Coronavirus and the effect on Public transport

drake70

StreetLight wrote: »

i wonder why they have omitted the AH, but have included the VH which arrived later.

Don't know, "I'm just a passenger"

I sang that in my head while typing

Ohmeha

Any chance the DART security personnel will be allowed to quiz anybody over their essential worker permit?

I've seen on trains/at the stations over the past 3 days at rush hours elderly people way over 70, mountain bikers, groups of teenagers and urinating drunks

john boye

devnull wrote: »

I agree that he's been strong on workers rights, but on public transport he's been someone who has time and time again made ideological based arguments rather than ones which are based on facts intended to deliberately mislead the public.

For example, last year he argued that Go-Ahead Ireland should be stripped of some bus routes because of poor performance whilst Dublin Bus had even worse performance data for the same period but he was completely silent about that.

Personally I care far more about the quality of public services than who operates them, but then I never have been someone who cares more about hammering home ideology, at the expense of the facts.

It's not so much his ideology that grates me as him himself (and that other Murphy spoofer). I've no time for a posh boy who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth spotting a niche and a quick route into the Dail by pretending to be some kind of voice for the voiceless. It's ridiculous.

StreetLight

devnull wrote: »

Are they still in service? Haven't seen one for a while.

Yes, definitely. Saw two of them today.

end of the road

john boye wrote: »

It's not so much his ideology that grates me as him himself (and that other Murphy spoofer). I've no time for a posh boy who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth spotting a niche and a quick route into the Dail by pretending to be some kind of voice for the voiceless. It's ridiculous.

he's not doing that though, he genuinely cares about the people of ireland from the worker to the most vulnerable.
yes he had a privilaged upbringing and recognising that and how fortunate he has been, he wants to give to society in the form of standing up for those without a voice, and those who will be criticized and derided when they do raise their voice.

devnull

From RTE:
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0401/1127910-dublin-bus-covid-19/

Dublin Bus has 582 surplus drivers due to the reduction in services because of the Covid-19 emergency - and the company has warned unions that funding constraints may materialise when the emergency ends.

The surplus arose following the decision by the National Transport Authority and the Government to reduce transport services to "Saturday Plus" levels because of a significant fall in passenger numbers.

Dublin Bus now wants staff to use up five days of annual leave between now and 5 May, when the situation will be reviewed.

According to a bulletin from the National Bus and Rail Union to members, the original company request on 29 March was for workers to take ten days of annual leave between now and the end of June.

However, following consultation with members, unions informed Dublin Bus that the proposal for drivers to take ten days annual leave between now and the end of June was "unacceptable" - and asked the company to consider other options before applying the annual leave option, including voluntary annual leave, swap rest days, special (unpaid leave), self-isolation, illness, all of which would be contingent on the circumstances at each garage.

Today, following a meeting this morning, that demand has been reduced to five days over the next month, with a review on 5 May.

The NBRU bulletin states that management expressed concerns about the future viability of the company in light of the wider industrial environment, including 400,000 job losses and pay cuts in a number of sectors.

It says Dublin Bus informed unions that despite being an essential service supplying public transport, the company "is not immune to the current crisis, and constraints over funding may materialise post crisis".

The company said all its proposals were designed to enable Dublin Bus to return to normal when the crisis abates.

The NBRU says that after some "acrimonious" debate, the company proposed that staff with accrued leave will be required to take it as per previous correspondence.

Drivers will have to use up to five days annual leave between today and 5 May, which they can take in a block, with the situation to be reviewed on that date.

Days can be added to the beginning and end of long or short weekends.

The NBRU reassured members that it had warned the company that at the May review, it will refuse to discuss any measures that would involve "delving any further into staff annual leave".

It states: "We are acutely aware that the 2009 recession resulted in a loss of over 200 marked in positions, and recruitment was frozen for several years"

Better Than Christ

john boye wrote: »

It's not so much his ideology that grates me as him himself (and that other Murphy spoofer). I've no time for a posh boy who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth spotting a niche and a quick route into the Dail by pretending to be some kind of voice for the voiceless. It's ridiculous.

I'd say it is his ideology, to be fair. I mean, do you get equally annoyed about working class people like Noel Rock joining Fine Gael?

