Australian Response

ceadaoin.

mandrake04 wrote: »

The fines and the jail time is to protect the rest of who really don’t want your disease, don’t want to live like rats our human rights must be protected too.

This type of dehumanizing language around covid is quite disturbing. Really makes you see just how quickly people can turn on each other. When other humans are viewed simply as disease vectors and akin to plague rats, sure what's a few human rights violations? I mean, how can making criminals of citizens who are only trying to come home be justified? Literally sent to jail for exercising their actual human right to return to their country. People will justify anything in the name of covid it seems. What next? Good luck on your prison island ðŸ‘

ceadaoin.

Wolf359f wrote: »

Restrictions on inward travel, I don't believe restricts human rights (by reducing flights, you prevent people travelling, but don't bar them) If an Australian citizen arrived by sea (there's very few countries where you cannot arrive at a border by land or sea, within reason) they wouldn't be able to deny them entry. If Ireland for example tried restricting flights in the same manor, people would just use the land border with the North.

Preventing people leaving Australia, which I highly doubt the government is doing, would be a clear violation of human rights.

They want to put citizens in jail for travelling back into the country. They also want to do the same to people using NZ to leave the country without "permission", which is a thing now. Many people are being denied permission to leave, so they are preventing people from leaving as it is. Now with the added threat of jail if they try to get around it. That is a breach of the UN charter of human rights right there

Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

mandrake04

ceadaoin. wrote: »

This type of dehumanizing language around covid is quite disturbing. Really makes you see just how quickly people can turn on each other. When other humans are viewed simply as disease vectors and akin to plague rats, sure what's a few human rights violations? I mean, how can making criminals of citizens who are only trying to come home be justified? Literally sent to jail for exercising their actual human right to return to their country. People will justify anything in the name of covid it seems. What next? Good luck on your prison island ðŸ‘

Ha Ha, don’t worry it’s all normal where I am while the rest of the world is in the toilet tearing itself apart. I’m happy enough in my gilded cage, only it’s not really a cage as a dual citizen I have reason to leave when ever I want. LOL.

Getting back might be delayed but my citizenship is shared with Ireland who is also responsible for me, sure I could whinge and cry human rights but to reach the sanctuary and safety of a normal life that’s the price you pay.

I think it more like a refuge than a prison, sure once places like UK, Ireland and USA have no more lockdowns, masks, restrictions, etc whenever that will be .... then it’s safe for us to go back to normal. They are the canary in the mine, no point doing all the work and risk when you got a donkey to do it for you.

I have the choice to live they way I do or if I left the way you do, you don’t have that choice....you are just stuck with the sh!te.

ceadaoin.

mandrake04 wrote: »

Ha Ha, don’t worry it’s all normal where I am while the rest of the world is in the toilet tearing itself apart. I’m happy enough in my gilded cage, only it’s not really a cage as a dual citizen I have reason to leave when ever I want. LOL.

Getting back might be delayed but my citizenship is shared with Ireland who is also responsible for me, sure I could whinge and cry human rights but to reach the sanctuary and safety of a normal life that’s the price you pay.

I think it more like a refuge than a prison, sure once places like UK, Ireland and USA have no more lockdowns, masks, restrictions, etc whenever that will be .... then it’s safe for us to go back to normal. They are the canary in the mine, no point doing all the work and risk when you got a donkey to do it for you.

I have the choice to live they way I do or if I left the way you do, you don’t have that choice....you are just stuck with the sh!te.

I'm pretty happy living the way I do. I can be down on the vegas strip within 40 mins if I so wish (I don't, lol). go for dinner, gamble, drink, see a hockey game if there's one on. Go shopping anywhere I want. Pretty normal, aside from wearing a mask which will likely (hopefully)be done with soon. I've tickets booked for a gig in July. Anyone over the age of 16 can walk into a pharmacy and get a vaccine, free of charge. Things are looking good, light at the end of tunnel. you guys are still in the tunnel, a year behind, with no end in sight and no exit plan IMO.

Mellor

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Things are looking good, light at the end of tunnel. you guys are still in the tunnel, a year behind, with no end in sight and no exit plan IMO.

LMFAO
it was initially worse in Australia. By may the rest of the world overtook us. So in a way yes, Australia is behind. But we stayed where we were a year ago. The subsequent 12 months are simply not going to occur in Australia. Lunacy to suggest they will. And extreme bitterness to hope they will.

