COVID-19: Vaccine/antidote and testing procedures Megathread [Mod Warning - Post #1]

Deeper Blue

FutureTeashock wrote: »

And I have no interest in reading your slavishly pro vaccines comments either, so it's swings and roundabouts.

Yet you're constantly posting in the vaccine thread? Jog on

FutureTeashock

El Sueño wrote: »

Yet you're constantly posting in the vaccine thread? Jog on

It's a vaccine thread. There is no mention of it being a pro vaccine thread.

You clearly only want pro vaccine views to be displayed, but sadly for you that won't be happening any time soon.

LiquidZeb

FutureTeashock wrote: »

It's a vaccine thread. There is no mention of it being a pro vaccine thread.

You clearly only want pro vaccine views to be displayed, but sadly for you that won't be happening any time soon.

Give us a source of anti vax news please. This'll be good.

FutureTeashock

LiquidZeb wrote: »

Give us a source of anti vax news please. This'll be good.

I'm clearly not "anti vax" because I'm happy for you to take as many vaccines as you so wish.

All I ask for is the right to choose NOT to take a vaccine developed at "warp speed", and not to have onerous restrictions on me for selecting this choice.

Tokyo

FutureTeashock wrote: »

I never once obeyed those restrictions, and I never will.

FutureTeashock wrote: »

Try and impose your restrictions on me and see how that pans out for you.

FutureTeashock wrote: »

And I have no interest in reading your slavishly pro vaccines comments either, so it's swings and roundabouts.

FutureTeashock wrote: »

It's a vaccine thread. There is no mention of it being a pro vaccine thread.

Mod: No - it's a "COVID-19: Vaccine/antidote and testing procedures" thread, so quit it with the "big-man-on-internet" rhetoric and post on the topic at hand.

Marhay70

There is no evidence of a man being put on the moon in the 1940s and even in the 1960s there were many dissenting voices. saying that it was rushed and was just a case of trying to get one over on the Russians with no concern for human life, but by 1969?
Science and technology have taken huge strides even in the last ten years and medical science is no different, there are people alive and well who wouldn't have had a hope twenty years ago.
My own family has numerous instances of early death from TB, Cholera, Diptheria and Measles in the early 20th Century, these once lethal diseases have been largely controlled by vaccines, Smallpox, once the most feared disease on the planet is virtually non existent today, again due to vaccines.
So, while there is never a 100% guarantee with any medication, you have to trust that with so many eminent minds working to the same end, little will be left to chance.
When you consider that millions of us every day put our trust in the manufacturers of a tiny seal in the brake master cylinder of our cars, buses, trucks etc., to keep us from possible fiery oblivion, I think it's reasonable to assume that all precautions will be taken with a vaccine.

hmmm

Good article from two professors of immunobiology at Yale. Probably won't get half as much attention as an article written by a professor of greek literature at the community college in tunstable who believes we will never develop a vaccine would, but that's the world we live in
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/31/opinion/coronavirus-antibodies-immunity.html

"And so a finding that naturally occurring antibodies in some Covid-19 patients are fading doesn’t actually mean very much for the likely efficacy of vaccines under development."

"For measles, which is highly contagious, more than 90 percent of a population must be immunized in order for unvaccinated individuals to also be protected. For Covid-19, the estimated figure — which is unsettled, understandably — ranges between 43 percent and 66 percent.

Given the severe consequences of Covid-19 for many older patients, as well as the disease’s unpredictable course and consequences for the young, the only safe way to achieve herd immunity is through vaccination. That, combined with the fact that SARS-CoV-2 appears not to have yet developed a mechanism to evade detection by our adaptive immune system, is ample reason to double down on efforts to find a vaccine fast."

Marhay70

hmmm wrote: »

Good article from two professors of immunobiology at Yale. Probably won't get half as much attention as an article written by a professor of greek literature at the community college in tunstable who believes we will never develop a vaccine would, but that's the world we live in
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/31/opinion/coronavirus-antibodies-immunity.html

"And so a finding that naturally occurring antibodies in some Covid-19 patients are fading doesn’t actually mean very much for the likely efficacy of vaccines under development."

"For measles, which is highly contagious, more than 90 percent of a population must be immunized in order for unvaccinated individuals to also be protected. For Covid-19, the estimated figure — which is unsettled, understandably — ranges between 43 percent and 66 percent.

