Australian Response

mandrake04

Wolf359f wrote: »

Domestic tourism can be seen as a massive boost, most locked down countries have seen domestic tourism boost the economy. But you're just moving money around within the country. Without international tourism, you're not bringing money into the country. Flip side, you're also not exporting it.

Of course there was/is extreme envy seeing life in Australia going on as normal, while most of the western were restricted. However, getting back to normalish life will be quicker for the west. This was flagged very early as a downside to a zero covid route.

Tourism accounts for 3% GDP in Australia, considering that Australians are still able to holiday but at home means that there’s a better chance that business will survive. Even attractions like Australia Zoo, Uluru, Harbour bridge climbs, Movie world, Dreamworld had all high domestic patronage anyway although they lost some international visitors it’s not all totally gone.. Some of those places were closed for about 4 months but they are all currently operating and have since July last year. Places like those dingy hostels that attract backpackers are severely hit but on the farms backpackers picking crops have been replaced with Pacific Islanders who come to Australia to work because their own tourism is down.

Compared to tourism in Ireland that relies on the attraction of Irish hospitality and craic etc ie Pubs, restaurants have been more or less closed even to locals some like the wet pubs for over a year ....zero income...Zero tax collected.

When I tell people here that most businesses/shops/restaurants have been closed since mid October bar 3 weeks and now you have to pre-book to go to a shop like Pennies they just laugh.

All Australia has done has kept the virus out and hung on while vaccines have been developed, avoiding deaths and illness and keeping economy open where other countries have failed.

Yes a lot of envy and some schadenfreude, look at when Australia opened the bubble with NZ a few weeks ago and suspended flights from Perth the clowns rubbing their hands in glee...thinking the bubble was closed for the entire country yep they suspended the 6 weekly flights from Perth. The 47 from Sydney and the 76 from Melbourne that went ahead that week. Yep they didn’t take that into consideration.

But try reminding them they had lost more or less a year of their lives they won’t be getting back.

Opening to travel is still overrated even next year a lot of developing countries that people visit won’t be vaccinated but will probably still have restrictions hardly ideal for holidaying. I think there is nothing wrong with a cautious approach even with a fully vaccinated population let elsewhere be the canary in the mine.

Wolf359f

mandrake04 wrote: »

All Australia has done has kept the virus out and hung on while vaccines have been developed, avoiding deaths and illness and keeping economy open where other countries have failed.

Biggest sin Australia done was restrict citizens from coming home. No excuse for that. Other than that, if Australian citizens are happy not to travel abroad (which during a pandemic, why would you, other than medical/family emergencies etc...)
then the public will be onside.

Every country is going to take a financial hit, none have or none will avoid that.

mandrake04

Wolf359f wrote: »

Biggest sin Australia done was restrict citizens from coming home. No excuse for that. Other than that, if Australian citizens are happy not to travel abroad (which during a pandemic, why would you, other than medical/family emergencies etc...)
then the public will be onside.

Every country is going to take a financial hit, none have or none will avoid that.

unfortunate for those people but to most including some who were in that temporary situation a very forgivable sin, its a the lesser of two evils. And your preference is to have endless lockdowns and thousands of deaths? Good enough excuse I would say.

mandrake04

ginoginelli wrote: »

I heard a lot of the hotel transmissions in oz are down to an insistence that the windows remain shut and the hotel air con is used instead,and that there is a somewhat reluctance to acknowledge aersol transmission and change the system in place, as it had been so successful in the past?

It would make sense for the inrease in cases in the hotels when you factor in the much more transmissable variants as well.

I'm not sure of the veracity of this so maybe somebody could clarify.

sigh!!!...Load of rubbish

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-australia-56205627

https://www.eurosport.com/tennis/australian-open/2021/australian-open-2021-who-s-in-who-s-out-what-is-hard-quarantine-what-did-novak-djokovic-say_sto8078859/story.shtml

https://images.7news.com.au/publication/C-947904/db82632f829c454d64b63e92a04c15a1dfcc73fd-16x9-x0y0w2000h1125.png

Its nothing to do with any insistence, its to do with the design of the hotel which were all built pre-covid.

Many hotel rooms windows cant be opened for safety and A/C reasons. This is not unusual in many parts of the world.

https://www.traveller.com.au/why-dont-hotels-let-you-open-your-rooms-windows-h1ki91

They actually trying to source more hotels that have balconies and opening windows.

Dr Young also said Queensland Health were trying "our absolute best" to find hotels with balconies or windows that could open.

