The UK response to Covid-19 [MOD WARNING 1ST POST]

Donald Trump

robinph wrote: »

All we have is a queue of people leaving a train station.

There hasn't been any pictures of overcrowding on the trains, and if the trains were as crowded as you imagine then why didn't the train company just stop them or prevent people boarding at intermediate stations? There is nothing I've seen to show crowded trains into Bournemouth, just that people got off a train.

I suspect that they didn't even travel by train. I think they could have been all teleported there coincidentally at the exact same time.


Beam me up Scotty!

Dave0301

robinph wrote: »

There is no gymnastics going on, just going based on what we see in the video which is a queue of people walking over a bridge, nothing more. Where are the pictures of people crowded on trains?

Has there been any statement from the train company about trains being overcrowded and no distancing being followed? Would think that would be top of the headlines if it had happened.

https://twitter.com/Oreshka/status/1276107254861832192

Train to Margate yesterday. Probably just a bad camera angle though.

theological

Dave0301 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Oreshka/status/1276107254861832192

Train to Margate yesterday. Probably just a bad camera angle though.

I agree that there needs to be some form of restricting how many get on trains. That should happen at key terminus stations in London and at key stations along the route.

We're still being told only use trains for essential travel. That should be stepped up with practical measures.

robinph

Dave0301 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Oreshka/status/1276107254861832192

Train to Margate yesterday. Probably just a bad camera angle though.

Thanks.

Now why did the train operate? Who sold that many people tickets? Why did the train conductor let more people on at each station?

The train is a totally controllable environment, unlike a 7 mile long beach, why was nobody taking responsibility to limit the numbers?

Still not concerned about the scenes on the beaches as people were outside in the sun and distancing from each other. The train itself is the riskiest thing those people seemed to do, not their destination of the beach.

J Mysterio

robinph wrote: »

Now why did the train operate? Who sold that many people tickets? Why did the train conductor let more people on at each station?

The train is a totally controllable environment... why was nobody taking responsibility to limit the numbers?

Bravo. Now you are asking the right questions. Another failure in UK response to Covid.

Next, pubs. It will be the 'patriotic duty' of all UK citizens to go to the pub.

Dave0301

robinph wrote: »

Thanks.

Now why did the train operate? Who sold that many people tickets? Why did the train conductor let more people on at each station?

The train is a totally controllable environment, unlike a 7 mile long beach, why was nobody taking responsibility to limit the numbers?

Still not concerned about the scenes on the beaches as people were outside in the sun and distancing from each other. The train itself is the riskiest thing those people seemed to do, not their destination of the beach.

I agree that the busy beaches are less likely transmission routes.

Yes, the number of passengers on the train should have been limited and there was a lack of proper use of face coverings as well.

The fault lies with people on that train as well as the train company though. There was probably only one conductor overseeing all of that.

The problem now is that a minority of people no longer want to follow the rules on lockdown and social distancing. It is of course a minority but it makes for attention grabbing headlines. Unfortunately when that happens there is not a lot local services can do, such as having to allow a rave with 8000 people play out a few weeks ago. They don't have the manpower to handle it.

robinph

J Mysterio wrote: »

Bravo. Now you are asking the right questions.

What was wrong with the questions about if the photos of beaches were actually showing the reality of the situation? People were distancing themselves on the beach. Yes there was a lot of people, but there was still plenty of space for people to get past each other without causing too much of a problem.

Until 20 minutes ago nobody had shown a clip of any crowding on the actual trains, so it was reasonable to ask if that was actually happening. A line of people leaving a train station doesn't tell you anything other than a train just arrived at a train station.

robinph

Dave0301 wrote: »

The fault lies with people on that train as well as the train company though. There was probably only one conductor overseeing all of that.

People should be able for a bit more awareness that they are likely not the only person to think of going to the beach on a sunny day.

But it really wouldn't take much for the train driver to refuse to stop at a station when they see a mass of people on the platform, or the conductor to not open the doors to let more people on, or the staff at the station to close the platform when they have a crowd turn up looking for tickets to the beach and they know then next train to arrive is only a couple of carriages long and already full. Each of those people with responsibility for the situation decided that one of the others in the chain should make the call rather than themselves, so they just let the train get over crowded when part of their function is surely to make that not happen in the first place.

If the bouncer at a pub/ club just kept on letting people in because there were people queuing up outside wanting to get in would they be doing their job properly? The train driver, conductor and each member of staff at each intermediate station is responsible for ensuring that the trains are not over crowded and they have no obligation to let everyone in just because they want to get on the train.