There are a lot of people who took various quick routes to the Dáil, but Richard Boyd-Barrett is not one of them, and nor is Paul Murphy. It would have been easier to join Young Fine Gael, rather than toiling away as activists and councillors with fringe parties. There's no pretence - they both believe what they espouse, whether you agree with their views or not.

john boye

end of the road wrote: »

he's not doing that though, he genuinely cares about the people of ireland from the worker to the most vulnerable.
yes he had a privilaged upbringing and recognising that and how fortunate he has been, he wants to give to society in the form of standing up for those without a voice, and those who will be criticized and derided when they do raise their voice.

Well he's certainly got you hook, line and sinker.

Don't make me laugh. He certainly didn't seem to care very much for the working man when he and his party almost put a small company I worked for out of business during the recession by simply not paying a 5 figure bill. All correspondence was ignored for almost 2 years and only when legal action was threatened did the payment magically appear. They weren't the only political party we had trouble getting paid by but the rest of them didn't paint themselves as standing up for the working man. So don't give me that aul voice of the voiceless guff

GT89

Ohmeha wrote: »

Any chance the DART security personnel will be allowed to quiz anybody over their essential worker permit?

I've seen on trains/at the stations over the past 3 days at rush hours elderly people way over 70, mountain bikers, groups of teenagers and urinating drunks

No they are not Gardai. They have as much powers as any civilian ie citizens arrest.

Jamie2k9

devnull wrote: »

From RTE:
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0401/1127910-dublin-bus-covid-19/

Rather measured response from NBRU, not wanting to hit self destruct button yet!

john boye

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Rather measured response from NBRU, not wanting to hit self destruct button yet!

I'd guess this could be leading to a similar settlement to the Network Direct cuts

GT89

I'd say the argument from the drivers is that no matter what happens them being an essential service their jobs are going nowhere. No matter what happens DB will still exist after this is all over they will be bailed out by the government and rightly so. They are providing a service that will always be needed whether in times of economic prosperity or hardship.

PSO Public transport is a service that is not comparable to any other sector. The only way services could be cut is by halting recruitment as there will be a degree of natural wastage with retirements, people being forced out for medical reasons and people leaving although there would be less of this in a recession. By standing up for themselves they are standing up for your public transport services in order to prevent cutbacks from happening which would result in a worse service for the user.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

GT89 wrote: »

No they are not Gardai. They have as much powers as any civilian ie citizens arrest.

Has anyone been on the DART, is there security on each one?

Del.Monte

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Has anyone been on the DART, is there security on each one?

Why?

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Del.Monte wrote: »

Why?

I'm curious?

bk

GT89 wrote: »

I'd say the argument from the drivers is that no matter what happens them being an essential service their jobs are going nowhere. No matter what happens DB will still exist after this is all over they will be bailed out by the government and rightly so. They are providing a service that will always be needed whether in times of economic prosperity or hardship.

While DB is not going anywhere of course, you could unfortunately foresee the loss of hundreds of jobs as we did back in 2009.

When the pandemic ends, you could continue to see 100,000's of people still out of work for a few years and thus significant reduction in passenger numbers for a few years. It could lead to a Network Direct style reduction in frequency on routes.

Hopefully the pandemic ends quickly and the economy bounces back strongly, but unfortunately no certainty of that.

GT89

bk wrote: »

While DB is not going anywhere of course, you could unfortunately foresee the loss of hundreds of jobs as we did back in 2009.

When the pandemic ends, you could continue to see 100,000's of people still out of work for a few years and thus significant reduction in passenger numbers for a few years. It could lead to a Network Direct style reduction in frequency on routes.

Hopefully the pandemic ends quickly and the economy bounces back strongly, but unfortunately no certainty of that.

But iirc no DB driver was laid off during that period. Yes they could cut back the service without having to lay people off simply by putting an end to recruitment. As natural wastage would take hold with no new drivers to take the place of retirees.

bk

GT89 wrote: »

But iirc no DB driver was laid off during that period. Yes they could cut back the service without having to lay people off simply by putting an end to recruitment. As natural wastage would take hold with no new drivers to take the place of retirees.

According to this article there were to be compulsory redundancies back in the last recession:

https://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0116/112776-dublinbus/

And BE too had them.

Though maybe they didn't happen, the unions were fighting them at the time according to the above article.

Of course you are correct the first place to start would be with stopping new hiring, then early retirement and voluntary redundancy. But if those don't give you enough cuts, then compulsory redundancy becomes necessary.

Of course hopefully non of this is necessary.

john boye

bk wrote: »

According to this article there were to be compulsory redundancies back in the last recession:

https://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0116/112776-dublinbus/

And BE too had them.

Though maybe they didn't happen, the unions were fighting them at the time according to the above article.

