The UK response to Covid-19 [MOD WARNING 1ST POST]

fr336

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

The U.K. government is to exempt some leading U.S. actors, such as Tom Cruise, and crew from its 14-day travel quarantine to allow Hollywood blockbusters to resume production.

The move follows a conversation between culture secretary Oliver Dowden and Cruise last week about restarting filming on the latest “Mission: Impossible” movie. The exemption will allow “Mission: Impossible 7” – starring and produced by Cruise – to restart filming at Warner Bros. Studios Leavesden, near London.

https://variety.com/2020/film/global/u-k-to-offer-hollywood-actors-exemption-from-quarantine-rules-1234698349/

Mission Impossible sounds like the UK government's response to Covid.

fr336

S.M.B. wrote: »

I don't think there's any restriction on using the tube at this stage. Once you're opening up bars in Central London you're doing so knowing it will add a considerable amount of traffic on tubes and busses. I certainly can no longer judge anyone for getting on public transport for non essential purposes.

Trains still hardly anyone on them in busy town 30 miles out of London. Extremely good social distancing in that you can tell literally everyone who's got on has looked where people are and moved to the next seat a few rows away. Buses are packed as people flood the shopping centres for their daily "essentials" (yes I know it's not lockdown anymore but it still annoys me a bit).

Strazdas

fr336 wrote: »

Trains still hardly anyone on them in busy town 30 miles out of London. Extremely good social distancing in that you can tell literally everyone who's got on has looked where people are and moved to the next seat a few rows away. Buses are packed as people flood the shopping centres for their daily "essentials" (yes I know it's not lockdown anymore but it still annoys me a bit).

Are London buses not operating at reduced capacity? In Dublin, buses are only at 50% capacity, meaning you are not allowed sit beside someone (and must wear a mask).

fr336

Strazdas wrote: »

Are London buses not operating at reduced capacity? In Dublin, buses are only at 50% capacity, meaning you are not allowed sit beside someone (and must wear a mask).

They were but here they are increasing services tomorrow so no doubt London will be the same. There was a story last week that Transport for London was threatening bus drivers with disaplinary action if they asked people to wear a mask on their buses! You could not make it up!!

fr336

fr336 wrote: »

They were but here they are increasing services tomorrow so no doubt London will be the same. There was a story last week that Transport for London was threatening bus drivers with disaplinary action if they asked people to wear a mask on their buses! You could not make it up!!

Sounds fishy to me, considering it is a legal requirement.

https://metro.co.uk/2020/07/02/mask-wearing-tube-buses-enforced-tfl-staff-12933793/

BonnieSituation

theological wrote: »

I made a pretty reasonable point about the need for pubs to ensure safety and that's your response?

Interesting. I don't use "feels" to make my point, just good solid reason.

A handful of isolated cases being reported doesn't mean that the entire pub sector in the UK were being irresponsible with the new freedoms.

Even in respect to the reporting one could see that. Of the better examples on the BBC yesterday were a pub in Newcastle which had 2m long tables for customers to sit at with perspex screens, and the Truman Brewery in Walthamstow using the car park for serving customers at socially distanced tables.

There's no excuse for pubs not insisting on table service, and not limiting customers to ensure the social distancing guidance is set.

So we should ignore the handful of isolated places that are breaking regulations; but we should embrace the handful of isolated places you come up with to make your point?

Cmon!

This is all on top of the mess that the UK have been making of this from day one. Mon.

RobMc59

Kalico92 wrote: »

Definitely not as strong in England as in Scotland and Wales. My local sainsbury's were reminding people to bring one in future as folks were walking in. The guidelines have been such a farce over here. At each reopening stage in ROI there was and continues to be more precise and clear guidance

If there is better guidance in Ireland then the scenes in this link of people out and about in Dublin,no social distancing or masks is shocking.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/coronavirus-upsetting-scenes-dublin-pubs-22305850

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

If there is better guidance in Ireland then the scenes in this link of people out and about in Dublin,no social distancing or masks is shocking.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/coronavirus-upsetting-scenes-dublin-pubs-22305850

You best bring that up in the Ireland thread then Rob.