However, most hotels in Brisbane are air-conditioned due to its subtropical climate.

Health Minister Yvette D'Ath announced that dancing will be allowed in venues again after the state went 86 days without a new case in the community.

She said dancing indoors at pubs, bars, restaurants and clubs would be allowed from 1am on Monday.

is_that_so

One of an increasing number of pieces with questions about the Australian approach.

As Covid wreaks havoc overseas Australia risks regressing culturally and economically if borders don’t reopen

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/may/14/the-hermit-kingdom-how-a-proudly-multicultural-country-became-fortress-australia

Jealousy is incredibly unflattering on people.

is_that_so

Deleted User wrote: »

Jealousy is incredibly unflattering on people.

Not offering an opinion on that report but by the looks of things they are in Australia and might even be Australian.

Peregrinus

Yup, he's an Australian journalist.

Just to be clear, Australians are very conscious of the negative impact of border closures. Although a few niche sectors have been hit - overseas tourism being the obvious one - there has been surprisingly little economic impact. International trade is flowing unimpeded, and the Australia economy is on the whole performing very strongly. There's a loss of benefit in not being able to holiday overseas, but most people have little difficulty in balancing the downside of no foreign holidays versus the downside of widespread infection in Australia; they'd rather have the no foreign holidays, thanks.

The main impact is on family relationships. A large proportion of the Australian population have close family who live in other countries — it comes with being a country that receives large numbers of immigrants. I'm in this situation myself; I haven't seen my mother, who is 86, since before the pandemic started and I don't know when I will again. And, when someone is 86, that's not a trivial thing. I have friends who have had close relatives - includign parents - die abroad; they couldn't go to see them when they knew they were dying; they couldn't go to the funeral; they haven't been able to be with family since. That is hard.

It is possible to get permission to leave Australia if, e.g., someone close to you is dying, or is in need of your care, or whatever. But it's not always practically possible since there are very few flights, and they are very expensive (and keep gettign cancelled, rescheduled, etc) and if you travel it may be difficult to return, or you may be required to undergo hotel quarantine on your return, or both. For a lot of people economic considerations mean they cannot run these kinds of risks.

So, no, don't imagine that Australians think everything is just fine and dandy. They are acutely conscious of the pain that they themselves, or certainly people they know, are suffering. They just think, overwhelmingly, that it has been the right choice; that the pain of a pandemic within the country would be so much greater.

The balance of opinion may change as vaccination progresses within Australia (though this is happening slowly). The government will want to keep travel tightly controlled until vaccination is well advance not only in Australia but in countries to which Australians travel. It remains to be seen how the public will feel about that, if the time comes when Australia is largely vaccinated but other countries are not.

Mehapoy

From the age newspaper:
'Almost one-third of adult Australians say they’re unlikely to get COVID vaccination: survey
https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/almost-one-third-of-adult-australians-say-they-re-unlikely-to-get-covid-vaccination-survey-20210518-p57szo.html?btis
In the middle of a heated debate about when to open Australia’s borders, 15 per cent of adults surveyed said they were “not at all likely” and 14 per cent “not very likely” to be vaccinated in the months ahead.'

Think Australia lifting border restrictions in 2022 is optimistic at this stage, alot of Australians are happy keeping borders closed, and the government are getting good ratings because of it. There is a bit of a xenophobic strain of not wanting to engage with the outside here that will only grow now that the rest of the world is a virus infected sh*thole apparently. Zero covid is the only acceptable result now and the state and federal can trample over as many rights as needed to achieve that.
In Melbourne anyway as long as they can go to the 'footy' alot are happy to never leave the state nevermind the country.

derfderf

Mehapoy wrote: »

From the age newspaper:
'Almost one-third of adult Australians say they’re unlikely to get COVID vaccination: survey
https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/almost-one-third-of-adult-australians-say-they-re-unlikely-to-get-covid-vaccination-survey-20210518-p57szo.html?btis
In the middle of a heated debate about when to open Australia’s borders, 15 per cent of adults surveyed said they were “not at all likely” and 14 per cent “not very likely” to be vaccinated in the months ahead.

This was always going to be an issue. Looking at covid from Australia is like watching Ebola if you're in Europe. You know it's terrible, but it's not affecting you. It's very easy to think the vaccine isn't needed.

Peregrinus

derfderf wrote: »

This was always going to be an issue. Looking at covid from Australia is like watching Ebola if you're in Europe. You know it's terrible, but it's not affecting you. It's very easy to think the vaccine isn't needed.

