Australian Response

Mellor

Chivito550 wrote: »

Hugely urbanised country, yes.

Densely population cities, no.

https://architectureau.com/articles/australian-cities-among-the-largest-and-least-densely-settled-in-the-world/

There's a good 94 page report called Demographia World Urban Areas which ranks all cities with a population of over 500,000. Australian cities are languishing towards the bottom. Most recent list is 2020. Its a PDF so can't figure out how to share it, but you'll find it easily through Google.

That lists the area and density of the Urban area around Sydney, not of Sydney itself. The urban area would include surround cities and metro areas.
It's like Dublin City vrs County Dublin.

Saying Dublin is more densely populated that Sydney is simply wrong.

mandrake04

Chivito550 wrote: »

What I don't get is, if Australia is adopting zero Covid, then why the need for any restrictions at all when case numbers are zero? Why is Rod Laver Arena limited to 50% capacity for the coming days for example?

Because there is no such thing as Zero Covid, its just a term used by retards.

Australia does not use the term Zero Covid and never did. They use the term low community transmission, or working towards no community transmission. This term implies that at all times you should assume there is Covid out there and so take precautions, 50% capacity is better than 0% capacity.

The capacity varies from state to state, Victoria is obviously more cautious.

There have been RL matches in Brisbane last year with 100% capacity, NSW outdoor stadium capacity is limited to 100% of seated and 75% of indoor seated.

Peregrinus

Chivito550 wrote: »

What I don't get is, if Australia is adopting zero Covid, then why the need for any restrictions at all when case numbers are zero? Why is Rod Laver Arena limited to 50% capacity for the coming days for example?

How do you think you get to zero covid? It doesn't just happen.

Right now, Victoria doesn't have zero covid - there are 25 active cases, as of this morning. 8 of those are recent arrivals still in hotel quarantine; 17 are people who became infected outside of quarantine, in all or almost all cases directly or indirectly from someone in hotel quarantine. And there may of course be some more as-yet-undiagnosed cases in the community.

How do you stop that from turning into a signficant outbreak, as has happened before in Victoria? By maintaining a constant level of protective measures even when you don't know of any cases in the community, to try and ensure that if a case does occur the initial spread will be slow, which maximises the chance of detecting the outbreak before it becomes widespread. And by going in early and hard with tough infection control measures ("circuit breaker actions") when you do detect an outbreak.

Victoria has just stepped down from 5 days of circuit-breaker actions, taken in response to an outbreak in the Holiday Inn quarantine hotel that led to infections in the community. During the circuit-breaker period nobody could attend the Rod Laver Arena - it was closed to the public. Now they are on "Covid-safe summer" measures, under which venues are open, but subject to capacity and density restrictions (different restrictions for indoor and outdoor venues), and this is what is limiting attendance at the arena now.

It's not guaranteed to work - nothing is. But, most of the time, it seems to work better than most of the alternative strategies.

derfderf

NSW is now 32 days without a community transmission. When a few cases started popping up at Christmas I was expecting it to be the start of something bigger, but it was stamped out fairly quickly.
Really, the Ruby Princess was the only screw up by a state. Even the big outbreak in Victoria was caused by security "mingling" with quarantined passengers (allegedly). You can't legislate for that.

mandrake04

Chivito550 wrote: »

The Australian Open was to show off to the world how great their measures have been.

No it wasn't.

Victoria feared losing its prized grand slam tournament if it didn't host the Australian Open in 2021, says premier Daniel Andrews.

The state government has been criticised for holding the tournament amid a pandemic, with 1200 international players and officials given an exemption to fly into Melbourne from Thursday night to Saturday morning.

But Andrews said other countries would have pounced on the billion-dollar tournament with Melbourne risking losing hosting rights all together, which would be a massive financial blow to the economy.

He used Japan as an example, with their Olympic tennis complex in Tokyo ready and waiting after the delay of the 2020 Games.

The event is the richest and biggest on the Australian sporting calendar.

"If the Australian Open does not happen in Melbourne, it will happen somewhere else," Andrews said on Thursday.

"It will happen in Japan, it will happen in China, it will happen in Singapore.

"The real risk then is, it doesn't come back.

"Just focus on the future of this event - not just this year - but what not having this event this year may well mean.

"There are so many cities around the world that would do anything to have one of those grand slam events anchored in their city.