Funny though, my isolated incident in my local in Inchicore this weekend balances out the chaos on Dame Lane in the city centre. That's how this works, right?

RobMc59

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You best being that up in the Ireland thread there Rob.

Funny though, my isolated incident in my local in Inchicore this weekend balances out the chaos on Dame Lane in the city centre. That's how this works, right?

Why,what happened in your local?

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

Why,what happened in your local?

Nothing happened. Keep up Rob.

theological

BonnieSituation wrote: »

So we should ignore the handful of isolated places that are breaking regulations; but we should embrace the handful of isolated places you come up with to make your point?

Cmon!

This is all on top of the mess that the UK have been making of this from day one. Mon.

No. If you read my posts you'll see that's not what I'm saying.

In fact in the vast majority of the post you quoted from I said the following:

theological wrote: »

It is possible to ensure people distance. Table bookings should be mandatory. People shouldn't be allowed to stand. When the place is full they should turn people away.

There is no way contact tracing registration could be done with people standing in the street. If that can't be done, the pub should be closed.

Pubs should do what the guidance suggests or close. That was the vast point of the post you quoted.

How is that objectionable to you?

Enzokk

Is there any explanation for a "family office focused on broad investment trading" is the go to guys for a £250m contract to purchase masks?

https://twitter.com/juniordrblog/status/1280018951116853251?s=20

There has been some shocking contracts awarded for a lot of money during this crises. There is Andrew Mills that is an advisor for Liz Truss who is involved it seems with this company who received a contract for the masks. I wonder what the link is between financial advice and face masks?

Then another contract was awarded to an employment agency, worth £18.5m. Again, what is the link between looking for employees and face masks?

serfboard

Enzokk wrote: »

There has been some shocking contracts awarded for a lot of money during this crises.

Conservative Crony Capitalism. Is anyone really surprised?

RobMc59

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You best bring that up in the Ireland thread then Rob.

Funny though, my isolated incident in my local in Inchicore this weekend balances out the chaos on Dame Lane in the city centre. That's how this works, right?

I beg to differ, NI has controlled the virus admirably,it would be disastrous if these irresponsible idiots in Dublin carried the virus there so it is relevant on the UK covid thread.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

I beg to differ, NI has controlled the virus admirably,it would be disastrous if these irresponsible idiots in Dublin carried the virus there so it is relevant on the UK covid thread.

I'm sure they'll all be straight up to the The Glens of Antrim tomorrow.

You're a gas man.

RobMc59

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I'm sure they'll all be straight up to the The Glens of Antrim tomorrow.

You're a gas man.

Flippant remarks when presented with a valid point you can't dispute is just grand bonnie.
Well done.

Enzokk

You know what you do when you screwed and caused many extra deaths? You blame the people that were dealing with the crises that you compounded with your incompetence.

Fury as Boris Johnson accuses care homes over high Covid-19 death toll

Care leaders, unions and MPs have rounded on Boris Johnson after he accused care homes of failing to follow proper procedures amid the coronavirus crisis, saying the prime minister appeared to be shifting the blame for the high death toll.

...

Speaking during a visit to Goole in Yorkshire, Johnson said the pandemic had shown the need to “make sure we look after people better who are in social care”.

He went on: “We discovered too many care homes didn’t really follow the procedures in the way that they could have but we’re learning lessons the whole time. Most important is to fund them properly ... but we will also be looking at ways to make sure the care sector long term is properly organised and supported.”

Professor Moriarty

Enzokk wrote: »

You know what you do when you screwed and caused many extra deaths? You blame the people that were dealing with the crises that you compounded with your incompetence.

Fury as Boris Johnson accuses care homes over high Covid-19 death toll

He's playing to the aging Tory base. Pensioners worried about coronavirus and social care. Johnson blames care homes for coronavirus clusterfúck and promises improved social care for the elderly. Classic Cummings.