I’m glad you can go have a drink or a meal. We’ve been doing that in Australia for over 10 months now. Normality is great.

derfderf

ceadaoin. wrote: »

I'm pretty happy living the way I do. I can be down on the vegas strip within 40 mins if I so wish (I don't, lol). go for dinner, gamble, drink, see a hockey game if there's one on. Go shopping anywhere I want. Pretty normal, aside from wearing a mask which will likely (hopefully)be done with soon. I've tickets booked for a gig in July. Anyone over the age of 16 can walk into a pharmacy and get a vaccine, free of charge. Things are looking good, light at the end of tunnel. you guys are still in the tunnel, a year behind, with no end in sight and no exit plan IMO.

We can do all that too, and half a million people didn't have to die to get us to that point.

WoollyRedHat

Lack of empathy about plight of those basically being barred from leaving India to get back to Australia is disappointing to see, and yes you have normality and it's good to see, but have some humility about it.

The question of allowing repartition for citizens in India is a humane one and it's not a question of flying them back home and that's it, why hasn't Morrison expanded the Federal Quarantine facilities to deal with this situation?

Australia's response has gone from being once pragmatic, to dogmatic and potentially illegal.

ceadaoin.

derfderf wrote: »

We can do all that too, and half a million people didn't have to die to get us to that point.

Ok but what's the exit plan? First it was vaccines. Then it was even when everyone in aus is vaccinated you can't reopen. You know you're going to get cases when borders open, right? Its endemic in the rest of the world. You're happy to be shut off indefinitely? It's ok to put people in jail for the "crime" of coming home or leaving?

ceadaoin.

Mellor wrote: »

I’m glad you can go have a drink or a meal. We’ve been doing that in Australia for over 10 months now. Normality is great.

Been doing it here for a year too btw. Yes, it's great.

Mehapoy

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

Lack of empathy about plight of those basically being barred from leaving India to get back to Australia is disappointing to see, and yes you have normality and it's good to see, but have some humility about it.

The question of allowing repartition for citizens in India is a humane one and it's not a question of flying them back home and that's it, why hasn't Morrison expanded the Federal Quarantine facilities to deal with this situation?

Australia's response has gone from being once pragmatic, to dogmatic and potentially illegal.

Yes i tend to agree with this, there is a tendency now in australia to blitethy assume the rest of the world is in chaos and australia is the only country experiencing 'normality', the price for this is closing down the borders more and more to the rest of the world, now to the point of criminalising citizens trying to return to their home. Its a little scary to see how its passed without much comment or dissent in the media. There has always been a slight tendency to close australia off to the world, covid 19 has accelerated that which is strange considering the immigrant pop here.
As a dual citizen i find it disconcerting that i need permission from a civil servant to leave the country and return again, it will only get worse as basic humanity is pushed aside as the rest of the world is considered some sort of 28 days later scenario and an attitude of 'we dont need vaccines, we defeated covid, ra, ra, ra'

Mehapoy

Mehapoy wrote: »

Yes i tend to agree with this, there is a tendency now in australia to blitethy assume the rest of the world is in chaos and australia is the only country experiencing 'normality', the price for this is closing down the borders more and more to the rest of the world, now to the point of criminalising citizens trying to return to their home. Its a little scary to see how its passed without much comment or dissent in the media. There has always been a slight tendency to close australia off to the world, covid 19 has accelerated that which is strange considering the immigrant pop here.
As a dual citizen i find it disconcerting that i need permission from a civil servant to leave the country and return again, it will only get worse as basic humanity is pushed aside as the rest of the world is considered some sort of 28 days later scenario and an attitude of 'we dont need vaccines, we defeated covid, ra, ra, ra'

What I don't understand is why Australian citizens in India couldn't just quarantine for a fortnight after returning from India. Do a test before leaving India and then quarantine in Australia (and do a test at the end of the quarantine period if necessary). I don't see why that wouldn't work.

Gael23

I think Australia is heading for a potentially very dangerous situation.

I’ve read a few things from people saying the country is relatively Covid free so why do we need a vaccine, being exacerbated by the AZ issues which they are heavily reliant on

Peregrinus

Gortanna wrote: »

What I don't understand is why Australian citizens in India couldn't just quarantine for a fortnight after returning from India. Do a test before leaving India and then quarantine in Australia (and do a test at the end of the quarantine period if necessary). I don't see why that wouldn't work.

