Leaving Cert 2020 arrangements due to COVID-19

mdudy

spurious wrote: »

What do you want? No exam?
It's postponed a bit. Not the end of the world.

Yes, obviously they should be cancelled. Ireland has an unhealthy, obsessive relationship with the Leaving Cert and teachers unwilling to give predictive grades.

This is going to predominantly affect those from lower-socioeconomic backgrounds as those who can afford to try again, not try at all (and go to a grinds school), or try with a supportive and healthy home-life conducive to studying, will do so. Never-mind those who want to study outside of the state.

To continue with an unclear policy, exacerbating the mental health effects of both the Leaving Cert and the coronavirus, is just plain cruel. Most sensible people will not envisage exam halls in Summer, and it is ridiculous that the government continues with this policy.

They should consider what the UK its doing or devise their own strategy. Of all the things the pandemic has presented this is an easy problem to solve, of which the government seem reluctant to solve adequately.

byhookorbycrook

What do you suggest, mdudy?

randylonghorn

It's far from a perfect solution, but there are no perfect solutions these days.

Predictive grades are a non-runner imho.

Even in the UK (where they have some experience of them) they have only been used heretofore for provisional college offers, subject to confirmation after final results.

And they have not been relevant at all for those not going on to third level.

I suspect that even there they won't be as easy to implement as Johnson et al think, even given that A-levels have more / earlier submission of CA / coursework. I would expect to see court cases arising out of students feeling they were disadvantaged tbh.

Here, they would be a complete nightmare. We have no experience of them here, we have no quality control system for them. Some teachers will (consciously or more likely unconsciously) be more generous than others. And what about the grind schools / businesses who sell themselves on their results? What about students repeating LC externally?

There are real problems with this, I agree, but I think there are far more / worse problems with trying to use predictive grading.

I do think that this crisis may well spur a re-think of the LC in the future, mind you.

Jijsaw

As a veteran of the Leaving Cert threads (2015 Leaving Cert, by God I'm old).

If I had got predictive grades:

The max my English teacher ever gave me was a 'B2' in HL English.
I got a 'C2' in English in the mocks.

In the real thing I got an A1.


With the marks I got in my mocks (about 460-ish), I would not have got the course that I'm finishing this June (two essays left and I'm free!).

I don't know why anyone would want predictive grades because there will be severe restrictions, you mightn't get the H1 or H2 that you would have got if you sat an actual exam.

Just keep practicing the exam papers and using videos to cover the bits of material your teachers haven't done yet, if they're refusing to teach online (as a lot of my former teachers are doing). The marking schemes are there to show you what to do.

randylonghorn

Jijsaw wrote: »

As a veteran of the Leaving Cert threads (2015 Leaving Cert, by God I'm old).

Here ya go, Jij!

Jijsaw wrote: »

If I had got predictive grades:

The max my English teacher ever gave me was a 'B2' in HL English.

In fairness, though, many teachers will mark you a bit under what they think you deserve during the year lest you get complacent.

I totally agree with you on your broader points tho.

naxmax9

So stressed

spurious wrote: »

What do you want? No exam?
It's postponed a bit. Not the end of the world.

Predicted grades. I know it isn't fair for everyone but I believe it would have been the best option to cancel the LC and people not happy can do an exam at a later date

combat14

by hook or by crook

mdudy

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

What do you suggest, mdudy?

As I suggested in my post, Ireland should look to the UK.

I would suggest a predicted grade approach. And if students are not happy with their predicted grades, the option to sit exams later in year (as in November/December, when, hopefully, life will be returning to some semblance of normality). Just because teachers are uncomfortable giving predicted grades doesn't mean they shouldn't.

They could look at implementing randomised, open-book exams for certain subjects, subject to the same plagiarism checks the universities use.

It's not that hard for a government to be creative with this. Their solution lacks any credible thought process other than 'postpone and hope for the best'

randylonghorn wrote: »

Even in the UK (where they have some experience of them) they have only been used heretofore for provisional college offers, subject to confirmation after final results.

[...]

I suspect that even there they won't be as easy to implement as Johnson et al think, even given that A-levels have more / earlier submission of CA / coursework. I would expect to see court cases arising out of students feeling they were disadvantaged tbh.