J Mysterio

Personal responsibility is a big thing and is very important, but ultimately, the fault lies with the government, and their disastrous handling of the pandemic in the UK.

Dave0301

robinph wrote: »

People should be able for a bit more awareness that they are likely not the only person to think of going to the beach on a sunny day.

But it really wouldn't take much for the train driver to refuse to stop at a station when they see a mass of people on the platform, or the conductor to not open the doors to let more people on, or the staff at the station to close the platform when they have a crowd turn up looking for tickets to the beach and they know then next train to arrive is only a couple of carriages long and already full. Each of those people with responsibility for the situation decided that one of the others in the chain should make the call rather than themselves, so they just let the train get over crowded when part of their function is surely to make that not happen in the first place.

If the bouncer at a pub/ club just kept on letting people in because there were people queuing up outside wanting to get in would they be doing their job properly? The train driver, conductor and each member of staff at each intermediate station is responsible for ensuring that the trains are not over crowded and they have no obligation to let everyone in just because they want to get on the train.

So people that were using the train for essential travel to say a job, should miss out on getting to work because a load of people have decided to go to the beach?

As I have said, the train company are at fault as well, but you seem happy to let the general public have a free pass for pretty much anything.

Whatever happened to that great British common sense we are meant to trust in?

nacho libre

theological wrote: »

People predicted carnage on the 11th of May, the 1st of June, and the 15th of June. We saw no such carnage, at least not in the data that matters.

This is because the risk of transmission in an outdoor setting is quite low, provided people are not in close proximity to each other and shouting and singing after a few drinks.
With this in mind the weeks after Boris leads the nation back to the pubs on July 4th is when we may well see troubling data.

robinph

Dave0301 wrote: »

So people that were using the train for essential travel to say a job, should miss out on getting to work because a load of people have decided to go to the beach?

As I have said, the train company are at fault as well, but you seem happy to let the general public have a free pass for pretty much anything.

Whatever happened to that great British common sense we are meant to trust in?

Not letting the public away with their decisions, but it's not down to any member of the public to say that the train is too crowded. They do need to take responsibility for their own actions, and far more people didn't go to the beach than did, but whoever is in charge of the trains was the person responsible for stopping them and they failed in their responsibility to the general public where that person should have said "no more".

J Mysterio

robinph wrote: »

Not letting the public away with their decisions, but it's not down to any member of the public to say that the train is too crowded. They do need to take responsibility for their own actions, and far more people didn't go to the beach than did, but whoever is in charge of the trains was the person responsible for stopping them and they failed in their responsibility to the general public where that person should have said "no more".

Do you know who has the power to enforce restrictions on public transport? The government.

Do you know who has the power to enforce restrictions on the beaches? The government.

People are flouting the restrictions because of the governments cack handed approach.

UK Independent wrote:

Health secretary Matt Hancock has warned that the government will take action if social distancing measures are ignored as thousands flocked to the south coast on the hottest day of the year.

Mr Hancock said on Thursday the government had the power to close public areas such as beaches if people flout safety restrictions. It comes as Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole council declared a major incident after services were "completely overstretched" as huge numbers of visitors crowded onto the beaches during the day.
Source

Donald Trump

robinph wrote: »

But it really wouldn't take much for the train driver to refuse to stop at a station when they see a mass of people on the platform

What about poor 80 year old Mary on her way home from her essential monthly doctors checkup...........she can just sit on the train as it whizzes past the station beside her house and walk home from the next empty station that the driver sees a few miles up the road.....


point is that the trains need to stop to let people off as well

BonnieSituation

Dave0301 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Oreshka/status/1276107254861832192

Train to Margate yesterday. Probably just a bad camera angle though.

Yeah, but the DART was full on the way to [insert coastal town name] today. I don't see you giving your bigoted views on that.

Muscles Schultz

Jump to 186 deaths today. What was it yesterday ? Any reason for this?

A Dub in Glasgo

https://twitter.com/RP131/status/1276523830723428353

A Dub in Glasgo

Muscles Schultz wrote: »

Jump to 186 deaths today. What was it yesterday ? Any reason for this?

149

Presumably the lag from infection. I suppose what they need to be tracking now is the daily hospital admittance

robinph

Donald Trump wrote: »

What about poor 80 year old Mary on her way home from her essential monthly doctors checkup...........she can just sit on the train as it whizzes past the station beside her house and walk home from the next empty station that the driver sees a few miles up the road.....


point is that the trains need to stop to let people off as well

Well she probably missed the letter that would have come through several month ago about the appointments being cancelled, over the phone or done by someone coming round to her house then I expect. I'd wonder what she thought was going on for the last 4 months when she'd turned up at the hospital and nobody was there to deal with her and why she kept on going back each month regardless.