That has been the system up to now, and it has worked relatively well.

But recently there have been a number of cases of transmission within quarantine - people who didn't have Covid when they went into quarantine but did when they came out, having picked it up from someone else in quarantine - or quarantine workers, who pick it up from someone in quarantine. This always happened occasionally, but now it is happening significantly more frequently. Nobody is quite sure why. There's talk about the ventilation in hotel quarantine facilities facilitating aerosol transmisson, but the ventilation has been the same all along, so why are transmissions suddenly picking up now?

Whatever the reason, transmission within quarantine is a problem because vaccination has been slow, and if the community transmission becomes established things (starting from people who have left quarantine) it could take off very quickly. This is how Melbourne suffered a 4-month lockdown last year. That, or worse, could happen again.

75% of the recent transmissions within quarantine have been traced back to infected passengers who travelled from India. Hence the new ban on travelling from India.

is_that_so

Suggestion by tourism minister that borders could well remain closed until late 2022.

Australia is likely to remain shut to visitors until late 2022, the country's trade and tourism minister said, as another global coronavirus surge smashed hopes of a quick reopening.

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/0507/1214315-coronavirus-australia/

ceadaoin.

is_that_so wrote: »

Suggestion by tourism minister that borders could well remain closed until late 2022.



https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/0507/1214315-coronavirus-australia/

Well new zealand is planning to spend millions to "wean holiday towns off international tourism". I'd imagine Australia will follow suit, so don't expect a return to normal travel down under, ever. They know it's not going back to the way it was.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/06/new-zealand-tourism-changes-environment-milford-sound

ginoginelli

Peregrinus wrote: »

That has been the system up to now, and it has worked relatively well.

But recently there have been a number of cases of transmission within quarantine - people who didn't have Covid when they went into quarantine but did when they came out, having picked it up from someone else in quarantine - or quarantine workers, who pick it up from someone in quarantine. This always happened occasionally, but now it is happening significantly more frequently. Nobody is quite sure why. There's talk about the ventilation in hotel quarantine facilities facilitating aerosol transmisson, but the ventilation has been the same all along, so why are transmissions suddenly picking up now?

Whatever the reason, transmission within quarantine is a problem because vaccination has been slow, and if the community transmission becomes established things (starting from people who have left quarantine) it could take off very quickly. This is how Melbourne suffered a 4-month lockdown last year. That, or worse, could happen again.

75% of the recent transmissions within quarantine have been traced back to infected passengers who travelled from India. Hence the new ban on travelling from India.

I heard a lot of the hotel transmissions in oz are down to an insistence that the windows remain shut and the hotel air con is used instead, and that there is a somewhat reluctance to acknowledge aersol transmission and change the system in place, as it had been so successful in the past?

It would make sense for the inrease in cases in the hotels when you factor in the much more transmissable variants as well.

I'm not sure of the veracity of this so maybe somebody could clarify.

Very happy that Australia has been lucky enough to keep a lid on this. We haven't lost a year of our lives here. Ban on India was 100% justified. It's temporary too. Pragmatic too as here in Adelaide we had several days with traveller's arriving from india infected in ever increasing numbers. When states get too many incoming infections they halt incoming flights. South australia did this after what happened in Adelaide as mentioned.

Our system just about works because it doesn't get overwhelmed. Small numbers reduce the risk. Every state is bringing in a capped set of numbers so it's not a free for all to begin with.

Build more outback Howard Springs type facilities as that is what is lacking

normanoffside

I see the Aussie states are now imposing Mandatory hotel Quarantine on each other.


https://twitter.com/9NewsQueensland/status/1392035015345807362

Noo

normanoffside wrote: »

I see the Aussie states are now imposing Mandatory hotel Quarantine on each other.


https://twitter.com/9NewsQueensland/status/1392035015345807362

Interstate quarantine and border closures have been on/off for the whole pandemic, nothing new here. Its what has kept hotspots as just hotspots and stopped it spreading from one end of the country to the other.

Peregrinus

What Noo said. There were sweeping restrictions and quarantine requirements on interstate travel (and to some extent on intrastate travel) when the pandemic kicked off, but has it has been brought under control these have been greatly reduced and now they are exceptional, focussed and short-term.

