Impact of COVID-19 on motor industry?

jmreire

road_high wrote: »

Bizzare. Why would prices be going up? They are effectively three months older lying covered in dust in some lot!

If they are brand new, then the only reason that I could think of is that the dealership is trying to cash in on the 202 reg., Other wise, I haven't a clue, It defies logic......but thats Irish Car Dealer's for you..... :rolleyes:

bazz26

Add it on to take it off again in the shape of "reductions across the board", like a Harvey Norman sale.

SummerK

jmreire wrote: »

If they are brand new, then the only reason that I could think of is that the dealership is trying to cash in on the 202 reg., Other wise, I haven't a clue, It defies logic......but thats Irish Car Dealer's for you..... :rolleyes:

They are used. They were unsold for over 2 months at lower price point. Probably dealer anticipates increase in demand and hence hike in price ðŸ˜
I think it’s always customers trade in price goes down while dealer’s car value goes up.

L-M

Just from a sales point of view I would consider the last three days to be like the Black Friday of cars sales, but without any reductions.

We’ve been absolutely ran off our toes since we opened.

Just as a side note, can we just tell all our family and friend that this is NOT the time to be browsing for your car for “next year”. Honestly had a family of four try to come into the showroom yesterday with the above reason, lunacy.

greasepalm

In the service end do you notice a slight price rise in the sundries charge when getting car serviced and now having to use more gloves and sanitary cleaning.

mickdw

L-M wrote: »

Just from a sales point of view I would consider the last three days to be like the Black Friday of cars sales, but without any reductions.

We’ve been absolutely ran off our toes since we opened.

Just as a side note, can we just tell all our family and friend that this is NOT the time to be browsing for your car for “next year”. Honestly had a family of four try to come into the showroom yesterday with the above reason, lunacy.

Its surely not the time to be sight seeing around dealers but on the flip side, if dealers think they only need to open the doors to the customers who are going to buy today, they will be making a huge mistake. It got abit like this in the boom where the saleman was just an order taker and tended to scoff at customers who didnt 'look' like they could buy a car.

L-M

mickdw wrote: »

Its surely not the time to be sight seeing around dealers but on the flip side, if dealers think they only need to open the doors to the customers who are going to buy today, they will be making a huge mistake. It got abit like this in the boom where the saleman was just an order taker and tended to scoff at customers who didnt 'look' like they could buy a car.

No this is absolutely not the time for us to “scoff” at anyone. This is NOTHING like what you’re describing. Do your research remotely and pricing and we’ll be there to help in every way we can. But coming in browsing now 2 days after we’ve opened after a lockdown for a purchase next year is absolutely lunacy. There’ll be plenty of time for that in September and October and November. But depressingly, it’s exactly your attitude that makes me nervous going to work in the morning. People that just assume the salesman is the big bad wolf who’s “scoffing” at people for coming into the showroom just for a browse in the middle of the worst pandemic we’ll (hopefully) see in our lifetime.

MactheKnife90

Actually due to go look at a car in dealers tomorrow as I want to stay up the years slightly and keep the miles down. This thread has kind of put me off changing. I had intended to wait to see what the summer brings but my car value goes down with every other one I suppose. Any advice greatly appreciated.

L-M

MactheKnife90 wrote: »

Actually due to go look at a car in dealers tomorrow as I want to stay up the years slightly and keep the miles down. This thread has kind of put me off changing. I had intended to wait to see what the summer brings but my car value goes down with every other one I suppose. Any advice greatly appreciated.

There’ll be lots of garages keen to clear stock so definitely get shipping. Try do as much online as you can.

scooby77

L-M wrote: »

Just from a sales point of view I would consider the last three days to be like the Black Friday of cars sales, but without any reductions.

Browsing through market leaders websites agree no discounts. Some rewording of 201 deals, but few real interest reductions or discounts. Expected more to be honest. Maybe saving themselves for 202?

L-M

scooby77 wrote: »

Browsing through market leaders websites agree no discounts. Some rewording of 201 deals, but few real interest reductions or discounts. Expected more to be honest. Maybe saving themselves for 202?

Ive said in other threads I genuinely don’t believe the manufacturers can afford to discount the cars and I don’t think they will. But I’m open to being proved wrong

Toyotafanboi

greasepalm wrote: »

In the service end do you notice a slight price rise in the sundries charge when getting car serviced and now having to use more gloves and sanitary cleaning.

