Where did it come from, what caused it

archer22

sonofenoch wrote: »

Wet markets are run by criminal gangs mostly.......it's a bit like saying this heroin business has to stop

Yes, and its huge business a lot of the endangered species including Pangolin, Rhino horn and Elephant ivory and a host of others is smuggled into the PRC via Hong Kong which of course has no extradition treaty with the PRC.

Hong Kong is to China what the border counties are to Ireland...there was more to the anti extradition protests in Hong Kong recently than just "freedom and democracy."

4068ac1elhodqr

darjeeling wrote: »

The lab mostly works with swab samples collected in the field, not with actual bats, or with viruses cultured from those samples.

Perhaps, one of the tabloids (not to be taken as exact) https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1243000/coronavirus-latest-lab-leak-infected-bat-attack-outbreak-patient-zero-bioweapon
said a bat bit a chap, and another took a wee on someone else in that lab, that they used live bats (x605) at one stage, collected from nearby regions.

Suckit

Mysteriouschic wrote: »

I've read it's came from a bat which the virus jumped to pangolin .

https://www.livescience.com/first-case-coronavirus-found.html

A 55-year-old individual from Hubei province in China may have been the first person to have contracted COVID-19, the disease caused by the new coronavirus spreading across the globe. That case dates back to Nov. 17, 2019, according to the South Morning China Post.
That's more than a month earlier than doctors noted cases in Wuhan, China, which is in Hubei province, at the end of December 2019......


.......Scientists now suspect this coronavirus, SARS-CoV-2, originated in a bat and somehow hopped to another animal, possibly the pangolin, which then passed it on to humans. The disease is now spreading between people without any animal intermediary.

https://futurism.com/neoscope/patient-zero-coronavirus-china

Thelonious Monk

I think they grind up the scales of pangolins to get erections or something ridiculous like that. Their numbers have dwindled greatly because of this. They are such cute little animals, it's a pity.

Jinglejangle69

The chinese.

A Great bunch of lads.

dwayneshintzy

archer22 wrote: »

Yes, and its huge business a lot of the endangered species including Pangolin, Rhino horn and Elephant ivory and a host of others is smuggled into the PRC via Hong Kong which of course has no extradition treaty with the PRC.

Hong Kong is to China what the border counties are to Ireland...there was more to the anti extradition protests in Hong Kong recently than just "freedom and democracy."

So what more was there to the protests, then? What's your implication here?

Xertz

Gates is completely correct, but the thinking in politics was "epidemics happen in developing countries" and I think they genuinely think of China, despite everything in the recent decades, as an "emerging market economy" so, it's assumed that stuff that happens there couldn't possibly happen in the US or EU.

Unfortunately, I think it's that level of complacency that's brought us here.

It started in China, but it could have started from any number of sources. The fact is we didn't have the systems in place to contain it as we're not good at long-term planning. It's a world that's been increasingly about quarterly results and following numbers on stock exchanges.

4068ac1elhodqr

Xertz wrote: »

Gates is completely correct, but the thinking in politics was "epidemics happen in developing countries" and I think they genuinely think of China, despite everything in the recent decades, as an "emerging market economy" so, it's assumed that stuff that happens there couldn't possibly happen in the US or EU.

Not so much 'not thinking about China', but the ex-Microsoft chap has had focus for decades now, only on the 1.5bn citizens of the developing world, for other reasons, co-realted to flu (vaccines) and such like (digitalIDs).

Many historic seasonal flus start off in China anyway, perhaps Inf.A/B. Then there was the Swine one, more recently H5N1 and single H7N9. They're usually managed, this latest one is a bit nasty.

Xertz

That and it's not flu.

4068ac1elhodqr

Xertz wrote: »

That and it's not flu.

If it looks (at 0.1Micron), walks, and talks like a coronavirus it most likely is.

Not really important where it came from, the bigger picture is what opportunities or effects it may have now, or if some would possibly benefit from such a dire situation.

_Brian

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The more I read/hear about these wet markets, the more they stand out to me as a practice which has to be extinguished in the aftermath of this pandemic. I see people post that China should be sanctioned or worse, but the most powerful western nation owes China a trillion plus, not to mention EU-China trade relations and dependence, so good luck with any kind of War on China. More realistically, pressure needs to grow on China to address these wet markets.