You can now travel pretty freely within Australia most of the time, but people are still cautious because quarantine or other requirements can be introduced at very short notice.

My wife was to travel (from Perth) to Brisbane and then Sydney for work purposes last month. While she was in Brisbane, there was an incident of community transmission in Sydney, so she cancelled the Sydney leg of the trip, in case the situation in Sydney got worse while she was there, which might lead to WA requiring her to isolate or quarantine on her return home. So she came home from Brisbane, connecting through Melbourne. Then, after she got home, there was a case of community transmission Melbourne; as somebody who had recently arrived on a flight from Melbourne she was texted a list of Melbourne locations, dates and times and told that if she was in those locations at those times she was required to get herself tested as soon as possible, and to isolate until she got a clear result.

In summary: interstate travel is largely unrestricted, but is closely monitored. If there are incidents of community transmission they move fast to identify travellers who have been at risk of exposure and to impose control measures on them. So the risk of travelling is that, if you are unfortunate, you might have control measures imposed on you.

is_that_so

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Well new zealand is planning to spend millions to "wean holiday towns off international tourism". I'd imagine Australia will follow suit, so don't expect a return to normal travel down under, ever. They know it's not going back to the way it was.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/06/new-zealand-tourism-changes-environment-milford-sound

One of the challenges of a COVID strategy is that once you've chosen one it's very hard to reverse it. Britain did but that was very early on and the Swedes almost reluctantly added more restrictions. As has been stated elsewhere and as we are seeing mass vaccination is the ultimately the biggest element of that strategy. Without it it's just containment tools.

https://amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/may/14/almost-half-the-australians-booked-on-india-repatriation-flight-barred-after-covid-tests
India Australia travel restarted.
First flight:

70 out of 150 not allowed travel, either positive or close contact.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/may/14/the-hermit-kingdom-how-a-proudly-multicultural-country-became-fortress-australia
lol ffs the open borders crowd hate that australia has been successful

The hermit kingdom: how a proudly multicultural country became ‘fortress Australia’
As Covid wreaks havoc overseas Australia risks regressing culturally and economically if borders don’t reopen

ceadaoin.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/may/14/the-hermit-kingdom-how-a-proudly-multicultural-country-became-fortress-australia
lol ffs the open borders crowd hate that australia has been success

If/when they reopen they will get hammered with cases. There are tens of thousands of people stranded abroad, families and couples separated. People can't leave the country. They wanted to throw people in jail for the "crime" of coming home (not sure if they are going ahead with that). They live under the threat of lockdown at any moment when cases arise. They are losing billions of dollars from international students alone, not to mention tourism. And they dont seem have an exit plan from these measures. First it was vaccines, and now it isn't. Either way, borders aren't reopening this year.

Yeah, a real success.

Meanwhile, life is returning to normal elsewhere with little threat of future lockdowns or measures. I've said it time and time again, the only way out is through it. Unless of course, they actually do want to remain a hermit kingdom, then they will be mostly fine.

Come on youre not serious are you? Criticizing Australia for their covid response? One of the most successful responses in the world?

The exit plan is the vaccination program - just like everywhere else, anyway its been a good year for us here. 99% absolutely normal in my state

far better than importing the chaos that was the US/UK/India at their covid peak. Clearly Australians have had a better year than even Ireland. It is without doubt.

The economy here is doing better than most economies due the far less shut downs because of these policies. I`d much rather be strict on who comes in than have a year like Ireland had or anywhere else on Earth for that matter.

ceadaoin.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The exit plan is the vaccination program - just like everywhere else, anyway its been a good year for us here. 99% absolutely normal in my state

Is it though?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-12/pm-says-vaccine-timeline-could-vary-months/100135464

Under questioning from Labor in Parliament earlier on Wednesday, Mr Morrison did not say when all Australians would be immunised by either.

"That [the budget assumption] is not a policy statement nor is it a policy commitment," he said.

The budget assumes borders will remain closed until the middle of 2022, aside from certain exemptions.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-18/scott-morrison-no-hurry-open-australian-borders-to-travel/100077086

However, he warned the vaccination program was not a "silver bullet" and the nation would need to prepare for at least 1,000 coronavirus cases a week if restrictions were widely lifted.

Speaking from Adelaide on Sunday, Mr Morrison sought to reassure Australians that any decision to lift those restrictions would not be made lightly.

