COVID-19: Vaccine/antidote and testing procedures Megathread [Mod Warning - Post #1]

ixoy

ixoy wrote: »

Will the HSE jab one person on the 29th and then claim they've met the target after which they can take their time..

I would be concerned as to the level of red tape that the IT system might introduce and hope they're not going to await its completion before pushing ahead.

Didn't they already say they wont wait for the IT system if it is not ready

funnydoggy

I could create a Python script to create a file and write/append patient details to it, and email it to Paul Reid if he wants...

Cut out the need for a team of devs. This first year software dev student can do it :pac: :pac:

I could even add a needle emoji in the header for the craic.

/joking in case anyone thinks I'm serious.. never know, this is the internet after all..

ixoy

Deleted User wrote: »

Didn't they already say they wont wait for the IT system if it is not ready

Did they? I did a high level skim of it and don't recall. Certainly, I imagine they'll want it for the bigger phases in place.
The contract itself is out with IBM and Salesforce and I imagine it'll need some major fleshing out, especially with the usual trickery around GDPR and all the edge cases these things seem to find.

stephenjmcd

Deliveries to start on 26th December from manufacturing sites in Germany and Belgium.

After that its just about how long it takes to transport into country and then distribute

ShineOn7

In pictures: How the Pfizer-BioNTech Covid-19 vaccine works

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/coronavirus/in-pictures-how-the-pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine-works-1.4436433

PS: did the Irish Times lift this entire article from the New York Times without linking to the original?

They mention them at the end of it, but I thought legally they had to give the URL to the original article

polesheep

Stheno wrote: »

If you read the article you would have seen that it's not uncommon for there to be extra doses in multidose vials?

40% overfill is not common. It's by no means a big deal and I wasn't trying to imply that it is, however, it indicates things being done in a rush. That's possibly acceptable to most people given the circumstances, but the constant denial that there has been a rush is silly. As I said, I'm happy enough to be down the list.

ShineOn7

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Deliveries to start on 26th December from manufacturing sites in Germany and Belgium.

After that its just about how long it takes to transport into country and then distribute

Ireland?

And how many?

Sorry, thread is moving fast today. A good sign

polesheep

seamus wrote: »

Overfilled vials is standard practice. When the dose is being extracted from the vial, the volume is eyeballed by the doctor/nurse on the side of the syringe. It's very accurate, but it's still eyeballed. So a 5ml dose might actually be 5.034ml extracted by the nurse. This is OK, the margin for error has been accounted for in the trials.

If the vial contains exactly 25ml, then the person getting the last dose has a risk of being undermedicated.

So they just make sure vials are filled with at least 25ml. It's then stated to contain five doses, and the practitioner knows to throw it away when five doses are done, regardless of how much is left in the bottle.

In this case the FDA is saying that the practitioner is allowed to attempt to extract extra doses from the bottle. If they get a full 5ml dose, great. If not, they dump the vial (and syringe) and start again.

40% extra doses is very optimistic. Probably be closer to 10-20% in practice.

Not by 40%.

polesheep

D.Q wrote: »

Well there's your first incorrect assumption for that sort of person.

It's headlines, hysteria and histrionics, that's their whole M.O

This says a lot more about you than it does me.

stephenjmcd

ShineOn7 wrote: »

Ireland?



And how many?



Sorry, thread is moving fast today. A good sign

Everywhere. Once approved by EMA, EU commission are saying deliveries to leave factories on 26th.

How many all depends on allocation. Small numbers id say

seamus

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Deliveries to start on 26th December from manufacturing sites in Germany and Belgium.

After that its just about how long it takes to transport into country and then distribute

They'll be flown straight to Dublin I'd say. Later batches might come through France, but I imagine the first few will be flown across. 2,200 doses wouldn't even need very big containers, they could be carried in the cabin of a Learjet.

funnydoggy

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Everywhere. Once approved by EMA, EU commission are saying deliveries to leave factories on 26th.