We're charging 20 euro per car for the ozone sanity clean, mandatory if you're booking a car in. The car is sanitied in the car park on arrival and again in the car park when it's finished. Finding it difficult to get into the rhythm of doing a bulk of cars this way but we are getting through them.

The beauty of it is two fold i suppose, it's apparently a very effective cleaning method which gives us and the customer a good level of security and anyone who wont pay the fee probably doesn't need work doing during the pandemic, so it weeds out the non essential jobs.

Seat, steering wheel and gearknob covers a paper floor mat and gloves for the tech were standard before any of this so you wont see new additional charges for this stuff.

You see lots of other forms of business passing on the PPE cost to the customer, so we are running with it to see how it goes. If we end up in a scenario where we have to drop it due to customer backlash or to stay competitive, we will probably still do the clean on the way in for our own protection but not the way out.

MactheKnife90

L-M wrote: »

There’ll be lots of garages keen to clear stock so definitely get shipping. Try do as much online as you can.

Thanks for your reply. Get shipping means get her sold I'm guessing. So I have a car tomorrow that would out me up a year younger and down to sub 10k from 40k miles that I can afford and have a stable job. The 1 year is putting me off a bit but then again it's the miles really isn't it?

L-M

MactheKnife90 wrote: »

Thanks for your reply. Get shipping means get her sold I'm guessing. So I have a car tomorrow that would out me up a year younger and down to sub 10k from 40k miles that I can afford and have a stable job. The 1 year is putting me off a bit but then again it's the miles really isn't it?

Sorry I meant get shopping.

I assume you’re changing model?

jprboy

MactheKnife90 wrote: »

Thanks for your reply. Get shipping means get her sold I'm guessing. So I have a car tomorrow that would out me up a year younger and down to sub 10k from 40k miles that I can afford and have a stable job. The 1 year is putting me off a bit but then again it's the miles really isn't it?

Typo, I reckon, probably meant shopping.

Edit: L-M beat me to it!

MactheKnife90

L-M wrote: »

Sorry I meant get shopping.

I assume you’re changing model?

Yeah moving to SUV from saloon.

mickdw

L-M wrote: »

No this is absolutely not the time for us to “scoff” at anyone. This is NOTHING like what you’re describing. Do your research remotely and pricing and we’ll be there to help in every way we can. But coming in browsing now 2 days after we’ve opened after a lockdown for a purchase next year is absolutely lunacy. There’ll be plenty of time for that in September and October and November. But depressingly, it’s exactly your attitude that makes me nervous going to work in the morning. People that just assume the salesman is the big bad wolf who’s “scoffing” at people for coming into the showroom just for a browse in the middle of the worst pandemic we’ll (hopefully) see in our lifetime.

Maybe these people you want to turn away could easily be persauded into a 202 plate. Someone saying they are looking for next year could be just waiting to see if there are pre reg offers going or whatever.
Surely getting on the forums and putting the word out not to visit your local dealer is crazy stuff.
What about people looking for factory orders for july or january? Maybe no factory orders available, maybe long delays. They wouldnt know the score - i certainly dont so when would you like to see them?
As busy as you are, I hope you are taking details from these nuisance customers because without a doubt, in a few months you will be begging them to come in for a look.

scooby77

L-M wrote: »

Ive said in other threads I genuinely don’t believe the manufacturers can afford to discount the cars and I don’t think they will. But I’m open to being proved wrong

Fair point, and I agree. But I think some could lower interest rates. VAG group pretty good with 0% on many models, Audi the exception, but in an era of global negative interest rates Toyota Ireland, for example, who have their own bank, could do better than 3.9%

mickdw

mickdw wrote: »

Maybe these people you want to turn away could easily be persauded into a 202 plate. Someone saying they are looking for next year could be just waiting to see if there are pre reg offers going or whatever.
.....

That's sales thought though..... Not all garages are into training salespeople like that.

L-M

mickdw wrote: »

Maybe these people you want to turn away could easily be persauded into a 202 plate. Someone saying they are looking for next year could be just waiting to see if there are pre reg offers going or whatever.
Surely getting on the forums and putting the word out not to visit your local dealer is crazy stuff.
What about people looking for factory orders for july or january? Maybe no factory orders available, maybe long delays. They wouldnt know the score - i certainly dont so when would you like to see them?
As busy as you are, I hope you are taking details from these nuisance customers because without a doubt, in a few months you will be begging them to come in for a look.