This is just false. Say what you want about them but unconditional offers exist.

Also, lol. A court won't even look at that provided there was a reasonable alternative, which there is: they can sit any exam they want to if they are not happy with their grade.

rainbowtrout

mdudy wrote: »

I would suggest a predicted grade approach. And if students are not happy with their predicted grades, the option to sit exams later in year (as in November/December, when, hopefully, life will be returning to some semblance of normality).

Work through the process of predicated grades for a minute....

So imagine the LC is cancelled, and predictive grades are used instead. Those who get their first choice in college will be happy with the system because it worked for them, those who do not get their first choice won't be happy.... and there would be far more of them than the former.

Under the current system, students get grades based on their performance in the exam, they have a right to view their scripts and a right to appeal any and all grades. They even have the right to appeal the appeal. At the end of all of that their grades are turned into a score. If their score is good enough based on the number of people that apply for a course and the number of places on it and where they feature in that list, they will be offered the course or not. Lots of students miss out on their first choice every year, but are accepting of the system... they didn't get the points.

If they were to miss out on a course because of a predicted grade, how do they even begin to appeal it? How do we ascertain students did or didn't make the grade for course requirements, the most obvious one being a H5 in HL Irish for Primary School Teaching?

And saying if they are not happy they can take an exam later in the year is a cop out. That exam is now being provided to them in July/August. If they were to do an exam in the winter (aside from the logistics), they've still missed the first year of college.

There isn't a single teacher in the country who could stand over a set of grades with 100% confidence and say 'this is definitely what they would have got'.


Jijsaw mentions above the case where he never got more than a B2 in class and got an A1 in the LC. We all know someone who had that kind of outcome in a subject in terms of a grade jump. Myself, way back when never got higher than a C in English the whole way through school. Got a B in my Leaving Cert.

We can stand over the grades given in a state run, standardised exam. We cannot stand over predictions.

Yes, it's crap for Leaving Certs, but this is crap for everyone. Those that have a bit of cop on will take the situation for what it is and get on with it as best they can. Life throws curveballs at people all the time.

History Queen

I'm a teacher and have mixed views on today, in particular I think the lack of clarity is greater now than before and I have huge concerns for my students and indeed every student in this cohort. Nevertheless, I cannot understand the desire for predicted grades? I outline my main issues below:

One problem with predicted grades is accountability, I'm a teacher, if I give say a predicted grade of H5 based on tests so far/homework/whatever parameters and a student wants to appeal it how does that work? What if the student claima I'm biased and uses example of 20 Vsware notes I have given said student as evidence? Other teachers haven't given this student any where near as many notes therefore I must be biased and giving them a poor predicted grade out of spite. Now as the teacher I'd argue that I'm consistant in my approach and every note was warrented and went undisputed at the time. Who decides which view is correct? How does a teacher and indeed a student ensure fairness?

Second issue, comparisons to the UK system. Students there KNOW that there is a predicted grade system in place and it is a well established system every year used to offer preliminary places pending eventual results. Students know how important these preliminary grades are and work towards them. Applying it retrospectively is grossly unfair as neither students nor teachers were operating with the intention of mocks/class tests etc being used for this purpose.

Third issue, mock examinations are notoriously inconsistant. There are two different companies so student's have sat different papers in wach subject with arguably different levels of difficulty. Some teachers adapt the paper, some teach to the exam/give students hints, some tell the students nothing about the exam prior to them sitting it. Some teachers correct their own mock exams, some send them for external correction. Standards of correction depend on who gets your set. Some mock examiners have SEC marking experience, some are primary school teachers, some are college students. The LC has a lot of problems admittedly, but at least the papers and marking are absolutely consistent (within a given cohort) with a lot of checks and balances to ensure that consistency.

I don't have a solution. I'm floored by the announcement today and hope that more clarity will be given sooner rather than later.

mdudy

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Work through the process of predicated grades for a minute....

So imagine the LC is cancelled, and predictive grades are used instead. Those who get their first choice in college will be happy with the system because it worked for them, those who do not get their first choice won't be happy.... and there would be far more of them than the former.