How many all depends on allocation. Small numbers id say

A lovely Christmas gift

ixoy

ixoy wrote: »

Did they? I did a high level skim of it and don't recall. Certainly, I imagine they'll want it for the bigger phases in place.
The contract itself is out with IBM and Salesforce and I imagine it'll need some major fleshing out, especially with the usual trickery around GDPR and all the edge cases these things seem to find.

Question was asked in the press conference, repeatedly. Reid said they will use some variant on the system they have for testing until the solution is available if needed.

opinionated3

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Everywhere. Once approved by EMA, EU commission are saying deliveries to leave factories on 26th.

How many all depends on allocation. Small numbers id say

When you say "small numbers" I'm assuming this is because manufacturing cannot keep up with demand?

ShineOn7

I know there were calls to use the Army to help with all sorts in this since March. It was almost a cliché

But if this side of the pandemic doesn't scream "get the Army to help" I don't know what does

stephenjmcd

opinionated3 wrote: »

When you say "small numbers" I'm assuming this is because manufacturing cannot keep up with demand?

Not really, it would have been pre agreed with the EU from Pfizer & BioNTech how many doses they could produce this year, then from that heres the EU initial allocation, spread that out among your 27 members and we'll have more in the coming weeks and months.

Production has been on going for months but it just takes time to build up stockpiles

polesheep

polesheep wrote: »

40% overfill is not common. It's by no means a big deal and I wasn't trying to imply that it is, however, it indicates things being done in a rush. That's possibly acceptable to most people given the circumstances, but the constant denial that there has been a rush is silly. As I said, I'm happy enough to be down the list.

Do you believe they have completely redesigned their solution dispensing process for this vaccine?
No medical product will be released by a reputable manufacturer "in a rush". As has been explained, if a vial is to have 5 doses it will have overage built in. Controls on dispensing will all be primarily preventing under filling.

ACitizenErased

This is very exciting lads, long time coming. Roll on the jabs

Marhay70

polesheep wrote: »

Not by 40%.

In a normal manufacturing set up I would agree, certainly from a profit point of view.
I'm remembering that early on in this whole saga, one of the key problems envisaged was supply of containers, I'm just wondering if this could be the reason for overfill. In my experience, granted a few years ago now, production lines usually have to be shut down to adjust fill levels so if the correct container is not available and given the pressure of demand and that the financial angle is not critical in this case, it just may be more expedient to fill the larger dose.
I'm sure there'll be an explanation forthcoming.

polesheep

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you believe they have completely redesigned their solution dispensing process for this vaccine?
No medical product will be released by a reputable manufacturer "in a rush". As has been explained, if a vial is to have 5 doses it will have overage built in. Controls on dispensing will all be primarily preventing under filling.

From the article: "Erin Fox, a pharmacy expert at University of Utah said: “It’s pretty unusual to have a full extra dose or more though – but it does seem to be there.”

I'm as pleased as anyone that vaccines for Covid have been developed. Vaccines in general are a no-brainer. Without them many of us would not be here to post on this forum and of those that survived to be here, many would be crippled or horribly disfigured. I just don't get what is almost a religious zeal around the infallibility of the developers and producers of the fastest developed vaccines in history.

seamus

opinionated3 wrote: »

When you say "small numbers" I'm assuming this is because manufacturing cannot keep up with demand?

I think a limited amount of "ready to go" product was manufactured, because at the end of the day if you don't get approval, it all goes in the bin. Full-scale manufacturing will have already kicked off, but I expect won't be delivering any new batches for a few weeks.

Micky 32

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you believe they have completely redesigned their solution dispensing process for this vaccine?
No medical product will be released by a reputable manufacturer "in a rush". As has been explained, if a vial is to have 5 doses it will have overage built in. Controls on dispensing will all be primarily preventing under filling.

I think it’s just people looking for as many excuses as they can to not take the vaccine.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/1363799/coronavirus-update-news-latest-nasal-spray-taffix/amp

What do people make of this?

Nasal sprays until vaccination rollout?

Claim of 5hr protection?