"Australia is in no hurry to open those borders, can I assure you," he said

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/international-borders-might-not-open-even-if-whole-country-is-vaccinated-greg-hunt-20210413-p57ixi.html

Mr Hunt suggested at a news conference in Canberra on Tuesday the international border closures could last much longer and stay in place even if the entire population had been vaccinated against the coronavirus.

“Vaccination alone is no guarantee that you can open up,” Mr Hunt said.

Doesn't seem like an actual plan tbh. More of a "let's see", like what parents say to their kids to stop them asking for stuff.

Pretty normal here the past year too, and now masks are on the way out. It's on the way to being over.

Yeah you're right we will never get vaccinated here and yes you're right we will just open the borders before we get vaccinated and ruin ourselves.

And clearly Australia is not in a position of power to demand arrivals to test negative and or be vaccinated. Also it is stupid to take our time with brand new vaccines.

Thanks for setting me straight and showing me that Australia is, in fact, in one of the worst positions.

mandrake04

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Is it though?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-12/pm-says-vaccine-timeline-could-vary-months/100135464



https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-18/scott-morrison-no-hurry-open-australian-borders-to-travel/100077086



https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/international-borders-might-not-open-even-if-whole-country-is-vaccinated-greg-hunt-20210413-p57ixi.html



Doesn't seem like an actual plan tbh. More of a "let's see", like what parents say to their kids to stop them asking for stuff.

Pretty normal here the past year too, and now masks are on the way out. It's on the way to being over.

That may be true its nearly over, but reality is overseas travel has proved to be overrated. Travel has been restricted (but still possible) for over a year and the country and tourism sectors have not imploded, instead of people going to virus infected sh!tholes like Bali and Europe they have holidayed at home where everything has been relatively normal. Australia has everything you want sun, beaches, snow, adventure, vineyards, theme parks etc

Aside Melbourne there hasn't been any prolonged 4-5 month lockdowns in the other 80% of the population.

Australia has 910 deaths or about 35 per million, compared to 1800 per million in USA and 991 per million in Ireland.


If you were to apply the US approach to Australia population they would have had 46,000 deaths and if you applied Ireland approach 25,000 deaths. And those were with lockdowns and restrictions.

In the meantime Australia have administered 3 million vaccines mostly the vulnerable in care homes etc and medical personnel, so even if we have a major outbreak now most of the very vulnerable probably wont succumb to the disease.

Sure some bitter people want to believe that Australia is in some kind of disadvantage because they are doing everything to prevent meltdowns that has happened elsewhere and keep a functioning healthy society, sure what's a few weeks of overseas travel? is it worth losing a year of your life living under restrictions... obviously to those bitter losers it is.

ceadaoin.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yeah you're right we will never get vaccinated here and yes you're right we will just open the borders before we get vaccinated and ruin ourselves.

And clearly Australia is not in a position of power to demand arrivals to test negative and or be vaccinated. Also it is stupid to take our time with brand new vaccines.

Thanks for setting me straight and showing me that Australia is, in fact, in one of the worst positions.

I didn't say that. Just that IMO zero covid is an unrealistic pipe dream and sooner the populace accepts that, the sooner you can get back to actual normal. Not overnight of course, but you cant stay shut off forever. Some level of cases has to be acceptable, especially with the most vulnerable vaccinated.

Out of interest what is happening with places like backpackers hostels and other places like bars, guided tours etc who cater almost exclusively to foreign visitors? Are they receiving a subsidy to keep them going? When I was there it seemed like a very large industry. Maybe with people not able to travel they are now catering to domestic visitors and doing well?

Wolf359f

mandrake04 wrote: »

That may be true its nearly over, but reality is overseas travel has proved to be overrated. Travel has been restricted (but still possible) for over a year and the country and tourism sectors have not imploded, instead of people going to virus infected sh!tholes like Bali and Europe they have holidayed at home where everything has been relatively normal. Australia has everything you want sun, beaches, snow, adventure, vineyards, theme parks etc
.

Domestic tourism can be seen as a massive boost, most locked down countries have seen domestic tourism boost the economy. But you're just moving money around within the country. Without international tourism, you're not bringing money into the country. Flip side, you're also not exporting it.

Of course there was/is extreme envy seeing life in Australia going on as normal, while most of the western were restricted. However, getting back to normalish life will be quicker for the west. This was flagged very early as a downside to a zero covid route.