COVID-19: Vaccine/antidote and testing procedures Megathread [Mod Warning - Post #1]

drunkmonkey

Luke & Pat on the radio, I didn't realize they don't know if this vaccine actually stops the spread they just know it reduces severe symptoms.

Russman

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Isn't Johnston and Johnston efficacy data due soon?

Would simplify the roll out as they were looking at a single inject schedule.

Think its due early in the new year but might possibly be in late Dec as transmission is so high in some parts of the world.

MerlinSouthDub

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Isn't Johnston and Johnston efficacy data due soon?

Would simplify the roll out as they were looking at a single inject schedule.

Possibly, if the single injection is effective. They have recently started a separate trial on a two dose regimen.

With infection rates out of control in the US (again), it would be surprising if we don't get a read out in the next couple of weeks.

Irish Stones

El Sueño wrote: »

I think those who take the vaccine will be at some sort of advantage in terms of travel, entry to events and possibly employment. I don't know what this will entail but I believe this will be the case.

People that think otherwise are in denial in my opinion.

So there will be kind of a discrimination between those who get the vaccine and those who don't. Between those who would like to get the vaccine soon, but are being put at the bottom of the distribution list, and those who are first in the rank.

Over here, in Italy, they said that those who had the Covid will be the last to be vaccinated because these people already have a natural immunity. So, this way, they are discriminating these latter from the rest of the (European) population by at least one year in terms of ability to access to events, travels, gatherings.

Irish Stones

ACitizenErased wrote: »

I'm planning on travelling big time too after the vaccine. This year will make everyone appreciate the world a little more.

I think that governments should give us all an extra month or two off just to compensate for the loss of entartainment of this year. It would of great advantage for all the community, because more people movig for longer time, more money will be spent on the tourism industry and all that is linked to.
I doubt, though, that governments and politicians are so forward-looking.

Irish Stones

timsey tiger wrote: »

appreciate it enough to do anything about climate change?

I have always been a strong supporter for the cause of the environment and climate change, but the shock that this pandemic gave me, made me lose all my beliefs, and now, like Mickey 32 said, I don't care about it the least.
As a matter of fact, I stopped caring for lots of things.

drunkmonkey

Vaccination against tuberculosis can reduce the spread of COVID-19 and ease its course
Analysis showed that the spread of the new coronavirus infection occurs more slowly where there is a large percentage of people vaccinated against tuberculosis with the BCG vaccine. (Peer reviewed)

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2020-12/spsu-vat120320.php

We have a high number of people who've had the BCG vaccine, I'm assuming as the average age of death with Covid here is late 80's a lot of that generation haven't had it. Also our under 5's haven't had it.
We're accrediting all Covid success to restrictions while attributing nothing to the existing vaccine.

There's been too many studies and peer reviewed papers to continue to ignore the help the BCG vaccine has given us.

At this stage with all the evidence I find it deceitful by NPHET to take all the credit based on their restrictions.

sydthebeat

drunkmonkey wrote: »

At this stage with all the evidence I find it deceitful by NPHET to take all the credit based on their restrictions.

sorry, but where was this happening?

ceegee

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Luke & Pat on the radio, I didn't realize they don't know if this vaccine actually stops the spread they just know it reduces severe symptoms.

I'm not sure how they would check if it stops spread within the trial. The general consensus seems to be that it most likely will.

Gael23

What’s the latest in the AstraZeneca issues?

Russman

ceegee wrote: »

I'm not sure how they would check if it stops spread within the trial. The general consensus seems to be that it most likely will.

Astrazeneca/Oxford were swabbing people weekly to try track asymptomatic transmission. Adrian Hill said there's "tantalising" signals that it may stop transmission, whatever that actually means.

drunkmonkey

sydthebeat wrote: »

sorry, but where was this happening?

I haven't seen NPHET or anyone else in the spotlight in this country attribute anything besides restrictions to our success with Covid.
Plenty of places have already given it to health care workers and the UK are in the process of conducting clinical trials on it.

yosemitesam1

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Luke & Pat on the radio, I didn't realize they don't know if this vaccine actually stops the spread they just know it reduces severe symptoms.

If you're a salesman, do you focus on the strengths or potential limitations of your product?

drunkmonkey

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

If you're a salesman, do you focus on the strengths or potential limitations of your product?

I assumed it would stop the spread. It may still do, Disappointing if it doesn't as it won't be going away any time soon. It would be a disaster to have it continuing to spread which could justify continued lockdowns.
I'm optimistic it will reduce the spread significantly if people stop becoming symptomatic. We'll know by the end of January.