Under the current system, students get grades based on their performance in the exam, they have a right to view their scripts and a right to appeal any and all grades. They even have the right to appeal the appeal. At the end of all of that their grades are turned into a score. If their score is good enough based on the number of people that apply for a course and the number of places on it and where they feature in that list, they will be offered the course or not. Lots of students miss out on their first choice every year, but are accepting of the system... they didn't get the points.

If they were to miss out on a course because of a predicted grade, how do they even begin to appeal it? How do we ascertain students did or didn't make the grade for course requirements, the most obvious one being a H5 in HL Irish for Primary School Teaching?

And saying if they are not happy they can take an exam later in the year is a cop out. That exam is now being provided to them in July/August. If they were to do an exam in the winter (aside from the logistics), they've still missed the first year of college.

There isn't a single teacher in the country who could stand over a set of grades with 100% confidence and say 'this is definitely what they would have got'.


Jijsaw mentions above the case where he never got more than a B2 in class and got an A1 in the LC. We all know someone who had that kind of outcome in a subject in terms of a grade jump. Myself, way back when never got higher than a C in English the whole way through school. Got a B in my Leaving Cert.

We can stand over the grades given in a state run, standardised exam. We cannot stand over predictions.

Yes, it's crap for Leaving Certs, but this is crap for everyone. Those that have a bit of cop on will take the situation for what it is and get on with it as best they can. Life throws curveballs at people all the time.

Your premise is wrong. They wouldn’t miss their first year of college - it wouldn’t be their first year of college.

And an exam later in the year for those not happy with a predicted grade is NOT the same as the exam in July/August as you suggest it is. It is an alternative. It gives students an option; it is flexible.

Predicted grades are not meant to be infallible, teachers never have 100% confidence in them, hence the fact that they are predicted. No one is asking, nor would expect, 100% confidence.

So what? I got a D in my Art mock and a B1 in the LC and C1 in my History mock and an A1 in the LC. What do they have to do with anything? The nature of a mock exam is that you improve from them. No one is suggesting that they are indicative of a student’s performance, and I don’t think anyone would ever say that they are.

Imagine describing a pandemic that has infected over 1.5 million people as a curveball...

randylonghorn

mdudy wrote: »

This is just false. Say what you want about them but unconditional offers exist.

Well, I never heard of such and I have a few friends teaching in the UK.

That said, I'm not one to claim to know everything.

If they do, I would be very suspicious of their motives (in normal circumstances).

A ploy to increase student recruitment numbers perhaps? Many students would choose one university over another if they had an unconditional offer.

mdudy

History Queen wrote: »

One problem with predicted grades is accountability, I'm a teacher, if I give say a predicted grade of H5 based on tests so far/homework/whatever parameters and a student wants to appeal it how does that work? What if the student claima I'm biased and uses example of 20 Vsware notes I have given said student as evidence? Other teachers haven't given this student any where near as many notes therefore I must be biased and giving them a poor predicted grade out of spite. Now as the teacher I'd argue that I'm consistant in my approach and every note was warrented and went undisputed at the time. Who decides which view is correct? How does a teacher and indeed a student ensure fairness?

Second issue, comparisons to the UK system. Students there KNOW that there is a predicted grade system in place and it is a well established system every year used to offer preliminary places pending eventual results. Students know how important these preliminary grades are and work towards them. Applying it retrospectively is grossly unfair as neither students nor teachers were operating with the intention of mocks/class tests etc being used for this purpose.

I acknowledge the first concern. I do not think teachers should be accountable for predicted grades - given the extraordinary circumstances. If students are unhappy, they should have the option of sitting an exam, not recourse via an appeal of a particular predicted grade or a claim of bias.

Again, the notion that students work towards predicted grades is false. The majority do, but unconditional offers exist, despite recent clampdowns.

mdudy

randylonghorn wrote: »

Well, I never heard of such and I have a few friends teaching in the UK.

That said, I'm not one to claim to know everything.

If they do, I would be very suspicious of their motives (in normal circumstances).

A ploy to increase student recruitment numbers perhaps? Many students would choose one university over another if they had an unconditional offer.

And I have friends teaching in Kuwait. Doesn’t mean I know anything about their education system.

In 2019 they accounted for 25% of offers. Shall I introduce you to Google?

randylonghorn

mdudy wrote: »

And I have friends teaching in Kuwait. Doesn’t mean I know anything about their education system.