Joe_ Public

Mail and telegraph have been hammering away relentlessly at the government on the care homes debacle from the start. Cant predict how much long term damage it might do, but no way in hell this doesnt play badly for them. Social care tripped them up in 2017 and think they have even less of a clue how to deal with it now.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

Flippant remarks when presented with a valid point you can't dispute is just grand bonnie.
Well done.

I dunno Rob. I guess I don't really take seriously comments from a British person about putting up some sort of border in my country. Ya know?

PommieBast

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Mail and telegraph have been hammering away relentlessly at the government on the care homes debacle from the start. Cant predict how much long term damage it might do, but no way in hell this doesnt play badly for them. Social care tripped them up in 2017 and think they have even less of a clue how to deal with it now.

It says a lot when the likes of Jeremy Clarkson are considering voting Labour..



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/jeremy-clarkson-i-might-vote-for-keir-starmer-zftbxkn3r

is_that_so

Really not at all surprised at this. For all the positives of social media, it can do an awful lot of damage.

The findings come amid a significant rise in anti-vaccination sentiment on social media, and represent a threat to efforts to contain the disease.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2020/jul/07/almost-one-in-six-britons-say-would-refuse-covid-19-vaccine

Igotadose

is_that_so wrote: »

Really not at all surprised at this. For all the positives of social media, it can do an awful lot of damage.


https://www.theguardian.com/media/2020/jul/07/almost-one-in-six-britons-say-would-refuse-covid-19-vaccine

No vaccine, no treatment. Simples.

Dave0301

Enzokk wrote: »

You know what you do when you screwed and caused many extra deaths? You blame the people that were dealing with the crises that you compounded with your incompetence.

Fury as Boris Johnson accuses care homes over high Covid-19 death toll

The press release from Downing Street is just more spin and lies as well.

“Throughout this crisis, care homes have done a brilliant job under very difficult circumstances,” a spokesperson said.

“The PM was pointing out that nobody knew what the correct procedures were because the extent of asymptomatic transmission was not known at the time.”

Sharma is a weasel as well. Whatever you think about Kay Burley, she does at least push them for an answer, but like the press release they are trying to defend something that Boris didn't actually say. What he said was much more scathing and finger pointing towards care homes.

https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1280407210422685697

Dave0301

is_that_so wrote: »

Really not at all surprised at this. For all the positives of social media, it can do an awful lot of damage.


https://www.theguardian.com/media/2020/jul/07/almost-one-in-six-britons-say-would-refuse-covid-19-vaccine

It is an interesting one, as I am in no way an anti-vaxxer (have all my shots thanks very much), but I would definitely have reservations about a vaccine rushed through in record time.

Would it stop me getting it? No, of course not, but if you had anti-vaccine tendencies in the first place, I doubt you would be chomping at the bit to get this one.

Enzokk

Dave0301 wrote: »

The press release from Downing Street is just more spin and lies as well.



Sharma is a weasel as well. Whatever you think about Kay Burley, she does at least push them for an answer, but like the press release they are trying to defend something that Boris didn't actually say. What he said was much more scathing and finger pointing towards care homes.

https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1280407210422685697

I don't think they know that in their rush to explain away what Johnson said, they are making it worse for themselves. This is in the context that Johnson never apologises for anything. So they are trying to find the balance on not blaming care homes/workers and defending what he seems to have said. They are now saying nobody knew the correct procedures, except everyone knew. It wasn't the procedures but the lack of PPE and their choice to protect the NHS at the cost of the care home sector.

I expect this to carry on for a few days still. Someone will be thrown under a bus because Johnson made his idiotic mutterings, it just depends where it will land. He tried to pin it on care homes and now it is seemingly PHE who set the procedures. But why did other countries react so much better? They didn't have extra knowledge that made it easier for them.

The facts of their incompetence will always come back to hit them square in the face.