Hmmzis

Some data from phase 1 of GSK/Clover:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.12.03.20243709v1.full.pdf+html

The neutralizing titers look very good, not quite to the level of Novavax, but not far off either. The good thing here is that the most likely dose (9ug + ASO3) appears to be working excellently in elderly individuals. From a safety point of view it appears to be in line with the other protein based candidates (not any rougher than a flu shot).

Micky 32

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I assumed it would stop the spread. It may still do, Disappointing if it doesn't as it won't be going away any time soon. It would be a disaster to have it continuing to spread which could justify continued lockdowns.
I'm optimistic it will reduce the spread significantly if people stop becoming symptomatic. We'll know by the end of January.

This is the beginning of the end for the virus once the population get vaccinated. It will gradually disappear into the sunset hopefully along with a cohort of doomongering posters.

VinLieger

Micky 32 wrote: »

This is the beginning of the end for the virus once the population get vaccinated. It will gradually disappear into the sunset hopefully along with a cohort of doomongering posters.

I dont see how it will disappear as you claim, thanks to antivaxxers and many countries having poor infrastructures for such a massive roll out. I believe this is endemic, if we are to travel outside Europe in the next decade and probably longer we will need to preemptively vaccinate against it like you would for tropical diseases.

brisan

Sky King wrote: »

You didn't understand my post. Let me explain again by way of hypothetical scenario:

Theres (say) 50,000 a week coming into the country. The govt rollout infrastructure is maxed out at 25,000 a week being administered through their various inefficiencies. This leaves the balance just sitting there in fridges.

Should we:

A: Leave it sitting there to appease people such as yourself who are apparently afraid of a Randian dystopia.
B: Sell it, knowing that it will get into the population faster
?

Increase the government rollout to 50k
It’s not rocket science
How much training does a paramedic or an army medic need to give a vaccine
The vaccine should never be available for purchase till everybody in the country who wants it has got it through the HSE

Micky 32

VinLieger wrote: »

I dont see how it will disappear as you claim,.

It won’t disappear but the vaccine will be enough to return to some normality. For example i will be travelling again etc with confidence once the vaccines get rolled out.

is_that_so

VinLieger wrote: »

I dont see how it will disappear as you claim, thanks to antivaxxers and many countries having poor infrastructures for such a massive roll out. I believe this is endemic, if we are to travel outside Europe in the next decade and probably longer we will need to preemptively vaccinate against it like you would for tropical diseases.

I think you are equating anti-vaxxers with opposition to measles shots. We don't need the 90%+ that measles requires, 70%, maybe even as low as 60% will do it. While COVID has run riot this year we will have treatments and by the looks of things, oodles of vaccines, some of which may give very long term immunity.

drunkmonkey

The WHO is looking at infecting healthy people with Covid to speed up vaccine trials.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/07/who-looks-at-giving-covid-to-healthy-people-to-speed-up-vaccine-trials

Isn't that flying in the face of the Nuremberg Code.

is_that_so

brisan wrote: »

Increase the government rollout to 50k
It’s not rocket science
How much training does a paramedic or an army medic need to give a vaccine
The vaccine should never be available for purpose till everybody in the country who wants it has got it through the HSE

Not rocket science but a very challenging logistical exercise and there haven't been enough doses manufactured so far.

is_that_so

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The WHO is looking at infecting healthy people with Covid to speed up vaccine trials.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/07/who-looks-at-giving-covid-to-healthy-people-to-speed-up-vaccine-trials

Isn't that flying in the face of the Nuremberg Code.

They would be volunteers. This has been talked about during the summer, if not by WHO. There is a case to be made for it with so many vaccines and treatments currently being researched.

brisan

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Agree but not much use if the women who get it find they can't form a placenta and we're left breeding with the antivaxers.

You can hardly compare it to getting the virus we've tested on probably 600 million versus the 30,000 odd with the vaccine.

If we are left with only the antivaccers to breed from the human race will soon die out
Survival of the fittest and all that

lbj666

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The WHO is looking at infecting healthy people with Covid to speed up vaccine trials.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/07/who-looks-at-giving-covid-to-healthy-people-to-speed-up-vaccine-trials

Isn't that flying in the face of the Nuremberg Code.

A good quick google there,

The first principle stated that ‘The voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential'

they've already starting voluntary trials in the UK

drunkmonkey

is_that_so wrote: »

They would be volunteers. This has been talked about during the summer, if not by WHO. There is a case to be made for it with so many vaccines and treatments currently being researched.