Given the severe consequences of Covid-19 for many older patients, as well as the disease’s unpredictable course and consequences for the young, the only safe way to achieve herd immunity is through vaccination. That, combined with the fact that SARS-CoV-2 appears not to have yet developed a mechanism to evade detection by our adaptive immune system, is ample reason to double down on efforts to find a vaccine fast."

Prof. Luke O'Neill commented on this very subject on radio with Pat Kenny a couple of weeks ago saying that too much emphasis might be being put on antibodies for evidence of immunity or lack of. A most interesting man who speaks in layman's language, although I don't pretend to understand all of it, and who is very optimistic that one or more of the forerunners on the vaccine front currently, will prove effective

Hmmzis

hmmm wrote: »

Good article from two professors of immunobiology at Yale. Probably won't get half as much attention as an article written by a professor of greek literature at the community college in tunstable who believes we will never develop a vaccine would, but that's the world we live in
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/31/opinion/coronavirus-antibodies-immunity.html

"And so a finding that naturally occurring antibodies in some Covid-19 patients are fading doesn’t actually mean very much for the likely efficacy of vaccines under development."

"For measles, which is highly contagious, more than 90 percent of a population must be immunized in order for unvaccinated individuals to also be protected. For Covid-19, the estimated figure — which is unsettled, understandably — ranges between 43 percent and 66 percent.

Given the severe consequences of Covid-19 for many older patients, as well as the disease’s unpredictable course and consequences for the young, the only safe way to achieve herd immunity is through vaccination. That, combined with the fact that SARS-CoV-2 appears not to have yet developed a mechanism to evade detection by our adaptive immune system, is ample reason to double down on efforts to find a vaccine fast."

Such a well written and informative article, there should be more of them, everywhere. Thanks for posting the link, I'd have missed it since I've been avoiding news sites since late March.

The whole section about vaccine vs wild type infection is pure gold. The HPV vaccine is my personal favourite so far, the design and results of it have paved the way of undestanding what does a good vaccine make. I hope that at least some of the SARS-cov-2 vaccines will replace that favourite spot.

FutureTeashock

Marhay70 wrote: »

There is no evidence of a man being put on the moon in the 1940s and even in the 1960s there were many dissenting voices. saying that it was rushed and was just a case of trying to get one over on the Russians with no concern for human life, but by 1969?
Science and technology have taken huge strides even in the last ten years and medical science is no different, there are people alive and well who wouldn't have had a hope twenty years ago.
My own family has numerous instances of early death from TB, Cholera, Diptheria and Measles in the early 20th Century, these once lethal diseases have been largely controlled by vaccines, Smallpox, once the most feared disease on the planet is virtually non existent today, again due to vaccines.
So, while there is never a 100% guarantee with any medication, you have to trust that with so many eminent minds working to the same end, little will be left to chance.
When you consider that millions of us every day put our trust in the manufacturers of a tiny seal in the brake master cylinder of our cars, buses, trucks etc., to keep us from possible fiery oblivion, I think it's reasonable to assume that all precautions will be taken with a vaccine.

Not all vaccines are equal, which is why it's ludicrious to call someone an "anti vaxxer" for opposing any individual vaccine.

The dangers of recent vaccines are clear for all to see. This poor young woman found out the hard way just how damaging these things can be.
Woman breaks down in court hearing over swine flu vaccine
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30958982.html

Micky 32

FutureTeashock wrote: »

Not all vaccines are equal, which is why it's ludicrious to call someone an "anti vaxxer" for opposing any individual vaccine.

The dangers of recent vaccines are clear for all to see. This poor young woman found out the hard way just how damaging these things can be.
Woman breaks down in court hearing over swine flu vaccine
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30958982.html

As was said earlier. Don’t take it but if people refuse to take it expect restrictions on your future travel arrangements and rightly so.

The virus is serious. Do You think the vaccine will cause as many deaths worldwide as the virus already has?

Micky 32

FutureTeashock wrote: »

I have serious concerns about the way deaths are being counted. See the example below:

Man who died in motorcycle crash counted as COVID-19 death in Florida: Report

https://cbs12.com/news/local/man-who-died-in-motorcycle-crash-counted-as-covid-19-death-in-florida-report

Because of the dodgy way deaths are being counted, and the different way countries compile their numbers, I have no way of knowing.

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the vaccine did kill or maim more people than the virus itself due to the extreme speed at which it's been developed.

Nothing to do with how deaths are being counted. I know 2 people who went into hospital for minor procedures and caught Covid while in there. They died. They were getting on in years but were quite healthy. I doubt a vaccine would do the same.