I think there is merit in nasal sprays. Not sure it will be this one but others are in development.

seamus

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/1363799/coronavirus-update-news-latest-nasal-spray-taffix/amp

What do people make of this?

Nasal sprays until vaccination rollout?

Claim of 5hr protection?

I think there is merit in nasal sprays. Not sure it will be this one but others are in development.

This is a pre-existing product that they decided to test against Covid rather than a new innovation.

Tbh, I don't see it having a wide impact. It protects the nasal cavity only, so doesn't negate the requirement to wear a mask or social distance. The talk of "protection" would also risk leading people to believe that you take a spray of it before you step outside the door and then it's back to normal.

The source isn't exactly stellar either.

Water John

975 doses in each 'pizza' box and 5 boxes in a pack. That's 4,875 doses. Dose that number of people and use a new supply for the second dose.

munchkin_utd

Water John wrote: »

975 doses in each 'pizza' box and 5 boxes in a pack. That's 4,875 doses. Dose that number of people and use a new supply for the second dose.

Ireland will get more fairly quickly, but if NPHET hasnt even a plan in place to issue the vaccine then why should Ireland get substantial supplies
Theres 5 mass vaccination centres being worked on, and 3 of them are in colleges and the sum total of progress 2 days ago was that NPHET people had a chat with lads in the colleged

On the same day Bavaria, same size as Ireland and just over double the population, announced that all 100 mass vaccination centres there were finished and ready to go .
Now... who looks like they might actually do with getting substantial supplies of the vaccine before the new year, Germany/ Bavaria or NPHET-land ????

BTW, if I didn't hear it wrong, germany is getting 900,000 doses of the initial batch but as I said, whats the point in giving Ireland a decent amount if they arent ready for it.

seamus

seamus wrote: »

This is a pre-existing product that they decided to test against Covid rather than a new innovation.

Tbh, I don't see it having a wide impact. It protects the nasal cavity only, so doesn't negate the requirement to wear a mask or social distance. The talk of "protection" would also risk leading people to believe that you take a spray of it before you step outside the door and then it's back to normal.

The source isn't exactly stellar either.

Thats a good thing thats its pre existing as its deemed safe and not a "rushed product".

I would'nt see that as a negative at all tbh, rather a big plus.

Apparently most infections happen from nasal exposure.

In fairness to the article it does'nt suggest you abandon SD or mask wearing, but is to be used as an extra layer of protection (Swiss cheese model re: covid protection).

There is suggestions for a while now that if you get a lower viral load exposure
, your infection is more likely to be milder. I can see merit here.

Mask efficacy studies have been alot more inconclusive as to reducing infections than this.

It has also had labratory trials in University of Virginia and a real life efficacy study with volunteers.

https://hubpublishing.co.uk/taffix-the-clinically-tested-7p-a-day-nasal-spray-offering-hope-during-covid/

markodaly

Is there a list of what countries get the vaccines and when? As in a kind of delivery schedule of sorts?

ACitizenErased

markodaly wrote: »

Is there a list of what countries get the vaccines and when? As in a kind of delivery schedule of sorts?

Apparently every EU country is supposed to get it at the same time but based on what I'm reading either we're not ready or the EU is shafting us with initial deliveries.

stephenjmcd

ACitizenErased wrote: »

Apparently every EU country is supposed to get it at the same time but based on what I'm reading either we're not ready or the EU is shafting us with initial deliveries.

Its that they get sent from the production plants on the same day, 26th has been mentioned. After that it takes as long as it takes to get here. Germany & Belgium will for example have them before us well because they're being produced there, would only take an hour or two to reach the countries storage facilities.

From what I've seen the HSE has everything set up for delivery so its just a case of our proportion of initial stock, based on EU criteria being sent from production site.

Once they arrive in country then its up to the country to rollout, this is why I think the EU is saying, they'll ship on 26th and then it'll be 27th, 28th & 29th when you start seeing all the countries starting up the rollout.

EU commission just wants everything co ordinated it appears.