"Many ... might go ahead and build a brand-new facility from scratch to do it.

"You don't invite that."

Andrews said the event supported more than a quarter of a million Victorian jobs.

He added the government and taxpayers needed a return on the $1.5 billion invested in building the Melbourne Park facility over a 10-year period.

"This event is very important to our city and our state," Andrews said.

"On that basis, it is worth going to these extraordinary steps to make sure it can happen, but in a safe way."

Officially branded as the Grand Slam of Asia-Pacific, Melbourne has hosting rights until 2039 but remains vulnerable from being poached by China.

is_that_so

Seems there is a rising level of vaccine hesitancy in Australia, above 20% according to this.


https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/feb/19/more-than-20-of-australians-say-they-are-unlikely-to-get-covid-jab-study-finds

Noo

is_that_so wrote: »

Seems there is a rising level of vaccine hesitancy in Australia, above 20% according to this.


https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/feb/19/more-than-20-of-australians-say-they-are-unlikely-to-get-covid-jab-study-finds

Doesnt really surprise me. One of the negative side effects of Australias covid success is that some people think its all an over reaction "sure theres hardly any cases, the restrictions are an over reaction" (paraphrasing my old boss). These are the people who dont have a vested interest in anything outside of Australia, so they wouldnt be following what its like in countries where its running rampant. Gives them enough energy to focus on the whole anti vax thing.

Get rid of the border closures and quarantine, let covid do its thing, and I guarantee theyd be begging for it.

Not in Kansas

mandrake04 wrote: »

Because there is no such thing as Zero Covid, its just a term used by retards.

And what's the term used to decribe people who use that word? I can think of a few, but they would get me banned.

derfderf

is_that_so wrote: »

Seems there is a rising level of vaccine hesitancy in Australia, above 20% according to this.


https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/feb/19/more-than-20-of-australians-say-they-are-unlikely-to-get-covid-jab-study-finds

Vaccine uptake in general is quite high in Australia, but Noo's comment is correct. COVID almost doesn't seem real here.
If what's happened in Australia over the last year was an actual reflection of Covid, a vaccine would be pointless.

is_that_so

Anti-vaccination protests.


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-56137597

mandrake04

Looks like international travel possibly back on later this year, bar any further world wide Covid disasters.


https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/health-wellbeing/vaccine-hesitancy-grows-as-rollout-nears-c-2193333

Gael23

A zero approach means they have to manage reopening very carefully. No immunity has been built through natural infection in the community.
Also zero Covid means that you will never be able to travel freely. Now we have vaccines they need to decide if they are going to accept a few mild cases

Mellor

Gael23 wrote: »

A zero approach means they have to manage reopening very carefully. No immunity has been built through natural infection in the community.

Virtually no immunity has been built up anywhere

Peregrinus

Well, yeah. The strategy most countries are seeking to follow is to build up immunity through widespread vaccination. How effective this will be depends on two things:

1. How effective vaccinations are. What degree of resistance do they confer? Do they provide protection from disease, or also from infectivity? And how reliably do they do that? And how long does that protection last?

2. What proportion of the population has been vaccinated?

If the vaccines are effective against infectivity, and if you get a large proportion of the population vaccinated, then even the unvaccinated get a degree of protection because, even though still liable to infection, they are less likely to encounter someone who is infectious and, therefore, less likely actually to become infected. That's "herd immunity".

On the effectiveness question, we'll just have to wait and see. As I understand it, indications thus far are generally good, but there's lots of effectiveness questions we don't really know the answer to because data has yet to come in. Plus, new variants of the virus turn up from time to time; we obviously can't answer effectiveness questions about future variants yet.

On the proportion of the population vaccinated question, Australia may have a challenge. No country will get 100% of the population vaccinated - there will be people for whom, for medical reasons, vaccination is not indicated. There will be classes of people for who various vaccines have not been tested and, therefore, not approved. And there will be people who choose not to be vaccinated.

The last could be an issue in Australia. Early indications are that, the more severely a population has been afflicted by Covid, the higher the willingness to take the vaccine. No surprise there, really. But of course in Australia we've had very little Covid infection, and very few people have had either personal or second-hand experience of the disease. So we may find that a reluctance to take the vaccine is higher in Australia than in many other countries.