You will more likely die from the virus than a vaccine. I think i know what the better proposition is.

Gael23

Do we know who will get the access to early batches of the vaccine?

gmisk

Gael23 wrote: »

Do we know who will get the access to early batches of the vaccine?

Healthcare workers

Gael23

gmisk wrote: »

Healthcare workers

So a very small portion of people then. I was hoping people on immune suppressant medication might be included

Marhay70

FutureTeashock wrote: »

Not all vaccines are equal, which is why it's ludicrious to call someone an "anti vaxxer" for opposing any individual vaccine.

The dangers of recent vaccines are clear for all to see. This poor young woman found out the hard way just how damaging these things can be.
Woman breaks down in court hearing over swine flu vaccine
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30958982.html

My sympathies to the young lady concerned, nobody wants to see developments like this.
As I recall, there was an extensive vaccination campaign at the time and while every medical procedure from taking a paracetamol tablet to brain surgery has some element of risk involved, it would be useful to include the numbers of adverse reactions to the vaccination as opposed to the number of vaccinations carried out. In my recollection, it wasn't huge but I'm open to correction.

Van.Bosch

FutureTeashock wrote: »

Not all vaccines are equal, which is why it's ludicrious to call someone an "anti vaxxer" for opposing any individual vaccine.

The dangers of recent vaccines are clear for all to see. This poor young woman found out the hard way just how damaging these things can be.
Woman breaks down in court hearing over swine flu vaccine
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30958982.html

This is not a hostile question.

You seem to be against the vaccine or at least against a “rushed” vaccine and from other threads I have seen you think the restrictions like pubs should be opened and that travel is currently allowed so people should travel if they want.

I’ve seen a few people with these views and I’m curious of where you are the end game for this? Is it that we live with it and X people will die etc like any other virus or is there a course of action you think should be followed? Or do you believe it will die out itself?

Thanks

Micky 32

Sonething i have wondered about. For people who take the vaccine can they still be carriers of the virus and still spread it to people who are not vaccinated?

Van.Bosch

Micky 32 wrote: »

Sonething i have wondered about. For people who take the vaccine can they still be carriers of the virus and still spread it to people who are not vaccinated?

Open to correction but don’t think so

Marhay70

Micky 32 wrote: »

Sonething i have wondered about. For people who take the vaccine can they still be carriers of the virus and still spread it to people who are not vaccinated?

I would imagine for a short time it may be possible but as the aim of the vaccine is to either kill the virus or stop it replicating itself (same outcome) then presumably there would be no virus left to spread.

Hmmzis

Marhay70 wrote: »

My sympathies to the young lady concerned, nobody wants to see developments like this.
As I recall, there was an extensive vaccination campaign at the time and while every medical procedure from taking a paracetamol tablet to brain surgery has some element of risk involved, it would be useful to include the numbers of adverse reactions to the vaccination as opposed to the number of vaccinations carried out. In my recollection, it wasn't huge but I'm open to correction.

Development of narcolepsy after the Pandermix was largely dependent on a particular gene mutation expressing MHC (very important protein class in the immune system, it helps distinguish self from foreign proteins). Children and adolescents having this mutation had an aproximate chance of 1 in 4500 developing narcolepsy. The overall chance was about 4 times lower, but still multiple times above the regular 1 in 100000 cases of narcolepsy.

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6413474/

I had been under the impression for a long time it was the adjuvant, but since this keeps getting dragged out consistently, I did some further reading.

Turns out, it was the virus itself used in the vaccine and quite likely the inactivation process.(ADE in SARS anyone?). In particular, a protein on its surface that is very similar to the protein in humans controlling REM sleep. In Pandermix this protein was overrepresented compared to the other vaccine at the time. That in turn makes the antibodies bind to the protein regardless if it's on the virus or your own cells.

Ironically enough, the H1N1 'Swine Flu' strain caused increases in narcolepsy in wild type infections as well.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/07/why-pandemic-flu-shot-caused-narcolepsy

While this was a very tragic outcome for a lot of people, it helped scientists understand the mechanisms behind narcolepsy. Once you understand the mechanism, it's possible to think of a way to treat the condition. It should also make future vaccine efforts much safer as now there is a greater understanding of the dangers that we need to look out for (surface protein to self protein matching, delete the self mimics from the vaccine sequence and be absolutelly anal about whole-virus inactivation processes).

This was a good education for me.