This. I note that, per the newspaper report, the 29% were saying that they were not at all likely, or not very likely, to get vaccinated in the months ahead, and that "many people believe there is no rush to take a jab while the international borders are closed".

In other words, they see little immediate advantage to being vaccinated, to offset whatever concerns they may have about the novelty of the vaccine, possible side effects, etc.

Their willingness to vaccinate may change as the balance of incentives changes. When border opening is closer, and when there is more experience of the vaccine and more is known about side effects, etc, the balance of risk shifts. Or, of course, if there is an outbreak in Australia.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

Some of the posts on this thread are hilarious. Insisting that Australia will actually be worse off than the rest of the world in the long run because it didn't allow itself to be hit hard by COVID is a nonsense.

Wolf359f wrote: »

Of course there was/is extreme envy seeing life in Australia going on as normal........ However, getting back to normalish life will be quicker for the west.

See what's wrong with this sentence? 'Normalish' life has been going on in Australia and NZ for most of the last 12 months. The only real difference being restrictions on international travel, which matters bog all when you live so far from everywhere else at any rate! Of course tourism has been hit, but I don't think many people in either country would swap zero COVID for tourism dollars at this stage.

Mehapoy

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote: »

Some of the posts on this thread are hilarious. Insisting that Australia will actually be worse off than the rest of the world in the long run because it didn't allow itself to be hit hard by COVID is a nonsense.



See what's wrong with this sentence? 'Normalish' life has been going on in Australia and NZ for most of the last 12 months. The only real difference being restrictions on international travel, which matters bog all when you live so far from everywhere else at any rate! Of course tourism has been hit, but I don't think many people in either country would swap zero COVID for tourism dollars at this stage.

I think it's more nuanced than 'let it run rampant and let thousands die because I want to go on holiday' I think there's a case that Australia may have not thought of the exit strategy out of the virus. These things get politicised very quickly so it becomes a borders open vs borders shut debate.
'normalish' true, but the state government can strand people in another state at the drop of a hat if there's an outbreak of more than 1 case of community transmission in another state and you need permission to leave the country and return.
While it's great that there is no covid and life can go on as normalish as you say, personally I think people's concerns are how do we get out of this situation now. Some people would like the border restrictions to be eased and while most want to keep things shut, some with ulterior motives I think.
It's a vicious cycle really, people don't want the vaccine while the borders are shut, while the borders remain shut as people don't take up the vaccine.

Peregrinus

Mehapoy wrote: »

I think it's more nuanced than 'let it run rampant and let thousands die because I want to go on holiday' I think there's a case that Australia may have not thought of the exit strategy out of the virus. These things get politicised very quickly so it becomes a borders open vs borders shut debate.

Australia isn't alone here. No matter what pandemic response measures you take, you have the problem of an exit strategy. And nobody really thought the exit strategy through at the beginning because they couldn't; they didn't know how the pandemic would unfold. And of course we've seen abundant examples of countries that exited their measures too soon and/or were too slow to reapply measures when that became necessary - i.e. when they developed an exit strategy, it proved to be a poor one. Australia - so far - has avoided those errors, at any rate.

Mehapoy wrote: »

'normalish' true, but the state government can strand people in another state at the drop of a hat if there's an outbreak of more than 1 case of community transmission in another state and you need permission to leave the country and return.

Sure. And these are heavy restrictions. But they are, on the whole, less heavy than the restrictions that have been applied in many other countries, not least because they are closely targetted and, mostly, pretty short-term. And they remain enduringly popular because they have worked very well, which is more than you can say of the restrictions imposed in many other countries.

Mehapoy wrote: »

While it's great that there is no covid and life can go on as normalish as you say, personally I think people's concerns are how do we get out of this situation now. Some people would like the border restrictions to be eased and while most want to keep things shut, some with ulterior motives I think.

But we'd have those concerns anyway, no matter what pandemic control measures we had adopted. And it's worth noting that we have been able to substantially ease many of the control measures that were in place, without triggering significant outbreaks, so it's not an inherently impossible task.

I'm not sure what you mean by "ulterior motives" for keeping the borders shut. Apart from the obvious benefit of successfully controlling the pandemic, which is hardly an "ulterior motive" for anyone, I find it hard to think of any person or group that would derive private or sectional benefit from the border closures. Domestic tourism is booming, right enough, but the people providing tourism services to the domestic market mostly also provide them to the overseas market, and I suspect for them it's pretty much swings and roundabouts; they are not net beneficiaries of the border closures. What kind of ulterior motives do you have in mind, and who do you think would have those motives?