So, yeah. The vaccine is not a magic bullet; there are a few hurdles between approval of a vaccine and the achievement of a high degree of herd immunity. And it's the latter, not the former, that really controls when and how you dismantle your covid-related restrictions.

mandrake04

Gael23 wrote: »

A zero approach means they have to manage reopening very carefully. No immunity has been built through natural infection in the community.
Also zero Covid means that you will never be able to travel freely. Now we have vaccines they need to decide if they are going to accept a few mild cases

I wouldn't be too concerned majority of Australia has reopened 8 months ago (Melbourne cluster fcuk being the exception)

Of course most of the restrictions is international travel.

80% say they will get vaccinated.

http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/8646-roy-morgan-survey-on-masks-borders-vaccines-in-australia-february-15-2021-202102141000

They just started 80k a week vaccinations and from next month they will be making 1 million AZ vaccines a week in CSL Melbourne, no AZ euro-crumbs here.

I think those who don't get vaccinated do so at their own risk and they will be severely disadvantaged when it comes to travel, jobs and socialising and entertainment.

Anyway travel not a problem once the vaccines are rolled out, just as in Ireland its hoped that the vaccine will allow business open it will also allow international travel from Australia. Travel might be resuming end of June.

The vaccine passports and certificates come into play around the world, so only those vaccinated will be travelling.

https://www.9news.com.au/national/international-travel-could-return-in-months-vaccine-passport-air-new-zealand/9d9ffa60-cee7-4fd8-b16c-1027f33ff025

ceadaoin.

mandrake04 wrote: »

)

Of course most of the restrictions is international travel.




Anyway travel not a problem once the vaccines are rolled out, just as in Ireland its hoped that the vaccine will allow business open it will also allow international travel from Australia. Travel might be resuming end of June.

Really?

Health Minister Greg Hunt has refused to guarantee Australia’s borders will open even if the whole country has been vaccinated against COVID-19.

Australia’s borders have been shut since March 2020 and will remain closed until at least the middle of June, leaving more than 36,000 Australians trapped overseas, unable to return due to caps on the number of quarantine spaces

The closure also bans citizens from leaving the country unless they have an exemption or are travelling to New Zealand.

Mr Hunt suggested at a news conference in Canberra on Tuesday the international border closures could last much longer and stay in place even if the entire population had been vaccinated against the coronavirus.

“Vaccination alone is no guarantee that you can open up,” Mr Hunt said.

“If the whole country were vaccinated, you couldn’t just open the borders.

“We still have to look at a series of different factors: transmission, longevity [of vaccine protection] and the global impact - and those are factors which the world is learning about,” he said.

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/international-borders-might-not-open-even-if-whole-country-is-vaccinated-greg-hunt-20210413-p57ixi.html

And still some people think the Australian/ NZ strategy is enviable? I've said it on this thread, they cant reopen borders and not get outbreaks, even with vaccines, seems they are realizing that now. Are they purposely trying to make themselves a pariah state, shut off from the world and even their own citizens?

Gael23

They need to decode of they can tolerate outbreaks that won’t lead to serious illness or death.

If they can’t and they’re case count has to stay at zero we’re looking at a new version of North Korea. A permanent travel ban would also I imagine e lead to mass emigration of foigenre based permanently in Australia

Peregrinus

But nothing Greg Hunt has said suggests a permanent travel ban. At worst, what he's saying is that the lifting of travel restrictions doesn't just require the successful rollout of vaccination in Australia; it also requires the successful rollout of vaccination in other countries.

And since Australia is, um, not the fastest country in the world in its vaccine rollout, by the time Australia has vaccinated a critical mass of its population, much of the world will have done the same.

Mellor

ceadaoin. wrote:

And still some people think the Australian/ NZ strategy is enviable?

Prehaps not compared to like pre-2020 life. But compared to the currently Irish situation, it's not even close;

Australia: International borders closed (exemption required)
National travel, Hotels, bars, restaurants, sports, events, entertainment, retail fully open. Gatherings permitted. Indoor and outdoor events permitted.

Ireland: International borders open (but shouldn't be)
Pubs, restaurants, sports, events, entertainment, retail closed.
No gatherings. Can't have friends over to your house.
Travel restricted close to your home.



I think the preferred choice is obvious. Anyone saying that would rather the current Irish

is_that_so

Mellor wrote: »

Prehaps not compared to like pre-2020 life. But compared to the currently Irish situation, it's not even close;

Australia: International borders closed (exemption required)
National travel, Hotels, bars, restaurants, sports, events, entertainment, retail fully open. Gatherings permitted. Indoor and outdoor events permitted.