As far as I know you can't deliberately infect someone with something that could potentially kill them.
I can see the pros to it but at the same time we need to respect history and not repeat it's mistakes.

hmmm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

As far as I know you can't deliberately infect someone with something that could potentially kill them.
I can see the pros to it but at the same time we need to respect history and not repeat it's mistakes.

There's a whole field of ethical science which considers this very question, and have thought about this a lot more deeply than either you or I have. Lots of informed consent, therapeutics, and some work to produce milder versions of viruses.

Even then you see scientists disagree quite strongly about whether it is the right thing to do or not, and that sort of debate is a good thing.

brisan

Gael23 wrote: »

The political pressure to get this right is huge so the HSE will have the powers that be all over them to ensure they can’t screw up

If there is an obscure and never seen it thought of way to screw up the mass rollout of this vaccine the HSE will find it
That’s why I am glad they have got the army involved
A clear chain of command and a no nonsense approach to logistics

It will not matter if John from the Dept in the HSE who looks after that paperwork is on 3 days annual leave and holding the whole process up

drunkmonkey

lbj666 wrote: »

A good quick google there,

The first principle stated that ‘The voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential'

they've already starting voluntary trials in the UK

Read the other 9 principles. Deliberately infecting people is 100% against it if there is a possibility to cause them harm.

brisan

is_that_so wrote: »

Not rocket science but a very challenging logistical exercise and there haven't been enough doses manufactured so far.

It’s only a problem if you let it become a problem
Put the time , money , assets and people into it and it’s possible
They could test 115k people a week ( and that was limited by lab capacity ) so at least the same for vaccinations should be easily obtainable
We will have 4 -7 vaccines available by early next year
Big difference between can’t and won’t

Russman

brisan wrote: »

It’s only a problem if you let it become a problem
Put the time , money , assets and people into it and it’s possible
They could test 115k people a week ( and that was limited by lab capacity ) so at least the same for vaccinations should be easily obtainable
We will have 4 -7 vaccines available by early next year
Big difference between can’t and won’t

I totally agree that every possible asset the country has should be thrown at this. Its genuinely the biggest, most important undertaking ever for us. Whether that involves the army, naval personnel, chains of pharmacies, private bus companies or even taxis just to ferry the vulnerable to hubs etc.
Accepting that there are obviously some limiting factors, especially supply of doses of the vaccine(s).
In the greater scheme of things, another half billion or whatever the cost would be, is chicken feed compared to the ongoing cost since February.

Gael23

Russman wrote: »

I totally agree that every possible asset the country has should be thrown at this. Its genuinely the biggest, most important undertaking ever for us. Whether that involves the army, naval personnel, chains of pharmacies, private bus companies or even taxis just to ferry the vulnerable to hubs etc.
Accepting that there are obviously some limiting factors, especially supply of doses of the vaccine(s).
In the greater scheme of things, another half billion or whatever the cost would be, is chicken feed compared to the ongoing cost since February.

Maybe even to the point of approaching nurses to come out of retirement to administer vaccines?

arctictree

Sorry, dont have time to read the whole thread! How come the UK are rolling out vaccinations from today and we are not?

is_that_so

brisan wrote: »

It’s only a problem if you let it become a problem
Put the time , money , assets and people into it and it’s possible
They could test 115k people a week ( and that was limited by lab capacity ) so at least the same for vaccinations should be easily obtainable
We will have 4 -7 vaccines available by early next year
Big difference between can’t and won’t

We can only obtain our allowed quota through the EU. HSE and DeGascun say testing for the sake of it is a waste of resources. BTW which 4-7 vaccines are you talking about and please define early next year? So far we have 2 coming our way.

arctictree

arctictree wrote: »

Sorry, dont have time to read the whole thread! How come the UK are rolling out vaccinations from today and we are not?

Have you been living under a rock??

is_that_so

arctictree wrote: »

Sorry, dont have time to read the whole thread! How come the UK are rolling out vaccinations from today and we are not?

It's already been approved for use there. We are waiting for the EMA but the plan in the EU is to start it in early January.

Russman

Gael23 wrote: »

Maybe even to the point of approaching nurses to come out of retirement to administer vaccines?

Sure, if its an option. Whatever it takes would be my attitude on this.
It needs a strong person who's not afraid to step on toes or challenge norms to get this done.

stephenjmcd

Gael23 wrote: »

Maybe even to the point of approaching nurses to come out of retirement to administer vaccines?

Unlikely to be required.

Defence forces medics are to be used and more members of the defence forces being trained. Much like when they began with the testing infrastructure.