(By contrast, I can think of lots of people who would have "ulterior motives" for wanting the border closures removed. But you don't mention them.)

Mehapoy wrote: »

It's a vicious cycle really, people don't want the vaccine while the borders are shut, while the borders remain shut as people don't take up the vaccine.

Yes, I agree. One way to break the cycle might be to open the borders - or at least substantially ease restrictions - but only for people who are fully vaccinated. But that would seem harsh on people who, e.g., have medical reasons for not being vaccinated.

Gael23

Peregrinus wrote: »

This. I note that, per the newspaper report, the 29% were saying that they were not at all likely, or not very likely, to get vaccinated in the months ahead, and that "many people believe there is no rush to take a jab while the international borders are closed".

In other words, they see little immediate advantage to being vaccinated, to offset whatever concerns they may have about the novelty of the vaccine, possible side effects, etc.

Their willingness to vaccinate may change as the balance of incentives changes. When border opening is closer, and when there is more experience of the vaccine and more is known about side effects, etc, the balance of risk shifts. Or, of course, if there is an outbreak in Australia.

Was talking to someone I know living in Australia and they said they don’t think they need the vaccine because there’s no Covid in Australia

Peregrinus

Gael23 wrote: »

Was talking to someone I know living in Australia and they said they don’t think they need the vaccine because there’s no Covid in Australia

Yeah, but you get idiots everywhere. There are people in Ireland who think that they don't need the vaccine because they are young and healthy and would likely deal easily with a dose of Covid.

derfderf

Peregrinus wrote: »

The main impact is on family relationships. A large proportion of the Australian population have close family who live in other countries — it comes with being a country that receives large numbers of immigrants. I'm in this situation myself; I haven't seen my mother, who is 86, since before the pandemic started and I don't know when I will again. And, when someone is 86, that's not a trivial thing. I have friends who have had close relatives - includign parents - die abroad; they couldn't go to see them when they knew they were dying; they couldn't go to the funeral; they haven't been able to be with family since. That is hard.

I've been through this very recently. It's awful, but I still 100% agree with what they're doing.

Marty Bird

Peregrinus wrote: »

Yeah, but you get idiots everywhere. There are people in Ireland who think that they don't need the vaccine because they are young and healthy and would likely deal easily with a dose of Covid.

Plenty of data to support that stance, this ain’t the Black Death.

Peregrinus

Marty Bird wrote: »

Plenty of data to support that stance, this ain’t the Black Death.

But it's still idiotic, because that misses the blindingly obvious point; Covid-19 is highly infectious. The purpose of the vaccine is not only to protect you from getting infected, but also to protect others from getting infected by you. And those others will not all be as young and healthy as you are.

Marty Bird

Peregrinus wrote: »

But it's still idiotic, because that misses the blindingly obvious point; Covid-19 is highly infectious. The purpose of the vaccine is not only to protect you from getting infected, but also to protect others from getting infected by you. And those others will not all be as young and healthy as you are.

Current vaccines don’t offer full protection against transmission, once the people in the high risk groups are done no need to worry about me or anyone else.

Peregrinus

Marty Bird wrote: »

Current vaccines don’t offer full protection against transmission, once the people in the high risk groups are done no need to worry about me or anyone else.

As long as the vaccine offers any degree of protection against transmission, a person's decision not to vaccinate exposes others to some risk. They are either a bit dim if they don't grasp this, or a bit selfish if they do grasp it but don't care.

Seriously, this is herd immunity 101. It's not that difficult.

(Not everybody in the high risk groups can be vaccinated. I have a friend who is in a high risk group but, for un related medical reasons, will not be given the vaccine. It matters crucially to her whether others are vaccinated.)

mandrake04

Peregrinus wrote: »

I have friends who have had close relatives - includign parents - die abroad; they couldn't go to see them when they knew they were dying; they couldn't go to the funeral; they haven't been able to be with family since. That is hard.

These are valid points, but there are also sad cases of people in Ireland dying and their family unable to say goodbye except maybe by iPad or through a hospital window or the dilemma of having to chose which family members can attend a funeral while the rest watch a stream on their phone from the car.

That's just as hard and it seems often forgotten.

derfderf

mandrake04 wrote: »

These are valid points, but there are also sad cases of people in Ireland dying and their family unable to say goodbye except maybe by iPad or through a hospital window or the dilemma of having to chose which family members can attend a funeral while the rest watch a stream on their phone from the car.

That's just as hard and it seems often forgotten.