Of course you are correct the first place to start would be with stopping new hiring, then early retirement and voluntary redundancy. But if those don't give you enough cuts, then compulsory redundancy becomes necessary.

Of course hopefully non of this is necessary.

DB wanted to lay off a large number of recent recruits. A deal was done to send off a similar number of senior drivers with a package instead.

GT89

GT89 wrote: »

By standing up for themselves they are standing up for your public transport services in order to prevent cutbacks from happening which would result in a worse service for the user.

Don't make me laugh

bk

Interestingly, there seems to be a big effort in DB depots to make sure that only newer dual door are being used. Of course this isn't quiet 100%, still some single door VT's and EV's still out and about, but most are parked up and it seems SG's are being transferred between depots to assist with this effort.

Looks like we could see the end of the single door buses sooner then any of us imagined. Of course once they return to a somewhat normal schedule, the EV's and some AX's will probably be back, at least at peak hours. But I don't think even they will last more then a year if there are reduced passenger numbers and once the new hybrids start arriving. Maybe stored/backups, but rarely out on service.

GT89

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Don't make me laugh

If staff numbers are cut back then service will also have to be cut back. Do you want service to be cut back?

bk

GT89 wrote: »

If staff numbers are cut back then service will also have to be cut back. Do you want service to be cut back?

No one wants the current situation. But if passenger numbers are way down and continue to be way down for the medium term, then it makes sense to cut back services.

If a route is operating every 5 minutes, but buses are half empty, then it wouldn't be the end of the world if it ends up being cut back to every 10 minutes.

Of course no one wants to see routes being completely cancelled or going to one an hour, or anything like that.

Over the last 2 or 3 years, there was a 10% increase in Dublin overall bus fleet, that mostly went to increasing frequencies on busy routes and thus capacity. A small pull back on frequency of such routes would be disappointing but also understandable if passenger numbers are way down.

dashcamdanny

Why cant drivers be layed off for 2 days a week and avail of the social welfare payments, like alot of other people. I

Can Dublin bus apply for the same relief payments that 30000 other business are doing?

bk

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Why cant drivers be layed off for 2 days a week and avail of the social welfare payments, like alot of other people. I

Can Dublin bus apply for the same relief payments that 30000 other business are doing?

I'd assume the CIE companies are already been supported to the tune of tens of millions by the government or they wouldn't still be operating.

The question is more a one of what happens when the pandemic ends and when both this government support and the COVID-19 payments ends.

When the pandemic ends, passenger numbers likely won't go straight back to pre-covid19 level's. It is likely 100,000's will continue to be out of work medium term and the covid19 payment of 350 ended and they will be on just 203 jobseekers payment and unlikely to be using the bus.

When the pandemic ends, I'd expect passenger numbers to return to the region of around 80% of the pre-covid19 levels for a year or two at least and I'd expect DB, etc. will all be expected to cut costs to meet those levels.

Zebra3

I think after things get back to "normal", there is a big possibility of more people working one or two days a week from home.

Leonard Hofstadter

Zebra3 wrote: »

I think after things get back to "normal", there is a big possibility of more people working one or two days a week from home.

This is a very real possibility. I'm sure many people are learning that actually, working from home can be done, and it's fine.

So then it begs the question as to why we all need to travel into and out of work on the bus, DART or Luas, or even drive every day?

Why are we creating all this stress, cost, traffic, carbon emissions for ourselves?

Perhaps if there was reduced traffic instead of making drivers redundant they could increase the frequency but keep the same number of buses, that way there would be a more frequent service for those who actually do need it, not making anyone redundant and delivering it at a lower cost for good measure.

GT89

bk wrote: »

I'd assume the CIE companies are already been supported to the tune of tens of millions by the government or they wouldn't still be operating.

The question is more a one of what happens when the pandemic ends and when both this government support and the COVID-19 payments ends.

When the pandemic ends, passenger numbers likely won't go straight back to pre-covid19 level's. It is likely 100,000's will continue to be out of work medium term and the covid19 payment of 350 ended and they will be on just 203 jobseekers payment and unlikely to be using the bus.

When the pandemic ends, I'd expect passenger numbers to return to the region of around 80% of the pre-covid19 levels for a year or two at least and I'd expect DB, etc. will all be expected to cut costs to meet those levels.