The people who avail of wet markets, it's not like they are saying "Fúck it, I think I'll choose the Shat-On Pangolin today rather than the farmed Fillet Mignon or Free Range Chicken." These people are eating such bizarrities out of necessity primarily. However, they have been doing it for so long through so many generations now, at this point it is also ingrained in their culture. You could solve poverty and modernise farming and agriculture in these regions, but you will still get a citizen professing their right to eat a bat.

I've been listening to some of Sam Harris' podcasts during this pandemic, and I like them for cutting through much of the bullshít that is around and for being non-sensationalist. Even at that, Sam and his guest last night were talking about these wet markets and comparing them to bioterrorism and how they must be clamped down on and addressed as such.

Already there have been mass outbreaks, death and societal upheaval traced to these wet markets from previous outbreaks. They should have been addressed by now. I get that they exist because of a complex mix of social and cultural reasons and that I'm saying this from a position of relative comfort in the West, but when they have the ability to bring the world to a standstill and create so much havoc, something has to be done.

They are the perfect environment for inadvertently creating all kinds of fúcked up primordial soup, far worse than COVID-19. As bad as this is, it could be so much worse in terms of the physical effects and/or mortality rate when it comes to deadly new viruses and strains which can spring in wet markets.

The tradition of eating out of these wet markets has actually become a middle class thing to display wealth.
Most ordinary Chinese folk eat pork, duck, fish, chicken and tofu with their rice.

They also pose as a convenient cover for selling illegal animals.

Hopefully enough persuasion can be applied to end the practice and hopefully the Chinese authorities can stop them going underground.

However going underground by their nature may break up the size and lessen the viral risk.

bladespin

sonofenoch wrote: »

Wet markets are run by criminal gangs mostly.......it's a bit like saying this heroin business has to stop

Not nearly as profitable or as 'acceptable'to foreign governments, I'd imagine the Chinese themselves will be encouraging them to close (I don't think most criminals would do well against them) and they'll have plenty of 'out-side' assistance after the dust settles.


I wouldn't fancy being part of one of those gangs right now.

expectationlost

it seems Chinese vacation in Palau (a tiny Island group way off the Philipines) and eat bat soup there https://observers.france24.com/en/20200203-china-coronavirus-bat-soup-debunk-videos-viral-palau-indonesia

sonofenoch

sonofenoch wrote: »

Wet markets are run by criminal gangs mostly.......it's a bit like saying this heroin business has to stop

I really don't think there is the will to address the heroin problem from governments on a global scale that there is to address this problem.

Sure, prohibition has never worked and only forces the prohibited trade underground, but that would be acceptable to me as a start here.

dwayneshintzy

"wet markets" aren't just markets that sell live and wild animals.

"Wet markets" are just any large market with perishable goods (fruit, veg, meat, etc). The problem is the live animals mixing; wet markets in Taiwan, Macau, Hong Kong, etc aren't nearly what you'd think if you've the idea you'll be seeing live pangolins, civet cats, alligators, etc

Mysteriouschic

It’s strange the Chinese people who tried to warn everyone about this virus got punished or exiled

https://www.businessinsider.com/china-coronavirus-whistleblowers-speak-out-vanish-2020-2

skellig_rocks

Mysteriouschic wrote: »

It’s strange the Chinese people who tried to warn everyone about this virus got punished or exiled

https://www.businessinsider.com/china-coronavirus-whistleblowers-speak-out-vanish-2020-2

This is how the Chinese Government work. They deal with people raising the issues rather than the actual issues, until it is too late. This is just the DNA of Chinese Communist Party.



Some previous coverups:


2002 SARS
2008 Chinese milk scandal
2008 Sichuan earthquake
2011 Wenzhou train collision


This coronavirus crisis got so much attention because it affects everyone in the world.

paw patrol

Blueshoe wrote: »

Laboratory in Wuhan. Part owned by Soros

i cant understand why people (mods too) get pissy on the mention of the laboratory.

Its chinas highest level lab - yet we are expected to believe it had no hand in the virus that the animal market, with it's dark ages technology, across the street brought the world to a stand still.
come on there is naïve and then there is fcuking naïve.

I'm not saying it was released on purpose

Gentlemanne

Blueshoe wrote: »

Laboratory in Wuhan. Part owned by Soros

It is mind boggling to me that American conspiracy theories about George Soros being behind everything, a lot of which are just blatantly anti-semitic, have even fooled Irish people.

DeVore

paw patrol wrote: »

i cant understand why people (mods too) get pissy on the mention of the laboratory.

Its chinas highest level lab - yet we are expected to believe it had no hand in the virus that the animal market, with it's dark ages technology, across the street brought the world to a stand still.
come on there is naïve and then there is fcuking naïve.

