Restricted works, smart doorbells and the PSA

2011

Regarding this thread:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057679908&page=27

See post #402

I think it is interesting that the PSA states that from a legal perspective only a PSA registered installer should be installing smart doorbells as the cameras are for security use. There is no mention in their email that if the doorbell transformer needs to be replaced (often the case) and it is installed in the distribution board (also the norm in Ireland) then legally this should be by a REC.

A transformer with a 16V output is recommended for Ring doorbells and a 24V output is best for the Nest doorbells. Many transformers are 8 or 12V, as such it is best to change them out.

I don’t like the idea of a PSA installer (or anyone else) that is not a qualified electrician working on a DB even though I know many of them do this.

Syncpolice

2011 wrote: »

Regarding this thread:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057679908&page=27

See post #402

I think it is interesting that the PSA states that from a legal perspective only a PSA registered installer should be installing smart doorbells as the cameras are for security use. There is no mention in their email that if the doorbell transformer needs to be replaced (often the case) and it is installed in the distribution board (also the norm in Ireland) then legally this should be by a REC.

A transformer with a 16V output is recommended for Ring doorbells and a 24V output is best for the Nest doorbells. Many transformers are 8 or 12V, as such it is best to change them out.

I don’t like the idea of a PSA installer (or anyone else) that is not a qualified electrician working on a DB even though I know many of them do this.

Any electrical work I ever came across from alarm installers was brutal

Wouldn't trust them in a DB

2011

Syncpolice wrote: »

Any electrical work I ever came across from alarm installers was brutal

Wouldn't trust them in a DB

I’m not trying to undermine the alarm installers. They are just trying to make a living like the rest of us. My comment is directed more at the PSA who’s email suggests that to stay on the right side of the law all you need to consider is using a PSA installer when getting a smart doorbell installed.

listermint

Interesting thread, but why would the fact that its a camera mean someone has to be PSA qualified to put it on your house.

I mean i can get a camera in argos or even Aldi and through it above my front door with no involvement from anyone.


doorbell or not.

2011

listermint wrote: »

Interesting thread, but why would the fact that its a camera mean someone has to be PSA qualified to put it on your house.

I mean i can get a camera in argos or even Aldi and through it above my front door with no involvement from anyone.


doorbell or not.

Think of it like an intruder alarm. Only a PSA licensed installer should install it. However this is impossible to police.

I have argued before that some cameras have nothing to do with security. For example I installed CCTV for a farmer because he wanted to observe when his cattle were calving.

dathi

listermint wrote: »

Interesting thread, but why would the fact that its a camera mean someone has to be PSA qualified to put it on your house.

I mean i can get a camera in argos or even Aldi and through it above my front door with no involvement from anyone.


doorbell or not.

https://www.psa.gov.ie/en/PSA/PSA%2022A%20-%20Information%20Note%20on%20CCTV.pdf/Files/PSA%2022A%20-%20Information%20Note%20on%20CCTV.pdf

as you can see from above link you can install it diy without psa but if you hire someone they must be registered . also cctv for livestock control is excluded

2011

dathi wrote: »

as you can see from above link you can install it diy without psa but if you hire someone they must be registered

Only if the DIY installer is a REC which generally isn’t the case. So it would seem that the PSA have confused you with their incomplete information.

Even a PSA installer is not permitted unless he/she is a REC, which is very rarely the case.

The only exceptions to the above is if this could be achieved without working on the distribution board which frequently isn’t the case (for the reasons I have above).

also cctv for livestock control is excluded

Yes, that is exactly my point.

Sleeper12

Isn't this like the automatic gates situation? Not all automatic gates are for security. Smart door bell isn't necessarily only for security.

dathi

2011 wrote: »

Only if the DIY installer is a REC which generally isn’t the case. So it would seem that the PSA have confused you with their incomplete information.

Even a PSA installer is not permitted unless he/she is a REC, which is very rarely the case.

The only exceptions to the above is if this could be achieved without working on the distribution board which frequently isn’t the case (for the reasons I have above).



Yes, that is exactly my point.

was replying to the question about argos cctv as they are wired backed to a plug in recorder they can be installed diy I am well aware of requirement to use Rec to wire into distribution board

2011

dathi wrote: »

was replying to the question about argos cctv as they are wired backed to a plug in recorder they can be installed diy

Yes, you are correct about that.

I am well aware of requirement to use Rec to wire into distribution board

Perhaps it would be good if the PSA made people aware of that fact when stating that a PSA installer must be used for a Ring video doorbell

Padre_Pio

I'm only vaguely familiar with PSA, but isn't it a course and a fee?

I'm sure there's a few electricians who have PSA licenses, so you could look at that option.

Also, if you self-install, there's no legal loophole where your CCTV footage is void because the camera wasn't installed by a registered PSA installer.

2011

Padre_Pio wrote: »

I'm only vaguely familiar with PSA, but isn't it a course and a fee?

Just a fee. No course or qualifications required. A background check is a must and some sort of indication that you have an understanding of what you are at. Not much else required.

I'm sure there's a few electricians who have PSA licenses, so you could look at that option.

Yes. My point is the PSA should state this when answering a question on this topic.

Also, if you self-install, there's no legal loophole where your CCTV footage is void because the camera wasn't installed by a registered PSA installer.

No such loophole. Phone footage is frequently used in court to convict even when taken my mere mortals that have no such license.

dathi

2011 wrote: »

Just a fee. No course or qualifications required. A background check is a must and some sort of indication that you have an understanding of what you are at. Not much else required.

https://www.psa.gov.ie/en/PSA/PSA%20Security%20Service%20Providers%20PSA%2074%202019.pdf/Files/PSA%20Security%20Service%20Providers%20PSA%2074%202019.pdf

just a tad more

2011

dathi wrote: »

https://www.psa.gov.ie/en/PSA/PSA%20Security%20Service%20Providers%20PSA%2074%202019.pdf/Files/PSA%20Security%20Service%20Providers%20PSA%2074%202019.pdf

just a tad more

Hardly even a “tad” beyond what any business requires.
Did you read the link?

alta stare

I work in the security industry and i find the PSA don't seem to know what they want from installers half the time. Their big thing now from what i have come across is Gate Automation. They seem to be ensuring this is done as should and proper order i guess.

Regarding a DIY install....i as an installer can "advise" a person on an install and as long as there is no financial gain on my end then id be doing nothing wrong even if i am not registered with the PSA. So they tell us.

All these smart door bells....the cctv end of it is a minefield regarding gdpr and the likes. In a domestic setting it would appear to be do as you like but if the camera can see on to a public space then an issue can arise.

The PSA like RECI is only good if they are catching the cowboys but im afraid they dont seem to be doing that too much.

Padre_Pio

alta stare wrote: »

I
All these smart door bells....the cctv end of it is a minefield regarding gdpr and the likes. In a domestic setting it would appear to be do as you like but if the camera can see on to a public space then an issue can arise.
.

Doesn't it only matter if your camera records private property?

I thought public space was fair game for recording.

alta stare

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Doesn't it only matter if your camera records private property?

I thought public space was fair game for recording.

If you have a camera on a private dwelling facing on to the road where the public pass or it is facing on to someone's property then your use of the camera can be questioned. How likely that is would be very small but as i have argued in the security forum here before it is possibilty.

As for smart door bells, they can pose a problem for the owner if they face into someone elses property. The resolution of these devices is getting better by the day so they have a clear fov more than ever and are more than capable of capturing your neighbour across the street. Would it stop me from installing one? Absolutely not but i would be prepared for a knock on the door.