But despite the daftness of your suggested case, if there is a safety issue with the train letting people on or off then the train staff are responsible for not allowing it to happen or at least to not make the situation worse. But it is still not a major problem to figure out to let Mary off the train as you can just stop it 50m short of the platform, clear the platform, close the station and then empty the train once it's clear. The individuals are still daft for trying to get on the train, but the train staff are negligent in allowing something to happen that they have ultimate power over stopping at that moment when the situation is actually occurring.

A Dub in Glasgo

I am not sure what you know about the railway, but your suggestion above is just daft

The train service in the UK is a turn up and go service apart from the WCML, ECML, MML and GWML which are now reservation only. There is no reasonable alternative that a train company can do if hundreds of people decide to travel on those turn up and go services other than to run the service and protect their staff. There is a possibility the unions will take matters into their own hands though

Polar101

UK Independent wrote:

Health secretary Matt Hancock has warned that the government will take action if social distancing measures are ignored as thousands flocked to the south coast on the hottest day of the year..

That is such a rubbish government response.

"We aren't doing anything about it, but we might if you lot don't behave". Absolutely useless and spineless.

blackcard

Muscles Schultz wrote: »

Jump to 186 deaths today. What was it yesterday ? Any reason for this?

149 and 154 the previous two days so not a huge jump. over 3 times the number of deaths today that Sweden had. 6 times more deaths than any other European country (If you don't county Russia as European). Yet on Sky News, they are talking about the UK monitoring other EU countries before allowing holidaymakers to come to the UK. They sort of assume that all other European countries will welcome visitors from the country with the most deaths from Covid-19. It is sort of bizarre that they don't realize how badly they have managed this crisis

Donald Trump

blackcard wrote: »

It is sort of bizarre that they don't realize how badly they have managed this crisis

Going on a small number of posters on here alone, there seems to be a lot of distraction of the form "hey, look over there at those guys, don't look at us". It's probably the same over there. They are probably being fed imagined anecdotes about a few people on the DART to Dun Laoighre in Dublin or death rates in a retirement home in Spain rather than what is happening in their own country.



And some of their papers would seemingly prefer to publish a front page of Nigel Farage pointing his finger out across an empty sea rather than a story highlighting the actual facts about their own people dying unnecessarily.

RobMc59

Donald Trump wrote: »

Going on a small number of posters on here alone, there seems to be a lot of distraction of the form "hey, look over there at those guys, don't look at us". It's probably the same over there. They are probably being fed imagined anecdotes about a few people on the DART to Dun Laoighre in Dublin or death rates in a retirement home in Spain rather than what is happening in their own country.



And some of their papers would seemingly prefer to publish a front page of Nigel Farage pointing his finger out across an empty sea rather than a story highlighting the actual facts about their own people dying unnecessarily.

An Irish thread devoted to Britain's response to covid and your accusing the British of whataboutery?Astonishing..

Jim_Hodge

Donald Trump wrote: »

Going on a small number of posters on here alone, there seems to be a lot of distraction of the form "hey, look over there at those guys, don't look at us". It's probably the same over there. They are probably being fed imagined anecdotes about a few people on the DART to Dun Laoighre in Dublin or death rates in a retirement home in Spain rather than what is happening in their own country.



And some of their papers would seemingly prefer to publish a front page of Nigel Farage pointing his finger out across an empty sea rather than a story highlighting the actual facts about their own people dying unnecessarily.

They obviously aren't being fed such images from Ireland. Believe it or not most of us have readily available daily access to British TV, Radio, and Newspapers. In fact many of us would use as much, if not more, UK based media than Irish.

Carfacemandog

RobMc59 wrote: »

An Irish thread devoted to Britain's response to covid and your accusing the British of whataboutary?Astonishing..

I'm not sure that you know what whataboutery is?

A Dub in Glasgo

https://twitter.com/RP131/status/1276892056846245888

ThatsNotMyCat

As an Irish person living in Britain I can tell you there is very little coverage of Ireland in the British news. Countries covered generally are Italy, Spain, US, Germany and Australia at the moment due to localized spikes.

I think people here are pretty aware how badly the UK government have handled things. Ignoring the minority who end up on the beach and news of course.

Harry Palmr

Talk this morning of a Leicester lock down on the way. Could be wide of the mark but interesting if it happens as a taste of things to come.

A Dub in Glasgo

Sunday Times article today

The government is preparing to impose the first local lockdown within days following a surge in coronavirus cases in Leicester, according to senior government sources.