There's a fine balance though between cutting back service to a reasonable level to facilitate a fall in demand and cutting back service to extend where people will just go back to the car. Unfortunately during Network Direct some services were cut back where people did go back to the car. The NTA would have to thread very carefully when making service cuts. Jarrett Walker did a good piece on this.

https://humantransit.org/2020/03/covid-19-what-if-transit-runs-out-of-money.html

bk

GT89 wrote: »

There's a fine balance though between cutting back service to a reasonable level to facilitate a fall in demand and cutting back service to extend where people will just go back to the car. Unfortunately during Network Direct some services were cut back where people did go back to the car. The NTA would have to thread very carefully when making service cuts. Jarrett Walker did a good piece on this.

https://humantransit.org/2020/03/covid-19-what-if-transit-runs-out-of-money.html

I agree completely and Jarret in his article says almost exactly the same thing as I did earlier:

If you’re running a commuter bus every 7 minutes at rush hour, cut that to 10 or 12 or whatever the loads support.

I mentioned earlier cutting 5 minute routes to 10 minutes, same thing.

I think 10 minutes or 12 minutes is fine, I think the reliability of a service suffers big time when you increase to 20 minutes. All it takes is one cancellation for whatever reason and people are standing around for 40 minutes.

That is what the BE city service in Cork is like and it is terrible. My parents are on a 20 minute route, but it is pretty normal for you to stand around for an hour and finally two buses come at the same time. It just doesn't work and explains why no one in Cork uses the bus if they have any other option. It is just too unreliable.

I'd also agree with maintaining all day services and even 24 hour services.

But I'd say you could cut by about 10%, mostly focus on small reductions at peak time, without doing too much damage, but as you say, definitely a difficult balancing act and hopefully not necessary.

Zebra3 wrote: »

I think after things get back to "normal", there is a big possibility of more people working one or two days a week from home.

Big time, I believe we will see a massive shift in work practices. I think many managers concerns about it will disappear and people will find how handy it is and demand it.

Which brings up an interesting thought. The taxsaver ticket kind of works against this concept. To get the most value out of a taxsaver ticket, you are encouraged to use it as much as possible. Which doesn't really suit people who might be working from home 1 or 2 days a week.

Surely it would be in everyones interest to encourage as many people as possible to WFH. I'm not sure how exactly, but perhaps the taxsaver tickets could be restructured to encourage this, rather then punish you when you WFH.

Zebra3

Just as an aside to what I mentioned earlier, my brother works for an insurance company and for the last few years has been working two days at home a week.

The company's strategy behind this was that for events like "big snow" everybody would be used to working at home and the company could continue working as near to normal as possible.

Companies who weren't thinking like before the current situation will be more than likely looking that way in the future.

Jamie2k9

Zebra3 wrote: »

Just as an aside to what I mentioned earlier, my brother works for an insurance company and for the last few years has been working two days at home a week.

The company's strategy behind this was that for events like "big snow" everybody would be used to working at home and the company could continue working as near to normal as possible.

Companies who weren't thinking like before the current situation will be more than likely looking that way in the future.

Almost every major office type employer in Dublin have 1-2 days per week WFH policy. Its got to the stage if you don't you will struggle to attract people in certain industries.

Many people who commute by train to/from Dublin only do it 3-4 days per week and not everyday.

My company has given use 200 euro to purchase a second monitor and keyboard to be set up properly for WFH.

Zebra3

I don't think that is so prevalent with office staff in manufacturing though.

Zebra3

Zebra3 wrote: »

I don't think that is so prevalent with office staff in manufacturing though.

There was to a small extent, but most, over the last 3 years, transitioned to Office 365 which allowed for a lot of continuity regardless of how you are connected.

My own place transitioned from desktops to laptops for everyone over the last 2 years which, along with VPN's allowed everyone to carry on as normal for the last few weeks despite there being almost no support staff onsite, only production personnel.

Needless to say, if this was 5 years ago, yeesh, it doesnt bear thinking about

danois

Sorry if this is a silly question! I’ve been lucky enough to get a lift to work the last few days. I’ve to get the bus for the next few days. I checked the website (go ahead) and I can see they are running a Saturday plus schedule. I can’t see the actual timetable or updated schedule. Do I just go by normal Saturday one?

Thanks all

drake70

danois wrote: »

Sorry if this is a silly question! I’ve been lucky enough to get a lift to work the last few days. I’ve to get the bus for the next few days. I checked the website (go ahead) and I can see they are running a Saturday plus schedule. I can’t see the actual timetable or updated schedule. Do I just go by normal Saturday one?