Ireland: International borders open (but shouldn't be)
Pubs, restaurants, sports, events, entertainment, retail closed.
No gatherings. Can't have friends over to your house.
Travel restricted close to your home.



I think the preferred choice is obvious. Anyone saying that would rather the current Irish

Let's not ignore isolation, the very low levels of cases, our own EU membership and what that entails, the EU traffic light system of risk and a general lack of inclination to keep our own people out of the country. We will be moving about more, both internally and internationally within the next 3-4 months. Australia by the looks of things will be 2022.

Mellor

is_that_so wrote: »

We will be moving about more, both internally and internationally within the next 3-4 months. Australia by the looks of things will be 2022.

Australians have been moving about internally for months.
I was flew interstate for work last month. A college just flew 5 hours to Perth. Another 3 hours north.


Low levels of cases is a product of measures implemented. They weren’t weren’t lower in Australia initially.

ahnowbrowncow

Mellor wrote: »

Australians have been moving about internally for months.
I was flew interstate for work last month. A college just flew 5 hours to Perth. Another 3 hours north.


Low levels of cases is a product of measures implemented. They weren’t weren’t lower in Australia initially.

Must have been a big plane.

is_that_so

Mellor wrote: »

Australians have been moving about internally for months.
I was flew interstate for work last month. A college just flew 5 hours to Perth. Another 3 hours north.


Low levels of cases is a product of measures implemented. They weren’t weren’t lower in Australia initially.

Internal travel was not a reference to Australia, it was to Ireland - we'll be able to do both fairly soon. Our approach to quote our CMO from last March - "we think it is the right one". It's what all countries chose to do for themselves.

mandrake04

is_that_so wrote: »

Let's not ignore isolation, the very low levels of cases, our own EU membership and what that entails, the EU traffic light system of risk and a general lack of inclination to keep our own people out of the country. We will be moving about more, both internally and internationally within the next 3-4 months. Australia by the looks of things will be 2022.

Well that's assuming everything goes to plan, as we have seen several times last year and even as above with AZ and J&J.... things can change for the worse very quickly.

Although it might be the end of the year or into 2022 before there is a return to unrestricted international travel in Australia a cautious approach is not a bad thing, if a vaccine resistant variant or even a badly timed flu pandemic could put the whole thing go tits up in Europe and after the last year nothing would surprise me. Like what's the big rush?

To be honest I'm very disappointed by this pandemic, no flesh eating Zombies and it doesn't feel that eventful.

Mellor

is_that_so wrote: »

Internal travel was not a reference to Australia, it was to Ireland - we'll be able to do both fairly soon.

You said Ireland would be doing it within a a few months. And follow up with “Australia by 2023”. Claiming that wasn’t a referent to Australian travel is odd.

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

Must have been a big plane.

Sorry, not following. Internal flights have been fully running for some time.

is_that_so

Mellor wrote: »

You said Ireland would be doing it within a a few months. And follow up with “Australia by 2023”. Claiming that wasn’t a referent to Australian travel is odd.


Sorry, not following. Internal flights have been fully running for some time.

Australia by 2022, internationally. We'll be doing it sooner along with our with bugbear of internal travel.

Mellor

Mellor wrote: »

Sorry, not following. Internal flights have been fully running for some time.

You made a typo saying a COLLEGE of yours flew rather than colleague. It was a jest post wondering how big the plane would have to be to fly an entire college.

I found it funny

trixi001

I was chatting to a relative in OZ, and he is very keen to get the vaccine as according to him, COVID is fatal in 1 in 8 cases over 70 - if this is the type of (false) statistics promoted in Oz, shouldn't be much of a problem with the vaccine uptake..

mandrake04

trixi001 wrote: »

I was chatting to a relative in OZ, and he is very keen to get the vaccine as according to him, COVID is fatal in 1 in 8 cases over 70 - if this is the type of (false) statistics promoted in Oz, shouldn't be much of a problem with the vaccine uptake..

Mellor

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

You made a typo saying a COLLEGE of yours flew rather than colleague. It was a jest post wondering how big the plane would have to be to fly an entire college.

I found it funny

Ah didn’t even notice the typo.