Stark

Tempted to get some of that Taffix stuff though it looks like it might be very expensive? £13.99 for 1000mg and no suggestion that that covers more than one 5hr dose of it.

https://www.taffixprotect.co.uk/product

ACitizenErased

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Its that they get sent from the production plants on the same day, 26th has been mentioned. After that it takes as long as it takes to get here. Germany & Belgium will for example have them before us well because they're being produced there, would only take an hour or two to reach the countries storage facilities.

From what I've seen the HSE has everything set up for delivery so its just a case of our proportion of initial stock, based on EU criteria being sent from production site.

Once they arrive in country then its up to the country to rollout, this is why I think the EU is saying, they'll ship on 26th and then it'll be 27th, 28th & 29th when you start seeing all the countries starting up the rollout.

EU commission just wants everything co ordinated it appears.

I'm not referring to when they're sent, more to how many are sent. Based on what the French and Germans are saying, and what the Taoiseach has said, it seems we're being shafted with the first delivery tbh

ACitizenErased

And just what I was fearing, we're being delivered a small first batch:
https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1339574254245994510?s=20

ACitizenErased

ACitizenErased wrote: »

And just what I was fearing, we're being delivered a small first batch:
https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1339574254245994510?s=20

That's a bit ridiculous, doesn't say much for EU solidarity.

ACitizenErased

ACitizenErased wrote: »

And just what I was fearing, we're being delivered a small first batch:
https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1339574254245994510?s=20

Minimum

stephenjmcd

ACitizenErased wrote: »

And just what I was fearing, we're being delivered a small first batch:
https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1339574254245994510?s=20

To be honest I'm not sure what you were expecting, I'd set my expectations fairly low for a first delivery.

Its being sent to countries based on what the EU agreed a long time ago, the more vulnerable you have the more you get. Bigger countries get more on a population basis.

It was always said we'd get an initial small number with more to follow through January and more over the next few months

stephenjmcd

stephenjmcd wrote: »

To be honest I'm not sure what you were expecting, I'd set my expectations fairly low for a first delivery.

Its being sent to countries based on what the EU agreed a long time ago, the more vulnerable you have the more you get. Bigger countries get more on a population basis.

It was always said we'd get an initial small number with more to follow through January and more over the next few months

I don't think anyone thought the initial small allocation would be one case. Still the freezers will be there ready for the other 1,795,000 they can hold.

leahyl

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think anyone thought the initial small allocation would be one case. Still the freezers will be there ready for the other 1,795,000 they can hold.

How many were people expecting that we'd get in the initial allocation?

ACitizenErased

stephenjmcd wrote: »

To be honest I'm not sure what you were expecting, I'd set my expectations fairly low for a first delivery.

Its being sent to countries based on what the EU agreed a long time ago, the more vulnerable you have the more you get. Bigger countries get more on a population basis.

It was always said we'd get an initial small number with more to follow through January and more over the next few months

I'd expect us to get the same proportion as the rest of the EU. Based on that we're receiving ~8 times less per capita than what France and Germany are receiving.

stephenjmcd

ACitizenErased wrote: »

I'd expect us to get the same proportion as the rest of the EU. Based on that we're receiving ~8 times less per capita than what France and Germany are receiving.

Have you links to what they're receiving?

Just interested to read it and cant seem to find anything on their initial allocations.

munchkin_utd

ACitizenErased wrote: »

Apparently every EU country is supposed to get it at the same time but based on what I'm reading either we're not ready or the EU is shafting us with initial deliveries.

as i said above, on the same day this week as Bavaria completeted construction of 100 mass vaccination centres at trade fair halls and whatnot, Ireland announced that they plan 5 and of that they have made a telephone call chat to 3 of those locations in preliminary discussions about using college facilities

again, who is ready, Germany or NPHET ???

It seems all NPHET can organise quickly are lockdowns

I also can't understand what "intense" negotiations are required with Pfizer. The deal was done, it was meant to be shared proportionally between EU states as the EU allocation was produced, shouldn't be any need for any EU country to do any further negotiating.