Sorry, I think you missed the point where I said a family of four came in the door.

There won’t be any factory orders for July nor will we be pricing anything for January or ordering them (because we can’t)

Let’s be realistic here and not nit pick. I’m not saying don’t come in. There’s a reason why Harvey Norman’s isn’t open, because it would just be full of ignorant people just coming in for a browse because they’re bored.

We’ve sold an awful lot of cars in the last few days and we’ve had an awful lot of enquiries and we’re managing them all very well and for the most part, people have the cop on.

Unfortunately these types of attitudes on this just highlight the reason we have to have 5 stages of re opening and why this virus is going to be around for a very long time.

Toyotafanboi

To be fair, if showrooms are anything like the hardware stores and the likes, it's obvious people who dont need anything are going to these places for a bit of a day out from being stuck in the house. You might end up impulse buying a tenners worth of pansies in woodies but the chances of being swayed into a car this weather when you are only in the showroom to get out of the house are slim to none I'd say.

Rows Grower

L-M wrote: »

Sorry, I think you missed the point where I said a family of four came in the door.

There won’t be any factory orders for July nor will we be pricing anything for January or ordering them (because we can’t)

Let’s be realistic here and not nit pick. I’m not saying don’t come in. There’s a reason why Harvey Norman’s isn’t open, because it would just be full of ignorant people just coming in for a browse because they’re bored.

We’ve sold an awful lot of cars in the last few days and we’ve had an awful lot of enquiries and we’re managing them all very well and for the most part, people have the cop on.

Unfortunately these types of attitudes on this just highlight the reason we have to have 5 stages of re opening and why this virus is going to be around for a very long time.

You are the epitome of the car sales person that has yet to realize you have peaked.

L-M

Rows Grower wrote: »

You are the epitome of the car sales person that has yet to realize you have peaked.

I really can’t understand why me saying a family of four is currently not welcome in our showrooms is me having “peaked”

moby2101

L-M wrote: »

I really can’t understand why me saying a family of four is currently not welcome in our showrooms is me having “peaked”

I get exactly where you're coming from

Its beyond belief that you have to reiterate this point time and time again.
Christ people by all means go and look ar a car on your own , leave the family at home.

L-M

moby2101 wrote: »

I get exactly where you're coming from

Its beyond belief that you have to reiterate this point time and time again.
Christ people by all means go and look ar a car on your own , leave the family at home.

Funny, I just mentioned the attitude of this forum to a friend of mine and he said that he was in the queue for B and Q today and a family of 3 were in front of him and they were turned away at the door.

Maybe b and q have peaked too.

Rows Grower

L-M wrote: »

Funny, I just mentioned the attitude of this forum to a friend of mine and he said that he was in the queue for B and Q today and a family of 3 were in front of him and they were turned away at the door.

Maybe b and q have peaked too.

When last did you hear of someone taking out a loan to purchase some thing from B&Q?

And when last did you hear of anyone arriving at a car sales show room making an impulse purchase?

Those days have gone.

mickdw

L-M wrote: »

Funny, I just mentioned the attitude of this forum to a friend of mine and he said that he was in the queue for B and Q today and a family of 3 were in front of him and they were turned away at the door.

Maybe b and q have peaked too.

There is abit of a difference. Both man and wife will need to view a car purchase. In these times, child minders are not possible so couples with kids will be your normal until September. If you business manager cannot see this already, they will soon be in trouble.
Some friendly signs outside the main entrance suggesting that where families wish to view a car, 1 parent should enter and that sales team would bring car to a family safe viewing area where social distancing could be maintained.
Anything is worth a try in these times. Certainly would make the customer feel like coming back instead of feeling like a nuisance.
Car sales by nature have a big advantage over many other forms of retail in dealing with covid but it is not being made use of.

User1998

I think the point he’s trying to make is that were in a global pandemic and there are families with children going to look at cars... for next year. Clearly they are just bored and looking to get out of the house. I completely get his frustration, I see the same families come into my job almost every day, they’re coming in every day because they are bored not because they need to and its really frustrating. Just because show rooms are open now doesn’t mean you should be wandering around one with no intention of buying, you should still be staying at home

Toyotafanboi

I think something worth noting aswell and I could be wrong is that "looking for a car for next year" is code for I'm not actually interested in anything. A bit like when you price someone and they say "it's food for thought".