Dave0301

Enzokk wrote: »

I don't think they know that in their rush to explain away what Johnson said, they are making it worse for themselves. This is in the context that Johnson never apologises for anything. So they are trying to find the balance on not blaming care homes/workers and defending what he seems to have said. They are now saying nobody knew the correct procedures, except everyone knew. It wasn't the procedures but the lack of PPE and their choice to protect the NHS at the cost of the care home sector.

I expect this to carry on for a few days still. Someone will be thrown under a bus because Johnson made his idiotic mutterings, it just depends where it will land. He tried to pin it on care homes and now it is seemingly PHE who set the procedures. But why did other countries react so much better? They didn't have extra knowledge that made it easier for them.

The facts of their incompetence will always come back to hit them square in the face.

Yes, I agree. There are echos of the Cummings affair around this as well, due to their inability to eat a slice of humble pie.

An apology and some further clarification on what he actually meant to say would have seen it disappear quicker. Instead they are making a rod for their own back, one which I expect Starmer to use at PMQs tomorrow.

S.M.B.

Ultimately they do need to look 'at ways to make sure the care sector long term is properly organised and supported' as there are fundamental issues with the system which means it was always going to struggle. It's just a shocking way to make that point as it just looks like they are pointing fingers and now partially back tracking without apologising.

Also, the government themselves are responsible to a certain extent for ensuring the sector is properly regulated.

nacho libre

S.M.B. wrote: »

It's just a shocking way to make that point as it just looks like they are pointing fingers and now partially back tracking without apologising.
.

They are pointing fingers.
This is essentially what they have been doing all along. Admit nothing and deflect blame elsewhere, but, as has been pointed out by rushing to spin away the fallout, they are making things worse as you see in the interview with Burley. Boris's main problem is he likes the idea of being Prime Minister, but is actually out of his depth at being prime minister. With this in mind I would not be surprised if his term as prime minister is not a long one.

robinph

Enzokk wrote: »

I expect this to carry on for a few days still. Someone will be thrown under a bus...

At some point in the next couple of weeks they have an alternative distraction to throwing people under busses as they will have a Monday stat of zero deaths to proclaim as a handful get shuffled across to the Tuesday numbers instead and the following week can be full of headlines about how it's all over.

If they are not trying to distract us from something that happened the week before, keep your eyes peeled for whatever it is that they then try to hide on the Tuesday.

S.M.B.

Independent SAGE wrote:

INDEPENDENT SAGE – ON ACHIEVING A ZERO COVID UK, I.E. THE ELIMINATION OF THE VIRUS FROM THE UK

Independent SAGE believes that the UK government must fundamentally change its approach and we propose a new overarching strategic objective of achieving a Zero COVID UK, i.e. the elimination of the virus from the UK. We believe this should be informed by science and debated in public, and a proper coordinated strategy for its achievement developed with the public.

KEY POINTS

● The prospect of many thousands of further deaths from COVID-19 over the next nine months is unacceptable
● The UK government must propose and share with the public a strategic plan on how the pandemic is going to be managed in the next 12 months and of how the various measures against the pandemic fit together in an integrated plan.
● Independent SAGE believes that this strategy should have as its prime objective the achievement of a Zero COVID Britain and Ireland
● It will require the government in Whitehall to replace their failing NHS Test and Trace System with a fully-fledged and locally controlled system of Find, Test, Trace, Isolate, Support (FTTIS)
● The Republic of Ireland, Scotland and Northern Ireland already have very few deaths and very small numbers of new positive cases. They have the virus under control and are well placed to achieve elimination of the virus
● England and Wales will need to make the necessary efforts as soon as possible to achieve the same position
● Achieving elimination would allow all social distancing measures to be lifted, schools to be fully open, the hospitality and entertainment industries to reopen fully, revitalisation of the economy and a sense of much needed normality for the population.

This is more along the lines of what I've been wanting the Government to commit to as opposed to the current state where everyone appears to accept the current levels of infection.

serfboard

Downing St wrote:

The PM was pointing out that nobody knew what the correct procedures were

He certainly was not. What he said was:

Boris Johnson wrote:

We discovered too many care homes didn’t really follow the procedures

As always, Parody Boris Johnson has a tweet

A Dub in Glasgo

https://twitter.com/C4Ciaran/status/1280449636982042624

S.M.B.