Except I have been listening to them fulminate about Johnson's decision for the last week, and not once did they mention that unconditional offers based on predictive grades were already common.

mdudy wrote: »

Shall I introduce you to Google?

Oh, wow!

Nvm, I'm out of this conversation as far as you're concerned.

History Queen

mdudy wrote: »

I acknowledge the first concern. I do not think teachers should be accountable for predicted grades - given the extraordinary circumstances. If students are unhappy, they should have the option of sitting an exam, not recourse via an appeal of a particular predicted grade or a claim of bias.

Again, the notion that students work towards predicted grades is false. The majority do, but unconditional offers exist, despite recent clampdowns.

Well in fairness by that logic you can also say somestudents here don't work towards their LC because some don't need it for their next step.

But anyway, what I meant by that is every student in the UK system (not sure actually that it is all of the UK is Scotland slightly different?) is fully aware of the use of predictive grades before they do any work that will be used in the prediction of said grade.

rainbowtrout

mdudy wrote: »

Your premise is wrong. They wouldn’t miss their first year of college - it wouldn’t be their first year of college.

And an exam later in the year for those not happy with a predicted grade is NOT the same as the exam in July/August as you suggest it is. It is an alternative. It gives students an option; it is flexible.

Predicted grades are not meant to be infallible, teachers never have 100% confidence in them, hence the fact that they are predicted. No one is asking, nor would expect, 100% confidence.

So what? I got a D in my Art mock and a B1 in the LC and C1 in my History mock and an A1 in the LC. What do they have to do with anything? The nature of a mock exam is that you improve from them. No one is suggesting that they are indicative of a student’s performance, and I don’t think anyone would ever say that they are.

Imagine describing a pandemic that has infected over 1.5 million people as a curveball...

With our appeal system, a student can appeal, have their paper re-marked and if they are successful and it makes a change to their points which would generate a new college offer, they can accept that offer and go and do that course in this academic year. So yes they can do first year in college this year if they are successful. What you are proposing with an alternative exam in winter means that this would not be an option for them.

You've just said yourself predicted grades are not meant to be infallible. Then why would we use them? Any student who doesn't get what they want would not be happy with the outcome.

Based on the grades you said you got in your mocks and LC exam, if you were a LC today, you could have been given vastly different grades if they were on a predicted basis which could have had a material difference on what you did after the LC.

And my comment was in no way belittling the situation with the pandemic. These students will be thrown into all sorts of situations later in life and they will have disappointments, and plans will fall through and change and things won't work out as they had expected. The fallout of the Leaving Cert is one of those things. Some will take it on the chin, knuckle down in June and see it as an opportunity to get an extra month of work done to try and improve their grade, and some will take it as an opportunity to complain constantly about how their summer is ruined.

mdudy

History Queen wrote: »

Well in fairness by that logic you can also say somestudents here don't work towards their LC because some don't need it for their next step.

But anyway, what I meant by that is every student in the UK system (not sure actually that it is all of the UK is Scotland slightly different?) is fully aware of the use of predictive grades before they do any work that will be used in the prediction of said grade.

That’s a weird way to extend that logic and it’s not exactly relevant to the discussion nor my point.

Yes, I accept that point, to an extent. However, I don’t think there is much difference between a student working towards their A Levels, with knowledge of predicated grades, and a student working towards their LC, with none: they are both working towards final state exams and, generally, being assessed as they go. I get that UK students may work harder during the year for better predicted grades, but we will not get a perfect solution that suits everyone.

I’m unsure how one would surmount it to be honest, apart from with what I’ve previously suggested, acknowledging that that not exactly solves the issue, but gives students a ‘second’ chance, if wanted.

mdudy

rainbowtrout wrote: »

With our appeal system, a student can appeal, have their paper re-marked and if they are successful and it makes a change to their points which would generate a new college offer, they can accept that offer and go and do that course in this academic year. So yes they can do first year in college this year if they are successful. What you are proposing with an alternative exam in winter means that this would not be an option for them.

You've just said yourself predicted grades are not meant to be infallible. Then why would we use them? Any student who doesn't get what they want would not be happy with the outcome.

Based on the grades you said you got in your mocks and LC exam, if you were a LC today, you could have been given vastly different grades if they were on a predicted basis which could have had a material difference on what you did after the LC.