Hmmzis

Micky 32 wrote: »

Sonething i have wondered about. For people who take the vaccine can they still be carriers of the virus and still spread it to people who are not vaccinated?

Depends on the vaccine and how well your immune system responded to it.

From the current candidates the single dose of J&J could give you and the people around you protection if you get exposed to the virus. That's called sterilising immunity, the virus gets disabled the moment it gets in your body or very shortly after.
Most other candidates we have data for in the public will need two shots (prime-boost) to get the same result.
The single dose ChAdOx1and prime-boost Innovio would provide partial protection. They'll save your life, most likely will prevent even you needing a hospital visit and might only give you a mild case if exposes to the wild type virus, BUT they will not protect others around you from you spreading the virus (still, a good option for the vulnerable population at large).

ACitizenErased

There’s talk about the Oxford one still not providing sterilising immunity as far as I’m aware?

Hmmzis

ACitizenErased wrote: »

There’s talk about the Oxford one still not providing sterilising immunity as far as I’m aware?

The single dose regimen has been suspected that way since the rhesus macaques challenge study came out showing viral replication in the nose (given, it was a very high dose in the challenge). They've since moved to a prime-boost regimen, hopefully that will sort the 'nose-problem'.

Gael23

Hmmzis wrote: »

The single dose regimen has been suspected that way since the rhesus macaques challenge study came out showing viral replication in the nose (given, it was a very high dose in the challenge). They've since moved to a prime-boost regimen, hopefully that will sort the 'nose-problem'.

By prime boost you mean a second dose?

timmy_mallet

Polar101 wrote: »

Yeah, and a lot of those people read on social media that vaccines are bad for you. And usually because they "know someone, who got narcolepsy".

To me it makes more sense to trust a vaccine developed by medical scientists, which might help to end a pandemic, than be wary of it because someone on the internet said it could be risky.

I think your naiive.

FutureTeashock

Van.Bosch wrote: »

This is not a hostile question.

You seem to be against the vaccine or at least against a “rushed” vaccine and from other threads I have seen you think the restrictions like pubs should be opened and that travel is currently allowed so people should travel if they want.

I’ve seen a few people with these views and I’m curious of where you are the end game for this? Is it that we live with it and X people will die etc like any other virus or is there a course of action you think should be followed? Or do you believe it will die out itself?

Thanks

If I were Teashock now, I would instruct all citizens with underlying health conditions and/or a fear of Covid-19 to isolate and restrict their movements as necessary, with full support provided.

I would open everything as normal and warn the healthy people who choose to live freely about the risks of doing so.

I think by crashing the economy, many people will commit suicide due to their businesses failing or due to the extreme social isolation, so the best approach is to manage this situation as best as we can.

When a vaccine becomes available, all those who wish to take it should be made aware of the plethora of risks due to the extreme speed in which it's been developed, but it would fully be up to each individual.

How do you rate my manifesto?

hmmm

What many of these people who say that vaccines take years to develop forget, is that much of our current vaccine candidates are based on technologies and research done into SARS 1 - when SARS 2 was revealed, the researchers were quickly able to pivot 17 years of research and start work on their current vaccines. Statnews had a good article on this recently:

https://www.statnews.com/2020/07/30/a-huge-experiment-how-the-world-made-so-much-progress-on-a-covid-19-vaccine-so-fast/

hmmm

Van.Bosch wrote: »

I’ve seen a few people with these views and I’m curious of where you are the end game for this? Is it that we live with it and X people will die etc like any other virus or is there a course of action you think should be followed? Or do you believe it will die out itself?

I suspect if you are an anti-vaxxer, there is no way out of this other than to let it run loose through the population. They think they'll be fine, and they are willing to sacrifice everyone vulnerable so that they can get back to drinking pints in their local. I suspect the answer to your question then becomes - why wait?

FutureTeashock

hmmm wrote: »

What many of these people who say that vaccines take years to develop forget, is that much of our current vaccine candidates are based on technologies and research done into SARS 1 - when SARS 2 was revealed, the researchers were quickly able to pivot 17 years of research and start work on their current vaccines. Statnews had a good article on this recently:

https://www.statnews.com/2020/07/30/a-huge-experiment-how-the-world-made-so-much-progress-on-a-covid-19-vaccine-so-fast/

Covid-19 is supposedly a totally new virus transmuted from a bat.

How could you possibly copy and paste 17 year old research when dealing with such a novel, freak occurrence?