S.M.B. wrote: »

This is more along the lines of what I've been wanting the Government to commit to as opposed to the current state where everyone appears to accept the current levels of infection.

Whitty has previously implied that the government see the current level of infections and deaths as being acceptable. Would definitely like to see a roll back of some aspects of the release of restrictions, and a push to get the infections down. I just dont think the British public will go for it

serfboard

Deleted User wrote: »

I just dont think the British public will go for it

Cummings and Johnson Sr. have made this much harder. "Will I hell obey your rules when you won't obey them yourselves", kinda thing.

S.M.B.

Deleted User wrote: »

Whitty has previously implied that the government see the current level of infections and deaths as being acceptable. Would definitely like to see a roll back of some aspects of the release of restrictions, and a push to get the infections down. I just dont think the British public will go for it

Whitty, Harries and others...

And the attitude of those in power hasn't helped getting the British public on board.

theological

Deleted User wrote: »

Whitty has previously implied that the government see the current level of infections and deaths as being acceptable. Would definitely like to see a roll back of some aspects of the release of restrictions, and a push to get the infections down. I just dont think the British public will go for it

You say this as if the rate of infections is staying flat and not continuing to decline.

However, they have done and continue to do so. Unless one means that the rate of decline is too slow, which is a fair argument, but there is a trade off with the other damage that that would cause.

I think the trade off from the current standpoint strikes a good balance.

By the by, I'm hoping we'll see a decent study come out on what elements of the lockdown measures actually worked to drive down transmission and what elements were unnecessary. The lockdown is only a measure that we apply when we don't know what actually works. It'd be great to learn what worked and what didn't and use those tools to continue to control the virus in a less extreme way going forward.

Harry Palmr

Predictably the reopening of pubs has resulted in the closing of some pubs due to Covid 19, probably see the same in Dublin centre esp assuming anyone can join the dots.

4068ac1elhodqr

Labour to win any future GE @3.25, after this Boris/Cummings fiasco (and perhaps worse yet to come before le brexit official)

At least they have a more likeable and competent leader, Jeremy was far too stale.

A Dub in Glasgo

https://twitter.com/RP131/status/1280557532302446592

Peregrinus

theological wrote: »

. . . By the by, I'm hoping we'll see a decent study come out on what elements of the lockdown measures actually worked to drive down transmission and what elements were unnecessary. The lockdown is only a measure that we apply when we don't know what actually works. It'd be great to learn what worked and what didn't and use those tools to continue to control the virus in a less extreme way going forward.

Couple of thoughts:

1. You are correct that it's important to find out what has worked and what has not.

2. But it won't be easy. Current experience of rising or falling infections, rising or falling death rates, etc, is the combined outcome of all the relevant factors and influences. Disentangling them after the event to identify the contribution, positive or negative, of each individual factor will be very difficult, technically speaking. You never get to run the experiment in which you apply just one measure, and can measure its impact without the distorting effect of other measures and other circumstances.

3. It will be difficult also for a second reason; it is politically charged. A great many people will be seeking either to influence the process, or to read or present the results, in a way that assigns blame to, or avoids blame for, particular political actors.

4. It's not a given that the outcome of the process will enable us "to control the virus in a less extreme way going forward". It could just as well indicate that more extreme measures are required - e.g. much tougher travel restrictions, or a greater degree of social distancing, or designating many more areas as zones where mask-wearing is mandatory and enforced, or much more intrusive monitoring of people's location and contacts.

5. What it should enable, though, is better allocation of resources. The necessary measures may be very restrictive, but if we know they work then we can allocate more resources to them and fewer to measures that are less significant. Plus, the more successfully we can control the spread of the infection, the fewer resources that we need to use, or to hold in reserve for, the treatment of the infection.