I'm not saying it was released on purpose

Because nature is a LOT better than man at creating viruses. Its a perfectly honed machine for it, given the proper (bad) circumstances. Which the markets gave it in abundance, right accross Asia and the Middle East. (the ME in MERS stands for Middle Eastern!).

Its far far far more likely that this is the source than some Soros funded, what? I don't even know what the current conspiracy is. Its just, by Occams Razor, completely unlikely. So please stop with the poor logic.

dwayneshintzy

Nevermind that the idea that Soros is even a part owner is bollocks; https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/mar/19/facebook-posts/conspiracy-theory-falsely-connects-george-soros-co/

BorneTobyWilde

All we know is it's a virus out of China, it started there through their practices of selling and eating various animal meats that others simply would not.
Needs banning those practices and those disgusting individuals involved in such trade. Shirley China can stop it, if they wanted.

Wibbs

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Shirley China can stop it

Must. Resist. Airplane. Reference.

Morrisseeee

Maybe we should keep an open mind about this
Read this and look at this >

Hmmmm..........interesting !

skellig_rocks

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Maybe we should keep an open mind about this
Read this and look at this >

Hmmmm..........interesting !

I watched the video. He keeps saying CDC is not transparent about those mystery illnesses happened in the US.


However you could apply the same theory to the lab in Wuhan:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuhan_Institute_of_Virology


And Chinese government won't let you to investiagte their labs.


In fact WHO team wasn't allowed in Wuhan until late February, when the peak of outbreak is over. And the team were not allow to visit sensitive "dirty area":


https://en.australia51.com/article/6151DD84-C03D-5B1B-6BEC-0B4E42A5EBF3/

Also Wuhan seafood market was disinfected on 31 December 2019, hence no more evidence for possible investigative teams.

"Qu Shiqian, a vendor at the seafood market, said government officials had disinfected the premises on Tuesday and told stallholders to wear masks."

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3044050/mystery-illness-hits-chinas-wuhan-city-nearly-30-hospitalised

Wibbs

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Maybe we should keep an open mind about this
Read this and look at this >

Hmmmm..........interesting !

The guy is a well known Chinese supporter, even shill. Some of the Chinese commentators are doing their own "well it wasn't our fault" and pointing at America, he's just doing it in English. His "evidence" is massive conjecture and then he backtracks to make the easily swayed think he's being "balanced". Of course the ominous music running throughout...

skellig_rocks

There is also a history of lab incident in China:

https://www.nature.com/news/inside-the-chinese-lab-poised-to-study-world-s-most-dangerous-pathogens-1.21487

"But worries surround the Chinese lab, too. The SARS virus has escaped from high-level containment facilities in Beijing multiple times, notes Richard Ebright, a molecular biologist at Rutgers University in Piscataway, New Jersey."

Gretas Gonna Get Ya!

skellig_rocks wrote: »

This is how the Chinese Government work. They deal with people raising the issues rather than the actual issues, until it is too late. This is just the DNA of Chinese Communist Party.

They seem to have dealt pretty well with the issues involved in preventing the spread of this virus within their country. It's actually quite astonishing just how well they have done in this regard!

Communism has been a big success in China overall. I'm not a fan of it, but that's the objective truth! Look at where they came from not even 100 years ago...

boogerballs

Honest question and not suggesting any Conspiracy Theories.

These wet markets have been around for decades, the locals have been eating animals that have been mixed/stored/prepared with other animals for all that time. Why now does a virus just appear. I know there has been MERS and SARS but would it not be a case where these viruses are more common if its just caused by the whole setup of these markets?

skellig_rocks

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

They seem to have dealt pretty well with the issues involved in preventing the spread of this virus within their country. It's actually quite astonishing just how well they have done in this regard!

Communism has been a big success in China overall. I'm not a fan of it, but that's the objective truth! Look at where they came from not even 100 years ago...

Well if you are happy to be locked up in your house for a month (NOT 14 days btw), no free internet access and watch only good news fed by the government, hundreds of CCTVs watching you, real time mobile phone tracking, got sent to hostipal/camp when you have a sight fever. Also with no social welfare payment during the time out of work. Then of course full lockdowns in China would work.

Also don't forget if you are Wuhanese or from Hubei, so much discrimination they faced (still facing) INSIDE China.

Hypocrisy they dislike Trump choice of words while they discriminated their own citizens.

I wouldn't trade being in Ireland (or even in Italy now) to be at China, even now.