Matt Hancock, the health secretary, has been examining the legislation required for the shutdown after it was revealed there have been 658 coronavirus cases in the Leicester area in the fortnight to June 16.

A source close to Hancock said he is “quite worried” and is considering “all options” for how to respond to the spike in cases, including imposing a localised lockdown.

Hancock has been receiving daily reports from Leicester after he sent in a mobile testing unit to help manage the outbreak last week.

The surge in cases follows an outbreak in food production plants and reports of large gatherings outside takeaway restaurants. There are also concerns that the disease has been spreading throughout the city’s large Asian community, who are more likely to live in multigenerational households.

There has been an outbreak of the coronavirus in seven food processing plants across the country in the past week, according to a Department of Health source.

Yesterday Samworth Brothers, which runs one of the UK’s largest sandwich production operations, confirmed that a “handful” of staff at its Leicester factory had contracted the virus.

It is understood that the government has the power to take action under the 1984 Public Health Act. However, it is unlikely that action will be taken before the middle of this week.

“So far local action has been taken to lock down individual hospitals and GP surgeries where there has been an outbreak but this situation is more serious than that, although no decision has yet been taken,” the source said.

Leicester’s mayor Sir Peter Soulsby has been presented with the latest data amid unconfirmed reports that the R value of infection has risen above the critical threshold of one.

Health officials are closely monitoring clusters of new cases linked to food processing plants, fuelling concerns about potential outbreaks similar to those seen in France, Germany and America.

Last week authorities in the German state of North Rhine-Westphalia reimposed lockdown restrictions in two districts after a spike in cases, with more than half a million people affected. One area has a meatpacking plant where more than 1,500 workers have tested positive.

In America, as many as 25,000 meat and poultry workers are reported to have contracted Covid-19, with at least 93 deaths.

The damp, cold indoor conditions in which food industry employees work have long been recognised as “perfect environments” for viral spread, as Lawrence Young, professor of molecular oncology at the Warwick University, has put it.

The danger arises not just from the close proximity of workers on food packing lines, but the cooler temperatures conducive to the survival of virus-containing droplets on surfaces.

There appears to be little scientific evidence of broader infection from the food handled by meat packers. By the time packaged goods reach the consumer, any virus particles are unlikely to have survived.

The Leicester outbreak follows a large cluster of cases at a chicken processing site in Anglesey, in Wales, where almost 300 workers have so far tested positive for the coronavirus, forcing the closure of the 2 Sisters Food Group plant.

Smaller outbreaks have also been reported in Wales, with more than 30 cases linked to the Kepak meat processing plant in Merthyr Tydfil and 70 more at Rowan Foods in Wrexham.

In England, an Asda-owned meat processing site in West Yorkshire shut down production after 165 workers tested positive earlier this month. The plant resumed limited production on Tuesday with temperature tests for returning workers.

Scientists have attributed the persistence of food industry outbreaks to several factors, from the need for workers to speak loudly or shout above the noise of plant machinery — potentially aiding the airborne spread of infected droplets — to the lack of daylight, helping the virus to survive.

Most countries regard their food plants as critical parts of the national infrastructure. Mass closures on safety grounds would disrupt food supplies and might lead to serious shortages.

American authorities have kept many of the country’s food chain facilities open despite the deaths of at least 74 workers among more than 20,000 confirmed cases of Covid-19 at 216 meatpacking plants in 33 states recorded up to June 6.

Andrew Bridgen, the Conservative MP for North West Leicestershire, said: “Unfortunately the fact that the government is having to contemplate specific measures to control the spread of the virus in Leicester is now unavoidable in order to protect the rest of the country.”

Dave0301

Priti Patel confirmed that they are concerned about Leicester on Marr just now.

Didn't give too much detail, but said they're looking to put additional support in place.

J Mysterio

+890 cases yesterday per https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

bob mcbob

Scotland could be Covid free by the end of summer.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53192024

A Dub in Glasgo

That will be difficult to sustain given the open border with England and the media and political pressure in Scotland to allow movement across it without quarantine

BBC wrote:

There have been no deaths in Scotland of people who tested positive for coronavirus for a third day running.

It is the eighth day overall this month that no new deaths have been reported within the previous 24 hours.

It means the number of Covid-19 deaths under this measure remains at 2,482 in Scotland.

Official government figures released on Sunday showed eight new confirmed cases of coronavirus, bringing the total number of positive tests to 18,236.

There were 778 people in hospital - 452 with a confirmed case, and 326 with suspected Covid-19 - on Saturday night, an overall drop of 68 on the previous day.