Could be code for I'm having a look, am interested but need to have a look before needing your assistance.

It's impossible to know.

galwaytt

MactheKnife90 wrote: »

Actually due to go look at a car in dealers tomorrow as I want to stay up the years slightly and keep the miles down. This thread has kind of put me off changing. I had intended to wait to see what the summer brings but my car value goes down with every other one I suppose. Any advice greatly appreciated.

We're doing the same, but definitely changing. Mileage/condition for us, the year less important - albeit younger (if even a bit). Our last car was 4 yrs old when we bought it and had 39k kms on it a the time, selling 4 years later with 163k kms on it. Buying the lower-mileage car meant we got a very good, tight car with little wear - and it was down to us to keep it that way, instead of buying a newer number plate with higher miles. So we're going to do it again. Might only come up 2 years this time, but probably 3 - 4 if the right one comes along.

As for the value of your car going down over time, well unless you're buying new, so does the one you're looking to replace it with, so I wouldn't get hung up over that.

The only thing that matters is cost-to-change. Doesn't matter if your car is down 1k, if the 'new' one does similar, it's the same thing.

Like I said, we're actively looking to change, and the SO had her heart set on a GLC. Got to test drive it - didn't like it at all. Too much road noise, too 'boaty' (her words ). But we definitely saw cars on carzone being re-valued upwards during our search, one particular one by 2k in a week. Moot now anyway.

I would have to say, there are some garages that simply aren't great at communication, despite their ads. Maybe they're on a shoestring etc, but it doesn't help their cause.

At this point too I don't know if garages want to see trade-ins, or what their criteria is on that - which way in this market gets me the best price - straight sale, trade-in, or using some finance (even if I don't actually need it) ?? Thoughts on that from those on the Inside ?

The search continues.........E-class methinks

knifey_spoonie

Rows Grower wrote: »

When last did you hear of someone taking out a loan to purchase some thing from B&Q?

And when last did you hear of anyone arriving at a car sales show room making an impulse purchase?

Those days have gone.

Im pretty sure B&Q finance Kitchens and other big ticket items, but lets not get pedantic


Very rarely do people arrive and make an impulse purchase of a vehicle but everyday people arrive with no intention of buying a vehicle.

Take the example of a fella who arrived on site yesterday, He proceeded to tell me the only reason he was here, was "the wife doing the shopping and sure you can only have one person from each house in the shop" In normal circumstance that's not an issue but given the current situation we need to take 30 minutes to Ozone the car before and 30 Minutes after he views each of the 3 cars he is "interested" in.

I know its a simple solution buy more Ozone Machines but hey the are €2000 a piece, so you can't just do that.

Just because when you go to a showroom or garage to look at vehicle you are doing so because you have a genuine interest in purchasing that vehicle, does not mean everyone else does.

youtube!

I think the demand has hit the floor , very few are buying a second hand cars right now.

Example I use Carzones "value my car" feature which showed a figure of 10900.

Normally I would use this as a guide and add on a few hundred knowing customer will always look for a discount. So to give an example Valuation 10900 I will advertise at 11500 and usually get damn close to the original figure of 10,900.

Anyway I am well aware of the dire situation we are in so this time instead of advertising at 11500 I actually went the opposite way for the first time ever so I went in at only 9950. I hoped this would lead to a quick sale ....that was 2 weks ago. I have not received a single enquiry. It is dead dead dead. Prices will plummet .

L-M

youtube! wrote: »

I think the demand has hit the floor , very few are buying a second hand cars right now.

Example I use Carzones "value my car" feature which showed a figure of 10900.

Normally I would use this as a guide and add on a few hundred knowing customer will always look for a discount. So to give an example Valuation 10900 I will advertise at 11500 and usually get damn close to the original figure of 10,900.

Anyway I am well aware of the dire situation we are in so this time instead of advertising at 11500 I actually went the opposite way for the first time ever so I went in at only 9950. I hoped this would lead to a quick sale ....that was 2 weks ago. I have not received a single enquiry. It is dead dead dead. Prices will plummet .