And my comment was in no way belittling the situation with the pandemic. These students will be thrown into all sorts of situations later in life and they will have disappointments, and plans will fall through and change and things won't work out as they had expected. The fallout of the Leaving Cert is one of those things. Some will take it on the chin, knuckle down in June and see it as an opportunity to get an extra month of work done to try and improve their grade, and some will take it as an opportunity to complain constantly about how their summer is ruined.

I think it has to be recognised that this year can not be worked out like previous years, and nor should it be.

Yes, it wouldn’t be an option for them. That’s exactly what I mean. Students with offers from U.K. institutions are being told they may have to defer if the LC is held that late in Summer (I’m dubious to this as they may need numbers next year but, nonetheless, that’s what students have been told).

Exactly, any student not happy will have the opportunity to take an exam, sometime later. The point is for an easy solution to get people moved on.

I would doubt that teachers would base predicted grades on mock results as we all know what they’re like. But no, I would have decided not to do the LC this year and go to a grinds school next year. Which illustrates my point: this policy will disproportionately affect those from lower socioeconomic backgrounds. It is purposefully cruel.

Your last paragraph belies a horrible attitude to be honest. It presupposes people can just work at home easily, never mind the fact that there’s a pandemic, and they have access to a study space, etc. Have you tried studying at the minute? I have and I’m a long way past the LC: it is nigh on impossible and my institution have implanted very welcome mitigation measures to acknowledge this and, in their words ‘It is the right thing to do’. These are not ordinary circumstances and the sooner the DofE and people like you recognise that the better.

rainbowtrout

mdudy wrote: »

Your last paragraph belies a horrible attitude to be honest. It presupposes people can just work at home easily, never mind the fact that there’s a pandemic, and they have access to a study space, etc. Have you tried studying at the minute? I have and I’m a long way past the LC: it is nigh on impossible and my institution have implanted very welcome mitigation measures to acknowledge this and, in their words ‘It is the right thing to do’. These are not ordinary circumstances and the sooner the DofE and people like you recognise that the better.

Actually I haven't presupposed anything. I am aware of the differing situations of my students as it stands, and not just those in Leaving Cert. Teachers for the most part will do what they can to support their students. There is no perfect solution to the situation, but allowing the exams to run allows students to be graded fairly. The background from which they are coming may not be a level playing field at all, but there is very little we can do about that at the moment. Students are being given the opportunity to sit the exams and make the best of it, as that is all they can do. Some will use it to get the LC and move on to college, some will just want to get the exams done and out of the way and get a job, some might not sit it at all and choose to repeat next year.

You said yourself that if you were in this situation that you would repeat in a grinds schools, and that this disadvantages people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds. Well.... people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds have never had access to grind schools whether it be for this situation or any other Leaving Cert year. The advantage that you would have had was always available to you, so it's not fair to say that suddenly it only affect those who can't afford it this year. They could never afford it any year.

Repeating LC in their own school will still be an option for many students if they wish to do so.

mdudy

rainbowtrout wrote: »

You said yourself that if you were in this situation that you would repeat in a grinds schools, and that this disadvantages people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds. Well.... people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds have never had access to grind schools whether it be for this situation or any other Leaving Cert year. The advantage that you would have had was always available to you, so it's not fair to say that suddenly it only affect those who can't afford it this year. They could never afford it any year.

It is fair to say that; that’s why I said disproportionately. We’re not going to agree, that’s alright.

Regardless, do you honestly think they can feasibly hold the LC in the Summer?

rainbowtrout

mdudy wrote: »

Regardless, do you honestly think they can feasibly hold the LC in the Summer?

In a nutshell, yes.

Tristan_

Reading the Leaving Cert subreddit atm is a... surreal experience. Curses and death threats left and right towards Joe and Leo. The latter of which is currently covering medical shifts while running the country and providing as much information as he can about what's going on. Beyond shocked at the immaturity of so many of my contemporaries. More depressing than shocking actually.

randylonghorn

Tristan_ wrote: »

Reading the Leaving Cert subreddit atm is a... surreal experience. Curses and death threats left and right towards Joe and Leo.

I can imagine, I was on modding duty the night of Englishgate (2009) and that was only one English paper!