Five of the confirmed cases, plus a further eight with suspected Covid-19, were in intensive care.

A Dub in Glasgo

https://twitter.com/RP131/status/1277243261044867073

robinph

Dave0301 wrote: »

Priti Patel confirmed that they are concerned about Leicester on Marr just now.

Didn't give too much detail, but said they're looking to put additional support in place.

Radio news that kept on flitting in and out of my attention today seemed to be mostly the local MPs and mayor of Leicester giving out about Priti Patel not knowing what was actually going on and them having had more in depth conversations with Matt Hancock than she had. No suggestion of a local return to lockdown from them or from Matt Hancock according to them.

Seems to be about a rise in cases from the beginning of the month in Leicester, which means the trouble has potentially already passed as infection would have been another couple of weeks before that. Could be down to some specific incident or location over a month ago, if cases are no longer rising locally though then no point in returning to a local lockdown. Might make sense to hold off on opening the pubs and churches/ mosques locally for an extra few weeks though.

BonnieSituation

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Talk this morning of a Leicester lock down on the way. Could be wide of the mark but interesting if it happens as a taste of things to come.

Was mentioned by the commentator during Leicester v Chelsea.

Hopefully it'll focus minds.

s1ippy

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/boris-johnson-coronavirus-covid-19-michael-winterbottom-a9588026.html
For a bit of levity, here are plans for a TV series about Boris done by the guy who did 24H party people with the production company that did True Detective. Idris Elba will be playing Johnson.

Seth Brundle

One would be forgiven for thinking that he isn't taking any of this seriously...

https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/1277170629620510720

theological

Seth Brundle wrote: »

One would be forgiven for thinking that he isn't taking any of this seriously...

https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/1277170629620510720

To be fair, I think it is probably an appropriate answer if people are asking personal information about his health which should be between him and his doctor.

Some questions shouldn't be taken seriously.

Seth Brundle

theological wrote: »

To be fair, I think it is probably an appropriate answer if people are asking personal information about his health which should be between him and his doctor.

Some questions shouldn't be taken seriously.

It is not appropriate.
Is he not capable of answering a personal question like that with a diplomatic PFO rather than feeling the need to do a few push ups to demonstrate his point?

J Mysterio

901 new cases in UK yesterday.
Trending upwards again

theological

Seth Brundle wrote: »

It is not appropriate.
Is he not capable of answering a personal question like that with a diplomatic PFO rather than feeling the need to do a few push ups to demonstrate his point?

I would argue the question was irrelevant and potentially inappropriate.

He is able to continue doing his job, that would indicate that he is in good health. The intricate matters of his health are between him and his doctor.

Engaging in a bit of humour to signify that point is fine to me as long as this humour doesn't extend to more serious matters in respect to combatting the virus.

robinph

J Mysterio wrote: »

901 new cases in UK yesterday.
Trending upwards again

Since when is a sequence of 1118, 1380, 890, 901 showing a "trend" upwards?

PopePalpatine

Seth Brundle wrote: »

One would be forgiven for thinking that he isn't taking any of this seriously...

[.url]

https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/1277170629620510720[/url]

At least he's not topless on a horse.

J Mysterio

robinph wrote: »

Since when is a sequence of 1118, 1380, 890, 901 showing a "trend" upwards?

890 yesterday, 901 today.
Maybe not a trend. An increase.

Whatsisname

J Mysterio wrote: »

890 yesterday, 901 today.
Maybe not a trend. An increase.

815 today, so it went down.

https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/1277599474047647745?s=20

Donald Trump

theological wrote: »

To be fair, I think it is probably an appropriate answer if people are asking personal information about his health which should be between him and his doctor.

Some questions shouldn't be taken seriously.

I think if Claire Byrne is asked about how she is doing now after corona that she should just drop and give us 50.


As of course would be perfectly normal behaviour..........

A Dub in Glasgo

https://twitter.com/RP131/status/1277600349516378113

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

https://twitter.com/RP131/status/1277600349516378113

Next week is an important week for the UK. I wrote here 2 or 3 weeks ago that I thought that daily deaths (low 100s) and infections (1000 ish) would stabilise at this kind of level, that the government have decided that this is acceptable, and that this will be the baseline from which surges are managed. The curve is clearly flattened, and there is nothing to suggest that it steepens again downwards from here.

Its disappointing, as the numbers are not low enough to enable an effective track / trace / isolate process, and not low enough to give other countries the comfort to open up to the UK. The UK is stuck in a kind of no mans land - not bad enough to justify a substantial reversal of recent releases of restrictions, and not good enough to come out of this with any kind of confidence.