As I said in my original post it’s very very far from dead. We, and many other garages I’ve spoken to, and very very busy. How long that will last who knows but the last 4 days have been mayhem

bazz26

I don't think you can fairly compare the private seller market to the dealer market at the moment. I'd say people are very frightened to go looking at cars for sale privately at present due to Covid-19. Remember that essential travel only is still in place and even at that people are conscious of going to view a car being sold privately when we are still in the grasp of a virus that is very infectious. No offense to private sellers but do you sanitize your car daily if your still using it or before/after a stranger comes to view it? There are a lot of unknowns with both a private buyer and private seller at the moment with this virus out there so the new normality is going to be different to the old. I know as both a potential buyer and a seller I'd be very apprehensive about having a stranger test drive my car or go test drive a stranger's car in the current world and I'm sure I'm not the only one. It will take time for that apprehension to dissipate.

youtube!

bazz26 wrote: »

I don't think you can fairly compare the private seller market to the dealer market at the moment. I'd say people are very frightened to go looking at cars for sale privately at present due to Covid-19. Remember that essential travel only is still in place and even at that people are conscious of going to view a car being sold privately when we are still in the grasp of a virus that is very infectious. No offense to private sellers but do you sanitize your car daily if your still using it or before/after a stranger comes to view it? There are a lot of unknowns with both a private buyer and private seller at the moment with this virus out there so the new normality is going to be different to the old. I know as both a potential buyer and a seller I'd be very apprehensive about having a stranger test drive my car or go test drive a stranger's car in the current world and I'm sure I'm not the only one. It will take time for that apprehension to dissipate.

Very fair point I should have said that it is the private car market that has died completely at this time.

is_that_so

youtube! wrote: »

Very fair point I should have said that it is the private car market that has died completely at this time.

Was passing a car dealer yesterday and there were people browsing and sitting in cars.

SummerK

youtube! wrote: »

Very fair point I should have said that it is the private car market that has died completely at this time.

Private market is down to a good extent but not completely dead as I sold my car yesterday.

youtube!

SummerK wrote: »

Private market is down to a good extent but not completely dead as I sold my car yesterday.

I can only go by my own experience that for the first time ever I have had no interest even though I have under priced the car

SummerK

youtube! wrote: »

I can only go by my own experience that for the first time ever I have had no interest even though I have under priced the car

I agree. Not a good time to sell car privately in my opinion. BTW what car are you selling?

quokula

I ordered a new car at the beginning of March that was originally due for delivery by the end of this month, obviously that's not happening but they just informed me it's been delayed to September. Do I have grounds to have my deposit refunded? Consumer advice seems to talk about "unreasonable" delays without defining what reasonable is.

galwaytt

youtube! wrote: »

I think the demand has hit the floor , very few are buying a second hand cars right now.

Example I use Carzones "value my car" feature which showed a figure of 10900.

Normally I would use this as a guide and add on a few hundred knowing customer will always look for a discount. So to give an example Valuation 10900 I will advertise at 11500 and usually get damn close to the original figure of 10,900.

Anyway I am well aware of the dire situation we are in so this time instead of advertising at 11500 I actually went the opposite way for the first time ever so I went in at only 9950. I hoped this would lead to a quick sale ....that was 2 weks ago. I have not received a single enquiry. It is dead dead dead. Prices will plummet .

Not my experience this week.

Emailed and phoned several garages. Messages taken by some, no response to others, some way after closing time as - he said himself - they're flat out during the day.

Whatever 'pent up demand' is may just shift attention from new to used/recent cars, but many people will still be changing.

Private sales, I don't know - I put up an ad last night, enquiry today. We'll see how it goes - an enquiry is not a sale, I'm well aware of that.

It's not that your 9950 is more or less than the comparable opposition. But there are always way more buyers in the pool for €5k cars than €10k cars, and like above, you might just see a migration downwards.

There again, I could be talking manure. #happens :pac:

bazz26

quokula wrote: »

I ordered a new car at the beginning of March that was originally due for delivery by the end of this month, obviously that's not happening but they just informed me it's been delayed to September. Do I have grounds to have my deposit refunded? Consumer advice seems to talk about "unreasonable" delays without defining what reasonable is.