NAS also confirmed paramedics are qualified to administer.

brisan

is_that_so wrote: »

We can only obtain our allowed quota through the EU. HSE and DeGascun say testing for the sake of it is a waste of resources. BTW which 4-7 vaccines are you talking about and please define early next year? So far we have 2 coming our way.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/science/coronavirus-vaccine-tracker.amp.html

https://www.raps.org/news-and-articles/news-articles/2020/3/covid-19-vaccine-tracker

Our allowed quota will cover more than 100% of the population as it will for all EU countries

is_that_so

brisan wrote: »

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/science/coronavirus-vaccine-tracker.amp.html

https://www.raps.org/news-and-articles/news-articles/2020/3/covid-19-vaccine-tracker

Our allowed quota will cover more than 100% of the population as it will for all EU countries

Ultimately yes but not in January and maybe not until mid year.

brisan

is_that_so wrote: »

We can only obtain our allowed quota through the EU. HSE and DeGascun say testing for the sake of it is a waste of resources. BTW which 4-7 vaccines are you talking about and please define early next year? So far we have 2 coming our way.

is_that_so wrote: »

Ultimately yes but not in January and maybe not until mid year.

How do you know that ?
Oxford is well advanced as are others

arctictree

Deleted User wrote: »

Have you been living under a rock??

Ha, yes, I've stopped watching the news. Bloody depressing!

is_that_so

brisan wrote: »

How do you know that ?
Oxford is well advanced as are others

It's a guess based on what the likes of Pfizer have said - 1.3bn doses next year, Moderna at 500m-1bn but it will take time. Donnelly also claimed we'll have 1m vaccinated by March. Oxford just makes 3 then and they are still a while away as they need to sort out that dose anomaly. Others may be coming much later.

Necro

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The WHO is looking at infecting healthy people with Covid to speed up vaccine trials.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/07/who-looks-at-giving-covid-to-healthy-people-to-speed-up-vaccine-trials

Isn't that flying in the face of the Nuremberg Code.

Mod:

Enough of this conspiracy nonsense take it to the appropriate forum. Do not post in this thread again

drunkmonkey

Necro wrote: »

Mod:

Enough of this conspiracy nonsense take it to the appropriate forum. Do not post in this thread again

How is that conspiracy nonsense, it's a real event that's happening to discuss it and this is the vaccine testing discussion thread.

It's all part of the discussion nobody only you are saying it's nonsense or a conspiracy. It in no way warrants a ban from the thread.

Mod: Banned

braychelsea

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/taoiseach-micheal-martin-says-ireland-23127840

Martin saying Ireland ready to vaccinate before Christmas if EMA approval is brought forward

arctictree

arctictree wrote: »

Sorry, dont have time to read the whole thread! How come the UK are rolling out vaccinations from today and we are not?

MHRA (UK) used an emergency use procedure to get approval through, it means they have to "sign off" on each batch to be used until a wider approval is granted.

EMA (EU) are going for a conditional marketing authorisation. Which requires more time than the above.

Any EU country could have done what the UK did using their own regulator but only a few EU countries would have their own regulator as well resourced as the MHRA.

seamus

There's no need to rush the approval, the EMA needs to ignore the pressure and do what they have to do. An extra 3 weeks won't kill us.

Deleted User wrote: »

MHRA (UK) used an emergency use procedure to get approval through, it means they have to "sign off" on each batch to be used until a wider approval is granted.

EMA (EU) are going for a conditional marketing authorisation. Which requires more time than the above.

Any EU country could have done what the UK did using their own regulator but only a few EU countries would have their own regulator as well resourced as the MHRA.

It's also worth noting that the MHRA didn't "move faster" or do a better job than the EMA. They have taken a subset of the trial data to make a risk assessment about whether the emergency authorisation was justified.
The EMA is considering the entire data set to make a more complete, and ultimately better evidence risk assessment in advance of approval.

The EMA was pretty scathing about the EHRA's jump forward because it has the potential to undermine confidence in the vaccine. They are literally the only body who has "rushed through" the approval of the vaccine without proper checks.

brisan

seamus wrote: »

There's no need to rush the approval, the EMA needs to ignore the pressure and do what they have to do. An extra 3 weeks won't kill us.

30,000 people dying weekly might disagree

seamus

brisan wrote: »

30,000 people dying weekly might disagree

Rolling out the vaccine won't save any lives for 6-8 weeks and without a proper consideration of the data you cannot say that it will save any lives in the long run.

This is not emergency surgery where you rip the patient open to save their life and deal with the long-term consequences later. The process needs to be followed to ensure you're not causing more damage than you're trying to prevent.