ACitizenErased

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Have you links to what they're receiving?

Just interested to read it and cant seem to find anything on their initial allocations.

Posted about it on here yesterday:


"The Taoiseach said today (yesterday) we’re going to have maybe 2 deliveries before year end, each of which are ~5000 doses. That’s about 10,000 doses give or take.

France announced today (yesterday) they expect 1.2 million doses by year end, the equivalent of us receiving 90,000 doses."

https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1339285811947311106?s=20

leahyl

leahyl wrote: »

How many were people expecting that we'd get in the initial allocation?

Approx 1% of what the total EU doses that were available, as ACE is pointing out it looks like we are getting about 0.1%

markodaly

Seems to be a lot of speculation.

We know Ireland is going to get its 1.1% slice of the Pfizer vaccine but how and when remains a question. It seems supply will be an issue and optics wont be great if Germany or France are getting more doses per person than us.

In fairness, it is the same with other countries who have deals with Pfizer. Even though the signed deals for x Million doses some countries won't be getting it for another few months, such as the contract they signed.
The UK and the Americans seem to be first in the queue, along with the EU.

On Moderna, the Americans have 6 million doses ready to go from next week, assuming approval over the next 24-48 hours. That is a lot of vaccines!
Understandable though as they financed that project and want the bulk of the first few months batches being manufactured.
By the end of January, they are going to have a fairly sizeable proportion of their most vulnerable groups vaccinated, which should see an easing of deaths come Feb onwards...

The race is truly on!

brisan

Russman wrote: »

I suspect he knows there's huge potential for screw ups and is setting the bar fairly low.
Maybe its a supply issue though, I mean we can test over 10k per day, no way should it take two months to inject 50k people, twice.

To be fair to the HSE they normally set themselves exceptionally low targets and consistently fail to reach them
Maybe this is the same

ACitizenErased

Deleted User wrote: »

Approx 1% of what the total EU doses that were available, as ACE is pointing out it looks like we are getting about 0.1%

Yeah we're getting about 8-9 times less per capita than somewhere like France is getting per delivery. I hope it's not true but with the numbers we have so far it appears so.

leahyl

This is from an Irish Times article 2 days ago:

"Ireland is due to receive several thousand doses of the vaccine initially as part of its 1.11 per cent share of supplies negotiated by the EU on behalf of member states. But because the vaccine is shipped in consignments of 975 vials, each containing five doses, our initial supply will be almost 5,000 doses.

Authorities say they will need to hold back half of those in order to administer the second dose three weeks later. This means 2,500 people could be in the first cohort of those getting the jab before the new year."

It seems the 1.1% is the total allocation not the initial allocation - I kind of thought it was going to be this way anyway, we were never told that we'd have massive amounts of people vaccinated either before Christmas or shortly after. I'm sure the rollout will will ramp up pretty quickly into January.

seamus

I expect the justifications will all come out in the wash. Someone else mentioned earlier that the allocations will be proportionate to the number of at-risk individuals in each country rather than raw population figures.

There might also be a calculation factored in to account for number of cases per 100k in a given country; the hardest-hit ones get more at the start ?

leahyl

leahyl wrote: »

This is from an Irish Times article 2 days ago:

"Ireland is due to receive several thousand doses of the vaccine initially as part of its 1.11 per cent share of supplies negotiated by the EU on behalf of member states. But because the vaccine is shipped in consignments of 975 vials, each containing five doses, our initial supply will be almost 5,000 doses.

Authorities say they will need to hold back half of those in order to administer the second dose three weeks later. This means 2,500 people could be in the first cohort of those getting the jab before the new year."

It seems the 1.1% is the total allocation not the initial allocation - I kind of thought it was going to be this way anyway, we were never told that we'd have massive amounts of people vaccinated either before Christmas or shortly after. I'm sure the rollout will will ramp up pretty quickly into January.

Exactly but based on the figure France is expecting, the total amount ready for the EU is 8 million. So we should get 80,000.