S.M.B.

This are the closest I've seen with both coming out this week but both struggle to really compare individual measures.

https://twitter.com/TobyMPhillips/status/1280095552995315712

https://twitter.com/TobyMPhillips/status/1280411072864956416

A Dub in Glasgo

https://twitter.com/RP131/status/1280923813069422594

theological

The KCL tracker have done an update to their model. The latest figures suggest that 23,459 have symptomatic COVID and they have changed the map to show how many cases per million are in a particular area which is good and probably more helpful than percentages at this stage in the pandemic. The procedure to calculate the symptomatic cases has been adjusted and there's a blog explaining why here. Apparently linking the test results has allowed them to come up with a more accurate figure.

robinph

Peregrinus wrote: »

Couple of thoughts:

1. You are correct that it's important to find out what has worked and what has not.

2. But it won't be easy. Current experience of rising or falling infections, rising or falling death rates, etc, is the combined outcome of all the relevant factors and influences. Disentangling them after the event to identify the contribution, positive or negative, of each individual factor will be very difficult, technically speaking. You never get to run the experiment in which you apply just one measure, and can measure its impact without the distorting effect of other measures and other circumstances.

3. It will be difficult also for a second reason; it is politically charged. A great many people will be seeking either to influence the process, or to read or present the results, in a way that assigns blame to, or avoids blame for, particular political actors.

4. It's not a given that the outcome of the process will enable us "to control the virus in a less extreme way going forward". It could just as well indicate that more extreme measures are required - e.g. much tougher travel restrictions, or a greater degree of social distancing, or designating many more areas as zones where mask-wearing is mandatory and enforced, or much more intrusive monitoring of people's location and contacts.

5. What it should enable, though, is better allocation of resources. The necessary measures may be very restrictive, but if we know they work then we can allocate more resources to them and fewer to measures that are less significant. Plus, the more successfully we can control the spread of the infection, the fewer resources that we need to use, or to hold in reserve for, the treatment of the infection.

Give it ten years or so for enough governments around the world to have changed and enough stats on how each country actually faired in coming out the other side and there will be people doing doctorates in trying to figure it all out based on the outline you've given, and of course all coming to completely different conclusions.

S.M.B.

Their estimate for the Borough of London I'm about to move to seems to tell an entirely different story to the official figures

Reading that post has added to my concerns about the effects of the virus beyond morbidity and R rates. Having to recategorise the ~50% who show symptoms after 13 days into a new group makes sense but adds to my worries about long term complications.

theological

S.M.B. wrote: »

Their estimate for the Borough of London I'm about to move to seems to tell an entirely different story to the official figures

Reading that post has added to my concerns about the effects of the virus beyond morbidity and R rates. Having to recategorise the ~50% who show symptoms after 13 days into a new group makes sense but adds to my worries about long term complications.

I think it's very helpful to recategorise the map at this stage in the pandemic so that you can see the differences in prevalence. The map with the percentages of active COVID per area was starting not to be that valuable considering most areas are under 1% at this stage.

Taking the overall number of active cases that they have on there the UK average is that is 1 case of active coronavirus per 2890 people. In my area the rate is better. In others it will be worse. It is helpful information that should inform people's risk appetites going forward in terms of how they respond to the easing of lockdown measures.

It is also interesting that the KCL figures and the ONS figures are starting to look pretty similar with the new model.

S.M.B.

Oh I agree it's better to have a more accurate estimate. I just have had major concerns over those who are displaying symptoms (and therefore underlying issues) long after they are infectious and the extent of this recalibration highlights just how common this is.

giveitholly

How long has it been since those scenes at the seaside in Bournemouth? And has there being any spike in cases relating to it?

giveitholly

giveitholly wrote: »

How long has it been since those scenes at the seaside in Bournemouth? And has there being any spike in cases relating to it?

None. And no black lives matter protest related spike either. Outside activity seems totally fine to me. If there’s no pub related spike in 2-3 weeks I’d be feeling pretty good about the outlook