It is a good point, and, as I said, I've been through it recently. My right to visit someone is not more important than others right not to get sick.

mandrake04

derfderf wrote: »

It is a good point, and, as I said, I've been through it recently. My right to visit someone is not more important than others right not to get sick.

Fortunately both my parents in their early 70's have avoided the virus so far, my mother told me that if they got sick or something happened that I shouldn't return for a funeral that only 10 people can attend and that I should look after my own family as they need me more. To many it sounds harsh but its nothing new, my Granny who I was very close died 14 years ago and my mother didn't tell me until the morning of the funeral because she didn't want me stress getting home.

These challenges are nothing new even pre-covid I had friend whose father took sick suddenly and he died while she was waiting for the Dublin flight in Heathrow really devastating for her as another 2-3 hrs and she could have said goodbye. I know someone who missed a funeral by hours because flights got delayed.

Living in Australia has its challenges but you don't live you life based on one or two days of a life time once you accept that its grand.

mandrake04

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote: »

Some of the posts on this thread are hilarious. Insisting that Australia will actually be worse off than the rest of the world in the long run because it didn't allow itself to be hit hard by COVID is a nonsense.



See what's wrong with this sentence? 'Normalish' life has been going on in Australia and NZ for most of the last 12 months. The only real difference being restrictions on international travel, which matters bog all when you live so far from everywhere else at any rate! Of course tourism has been hit, but I don't think many people in either country would swap zero COVID for tourism dollars at this stage.

These posts are very entertaining, people in Ireland concerned about tourism in Australia when most of hospitality and tourism in Ireland has been closed for most of year if not more than a year and it seems Irish people are more concerned about holidaying abroad than putting a few €€ in Paddys pocket*.

In saying that plenty of good options in Australia

https://www.qantas.com/travelinsider/en/explore/australia/plan-holiday-australia-2021-best-dream-trip-ideas-book-now.html?alt_cam=au:qd:in:edm:travel-insider:ti:20210515:holiday-dreams:full:dreams

https://www.qantas.com/travelinsider/en/explore/australia/regional-australia.html


*I see now Leo saying travel unlikely before August, probably string you along to late August to dissuade school age families.

derfderf

mandrake04 wrote: »

Fortunately both my parents in their early 70's have avoided the virus so far, my mother told me that if they got sick or something happened that I shouldn't return for a funeral that only 10 people can attend and that I should look after my own family as they need me more. To many it sounds harsh but its nothing new, my Granny who I was very close died 14 years ago and my mother didn't tell me until the morning of the funeral because she didn't want me stress getting home.

These challenges are nothing new even pre-covid I had friend whose father took sick suddenly and he died while she was waiting for the Dublin flight in Heathrow really devastating for her as another 2-3 hrs and she could have said goodbye. I know someone who missed a funeral by hours because flights got delayed.

Living in Australia has its challenges but you don't live you life based on one or two days of a life time once you accept that its grand.

Before covid I would have went home, no question. It's always touch and go if you'd make it in time, but I'd try
I looked in to to this time. The options to return to Ireland were limited. Nothing flying west, everything was through the US. Several connecting flights, and changes of airport. 58 hours travel time. Overall cost was about $16k (including return flight through abu ahabi).

That wasn't why I didn't go though. So many people are stuck overseas due to canceled flights, who knows how long it would take to secure a flight. Then you have the 2 weeks quarantine. I have a 2 year old son, I can't spend two months away.

is_that_so

As some have commented on this thread vaccine hesitancy may be an issue.

Australia's main medical body has warned the country's residents are "sitting ducks" for Covid-19, as business leaders call for the international border to be reopened faster despite a sluggish national vaccination drive.

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/0520/1222745-covid-world/

wassie

Gael23 wrote: »

Was talking to someone I know living in Australia and they said they don’t think they need the vaccine because there’s no Covid in Australia

One person isn't exactly a representative sample size.

mandrake04

is_that_so wrote: »

As some have commented on this thread vaccine hesitancy may be an issue.



https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/0520/1222745-covid-world/

I wouldn't worry too much reports that USA is probably only going get 70% and it looks like Israel has slowed right down and might even struggle to to hit 70%... basically they were 56% mid march and only just hit 60%.

ceadaoin.

Another lockdown for Victoria over 26 cases, complete with panic buying. So 2020 lol

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-27/victoria-covid-cases-melbourne-outbreak-lockdown-restrictions/100169172


https://www.9news.com.au/national/coronavirus-victoria-lockdown-update-panic-buying-toilet-paper-stripped-from-melbourne-shelves/86af445d-4de5-4b06-bc7e-d43c5a6700d4