Have you asked the dealer for it back?

jmreire

Just back from the local fuel station / car trade sales garage. Was talking to the owner, and asked him how the car sales were going . Never better he replied, 5 cars sold between yesterday and to day, only problem he said, is he cannot get his hands on the kind of cars he deals in. 2003-2017 etc...... various makes. So, its a bad wind that does not blow some one good. All of these recent sales were in the 2009-2014 bracket.

Do the fandango

Places might be busy now but forecasting for the remainder of the year is not a pretty picture.

Our brains at the top did some research and are predicting that not only is this year a write off, but next year will be too.

Eggs For Dinner

I'm interested in getting a new car and, at the moment, I can afford it. However, there is uncertainty about either wage cuts or job losses at work. Like the last bust, many people like myself will hold off and see how this pans out. That's what suppresses the economy

jmreire

Do the fandango wrote: »

Places might be busy now but forecasting for the remainder of the year is not a pretty picture.

Our brains at the top did some research and are predicting that not only is this year a write off, but next year will be too.

I think that the situation resembles a big ocean going container ship where the engine has a malfunction,and stops., So with the engine not producing enough power, it starts to slow down, but it's momentum keeps moving it forward, and this I think is what is happening at every level at the moment, not only here in Ireland, but world wide,...we will have to wait and see just how much power the engine is ( economy) able to produce to increase the forward momentum again. So far, its the momentum driving it.

galwaytt

Do the fandango wrote: »

Places might be busy now but forecasting for the remainder of the year is not a pretty picture.

Our brains at the top did some research and are predicting that not only is this year a write off, but next year will be too.

Anybody who thinks they can predict like that is off the wall. Nobody, nobody has any idea how anything will play out.

Consider (in this Irish context):

• Covid-19 and how that unfolds, or reoccurs or....or....
• Economy - fast restart, slow restart, no restart ?
• Oil prices - Up, Down, Up, Down.... ??
• Having a Government......will we ? and if so, there's the Greens. If they're in, economy goes down (more taxes), if they're out, the economy goes.... ?
• Maybe we're looking at another election
• Dang, nearly forgot Brexit - whodathunkit ?
• Currency. Euro strong or weak ?

Any one thing on there has the potential to be great/awful. Anyone who thinks they can with any degree of confidence predict what the future will be like on any one of those, let alone the bundle of them..............should be a millionaire by Monday.

Or, maybe, not.

Rows Grower

galwaytt wrote: »

Anybody who thinks they can predict like that is off the wall. Nobody, nobody has any idea how anything will play out.

Consider (in this Irish context):

• Covid-19 and how that unfolds, or reoccurs or....or....
• Economy - fast restart, slow restart, no restart ?
• Oil prices - Up, Down, Up, Down.... ??
• Having a Government......will we ? and if so, there's the Greens. If they're in, economy goes down (more taxes), if they're out, the economy goes.... ?
• Maybe we're looking at another election
• Dang, nearly forgot Brexit - whodathunkit ?
• Currency. Euro strong or weak ?

Any one thing on there has the potential to be great/awful. Anyone who thinks they can with any degree of confidence predict what the future will be like on any one of those, let alone the bundle of them..............should be a millionaire by Monday.

Or, maybe, not.

The sh*t has already hit the fan, but you carry on and bury your head in the sand if it makes you feel better.

galwaytt

galwaytt wrote: »

Anybody who thinks they can predict like that is off the wall. Nobody, nobody has any idea how anything will play out.

Consider (in this Irish context):

• Covid-19 and how that unfolds, or reoccurs or....or....
• Economy - fast restart, slow restart, no restart ?
• Oil prices - Up, Down, Up, Down.... ??
• Having a Government......will we ? and if so, there's the Greens. If they're in, economy goes down (more taxes), if they're out, the economy goes.... ?
• Maybe we're looking at another election
• Dang, nearly forgot Brexit - whodathunkit ?
• Currency. Euro strong or weak ?

Any one thing on there has the potential to be great/awful. Anyone who thinks they can with any degree of confidence predict what the future will be like on any one of those, let alone the bundle of them..............should be a millionaire by Monday.

Or, maybe, not.

There's nothing on that list that has the potential to be great.

It's ironic you reckon "Anyone who thinks they can with any degree of confidence predict what the future will be like on any one of those, let alone the bundle of them..............should be a millionaire by Monday." yet come out with this " there's the Greens. If they're in, economy goes down (more taxes)"