Thanks all

https://www.goaheadireland.ie/new-timetables-commence-wednesday-1-april

Midnight_EG

danois wrote: »

Sorry if this is a silly question! I’ve been lucky enough to get a lift to work the last few days. I’ve to get the bus for the next few days. I checked the website (go ahead) and I can see they are running a Saturday plus schedule. I can’t see the actual timetable or updated schedule. Do I just go by normal Saturday one?

Thanks all

Yeah it's Saturday times plus a couple extra in the morning

Chris_5339762

Zebra3 wrote: »

I don't think that is so prevalent with office staff in manufacturing though.

Or office staff in a hospital for example. I've enquired, even now, and have been told no, in you come.

Davidth88

Not Irish based , but my niece works ( worked ) in the call centre for TFL ( Transport for London ) which rather bizarrely is in Scotland.

Anyway , they have basically closed the office and laid virtually everyone off ( around 100 people ) because all phone queries have dropped off a cliff .

I imagine TII or whoever have seen the same drop off to their telephone lines.

punisher5112

Davidth88 wrote: »

Not Irish based , but my niece works ( worked ) in the call centre for TFL ( Transport for London ) which rather bizarrely is in Scotland.

Anyway , they have basically closed the office and laid virtually everyone off ( around 100 people ) because all phone queries have dropped off a cliff .

I imagine TII or whoever have seen the same drop off to their telephone lines.

db has their own complaints department and you can be sure they're all cozy working from home and aren't laid of or will not be forced to take holidays or other measures....

punisher5112

Night Falls wrote: »

So much for worker solidarity.

This is what they want, put workers against each other.

devnull

Social Distancing on LUAS
https://twitter.com/Luas/status/1246017607028953089

Social Distancing on Bus Eireann / Expressway
https://twitter.com/Carnival_Sorts/status/1245000460634861568

punisher5112

The Luas ones will be tore off just like they're on the bus....

5 yesterday were on the floor and day before 3 that was 2 buses I had....

The Luas ones won't last anywhere near as long like that....

dashcamdanny

They are getting ignored and even robbed on my bus. Still azzholes drinking cans, rolling joints and leaving a ton of rubbish up the back as well. If im on the famous bad routes.

Other routes going into good areas . Bus looks like its not even been in service that day it so clean.

Jamie2k9

Lets be honest these stickers were a token gesture for staff driven by unions rather than passengers. They have been highly critical in particular of bus operators not enforcing social distancing.

If you ask me, a complete waste of money and paper...

cherryghost

IDK most buses I've seen whizz past my house has nearly everybody following the layout.

How Soon Is Now

Sitting on luas now coming home from work and might as well be hanging on a corner with all rest the scum cause I'm surrounded by them!

Getting fed up with this shouldn't be allowed where all just trying to get to and from where we have to go and no one wants to end up sick! The likes of these probably have all kinds never mind Coronavirus.

punisher5112

Had 12 signs pulled off, I wasn't on as I only took up, checked at terminus and of course a methadone bottle and an orange peel left on the seats one is only allowed use....

Dirty gloves and tissues too....

I'm on a fairly quiet route and would be a clean enough route...


No matter what trouble on them all....

bk

Interestingly (and horrifyingly) a scientific study came out a few days ago that shows that a violent sneeze can cause droplets to travel up to 8 meters.

https://www.slashgear.com/coronavirus-sneeze-social-distancing-study-says-6-feet-not-far-enough-31615002/

That doesn't make 2 meters useless, the study found more normal coughs, etc. fall inside 2 meters, so it still helps, but not a 100% guarantee either. And of course 8 meters isn't practical for those who need to go out and about.

As a result health authorities around the world seem to be scrambling to reconsider requiring everyone to wear a mask when in public. It will likely be the reality here in a few weeks.

dashcamdanny

punisher5112 wrote: »

Had 12 signs pulled off, I wasn't on as I only took up, checked at terminus and of course a methadone bottle and an orange peel left on the seats one is only allowed use....

Dirty gloves and tissues too....

I'm on a fairly quiet route and would be a clean enough route...


No matter what trouble on them all....

Some drunk free passer puked all over the floor and covered it up with several covid19 posters yesterday on mine.

Getting sick of dealing with these tramps.

punisher5112

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Some drunk free passer puked all over the floor and covered it up with several covid19 posters yesterday on mine.

Getting sick of dealing with these tramps.

If a driver feels anyone is intoxicated then they shouldn't carry.....

I won't be so hopefully I won't have that....

I see some buses with over 40 onboard and this is lunacy

This should be stamped out as these dirt birds will spread it and most likely take up bed spaces due to their drug habit....

Absolutely sick of it myself and I really think things need to change and now.