You might be as well just switching it (and all thoughts of LC) off for a few days, Tris.

It IS Easter break after all, though it doesn't feel like it!

Forget about it for a few days, get some exercise, relax.

c_f_p99

Look, I was a bit mad with the decision at first (I'm in 6th year too), particularly because they had implemented a system of estimated grades in private last year to hundreds of students. The worst part of the LC is the sheer endurance of it. It's not that difficult, but considering the lack of support now, I'm finding it difficult to know whether or not I really understand the stuff or whether I am prepared or not.

But, I knew that this was going to happen. If you think of it in a positive light, summer holidays will only be deferred to a time when the Covid restrictions are lifted. I just don't know how I'd cope with three more months of this.

The big problem is for people applying abroad (thank god I amn't one of them). I do believe that predicted grades are the better solution as they have been implemented before, but it's not really the worst choice, now that I'm thinking about it. I'll have to deal with much worse sh*t in the future, especially when I enter the job market.

Purefrank128

c_f_p99 wrote: »

I do believe that predicted grades are the better solution as they have been implemented before

Predicted grades have NOT been implemented before by the SEC. What you are talking about are called "assessed grades". These are for the small number of students who have had their work lost or have been similarly disadvantaged. The assessed grade is determined by the SEC having consulted the school and looked at the final LC results of the other students from that school - the ones the school thinks are close in ability to the student who has been disadvantaged. It could not work for a situation where no-one has done the LC.

c_f_p99

Purefrank128 wrote: »

Predicted grades have NOT been implemented before by the SEC. What you are talking about are called "assessed grades". These are for the small number of students who have had their work lost or have been similarly disadvantaged. The assessed grade is determined by the SEC having consulted the school and looked at the final LC results of the other students from that school - the ones the school thinks are close in ability to the student who has been disadvantaged. It could not work for a situation where no-one has done the LC.

Well, okay, they haven't been properly implemented. But I guess what I'm trying to say is that it can be done, it'd just be very costly and time-consuming. I didn't really investigate that incident thoroughly, sorry about that.

Yes, I do think students are overreacting, but to be fair, I cherish summer holidays and having to do intensive work during them is a bit of a nightmare, worse than doing a load of internships and job applications even (or so I can imagine). It's one of those things that a lot of students are not used to (like I remember when I first went to secondary school,the idea of doing homework over the weekend frightened me).

But after thinking about it, people calm down and realise that it's just something that has to be done. It does provide greater certainty than any other alternative. But my god, I really don't want to repeat.

Purefrank128

c_f_p99 wrote: »

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it can be done, it'd just be very costly and time-consuming.

I have no idea if it (predicted grades) would be costly or time-consuming, but I think it would be a lot cheaper and faster than running and marking the LC. What it would be, however, is an extremely inaccurate way of capturing students' abilities, and that's the problem.

<snip trollish remark>

c_f_p99

Purefrank128 wrote: »

I have no idea if it (predicted grades) would be costly or time-consuming, but I think it would be a lot cheaper and faster than running and marking the LC. What it would be, however, is an extremely inaccurate way of capturing students' abilities, and that's the problem.

.

It's fine really. I'm more sick of the LC than anything. The marking process is highly questionable though, especially for certain subjects like Economics (or any Business subject really). Those marking schemes are very vague and don't tell you how something is marked (even for the maths questions). The marking can be highly unfair at times and expect you to do things that are not asked in the questions themselves. They alter their definitions from one year to he next and sometimes, I (and many other students) don't know what they want in these definitions. It's just a means of bringing up or down the grades, which is pathetic really. 5 months ago, I remember reading an article in the Irish Times criticising this method and I'm not surprised about that at all (around the same time the estimated grades were revealed).

But overall, yes, it is much fairer than predicted grades and certainly fairer than the systems in many other countries. I just wish that the methods used for standardizing the grades different (such as changing the marks needed to get a certain grade while keeping marking schemes uniform and consistent) as our one is very unfair.

Purefrank128

c_f_p99 wrote: »

But overall, yes, it is much fairer than predicted grades and certainly fairer than the systems in many other countries. I just wish that the methods used for standardizing the grades different (such as changing the marks needed to get a certain grade while keeping marking schemes uniform and consistent) as our one is very unfair.

Agreed.