Picard 1x09 - "Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

pah

If we're going all in with the sports analogy then Star Trek is my favourite team. (All thoughts hereafter entirely subjective)

My team had a really good run in the 90's overall competing regularly for the top four, winning some competitions and occasionally blowing other teams away with a legendary performance here and there.

There was some poor form at times where they started slowly, had some good performances but also disappointed at times until finally they were relegated for years and years.

3 years ago they came back up and had a decent season although they didn't win any awards worth talking about. Many people including myself felt they were playing an ugly game. The following year with some decent transfers in they did a little better although I would have given a few red cards for certain incidents if I'd been the Ref :P "I like science"

For me, Picard has yet to register an impressive 3 point win on the road. My team is struggling to pick up 1 point for a dodgy home draw but I will sit down every week and I will watch and support my team because this is something that I am passionate about.

I may then go online and critique it because I am not happy with the performance. I want like minded people to agree with me and I want people with differing opinions to rebut what I have said and give their own opinions.

I'm getting really fed up of the idea of "Don't like - Don't watch" I can't do that, I am too invested as a fan.

I don't think there are many posts in the soccer forum in say, a Man Utd thread telling people who are complaining about the teams performance to stop watching them play if they don't like what they see??

AllForIt

Rawr wrote: »

I suppose the main jist of my complaint is that they just plonked the cube onto the ground with very little disturbance to the surrounding environment. It is just resting flat on the ground by some water as if it was some kind of Minecraft biome.

Of course a large Cube could potentially crash head-on like that, but it is visually quite lazy looking. They could have it at an angle, half sunk into the ground, or smashed partially into a mountainside. The way they've done it kind of makes it apparent that the Cube is supposed to fly again. No doubt within the "Kitchen sink" plot-resolving battle that I fear this show will end with.

Actually I take what I said back on reflection. When Picard entered the cube the ship controls were the right way up in respect of land gravity i.e they weren't hanging from the roof. This of course doesn't matter in space because of fake gravity and there is no up in space.

pah

I did wonder during the episode where the lightning storms were :rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/FourHosts/status/1242248217514766336

pixelburp

That sound you hear right now is a mic being dropped

Had completely forgotten about that, though TOS always seems like the show some fans like to pick & choose their canon from. When it suits

Evade

That's a (half) Vulcan performing a mind meld not an android learning how to do it by reading a book.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

That's a (half) Vulcan performing a mind meld not an android learning how to do it by reading a book.

Pffh. Because that's an important difference? Why would a mind-meld work on anything non-organic at all? And she didn't just "read a book", the episode made it clear enough alt-Soji had studied Vulcan culture obsessively; not like she pulled a Short Circuit and sped-read a how-to.

To be fair, acknolweding canon on TOS is tricky at the best of times, given it means we must admit that there's a Planet of Nazis, or Planet of Chicago Gangsters out there.

Rawr

pixelburp wrote: »

not like she pulled a Short Circuit and sped-read a how-to.

Now thanks to you, I'm imagining alt-Soji running around the planet looking for books while speaking with the voice of Johnny Five.

Soong Jr: Soji, what the hell happened in the library? The books are all over the place!

Soji: Innnnpuuut! I need INNNNPUUT!!!

Soong Jr: Dammit Soji, enough of this nonsense, I'm an old man.

Soji: Old man, walking fossil, ancient geezer!!

Soong Jr: You know what fine. There's more input over on that nearby Starfleet ship. Go and see if they're still feeling murder-y.

Soji: Innnnpuuut!

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

Pffh. Because that's an important difference?

There's almost certainly a biological component to it. You could argue these new androids have that built into them and if Soong had said that it'd be more acceptable but he said she studied it implying anyone could do it when up to now it's exclusively been a Vulcan thing.

pixelburp wrote: »

To be fair, acknolweding canon on TOS is tricky at the best of times, given it means we must admit that there's a Planet of Nazis, or Planet of Chicago Gangsters out there.

It is. and there's even an explanation in canon for it where in the 24th century some of the TOS era logs are looked at a little skeptically. I'd find a Youtube video of the line but I don't want to be accused of putting too much effort into a forum post.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

There's almost certainly a biological component to it. You could argue these new androids have that built into them and if Soong had said that it'd be more acceptable but he said she studied it implying anyone could do it when up to now it's exclusively been a Vulcan thing.

Telepathy exists in this universe, so unless there's some specificity to Vulcan physiology that marks them out as being the only ones capable (though I'm sure we've had other episodes with Telepathy involved), I don't see it as impossible - or too much of a creative leap - to speculate the synapses of Androids are suited of the kind of connections required for telepathic reading. They're supposed to be intellectually advanced beings, so seems reasonable they & Vulcans would both be suited.

If you can mind-meld robotic probes - or humpback whales - there's obviously a ragged edge of how far the telepathy can go. The mind melds have always been the more overt, openly Fantasy element of Trek and TBH wouldn't blink if they just consigned them to the canon bin. Can Romulans mind meld?

Evade wrote: »

It is. and there's even an explanation in canon for it where in the 24th century some of the TOS era logs are looked at a little skeptically. I'd find a Youtube video of the line but I don't want to be accused of putting too much effort into a forum post.

So what you're saying is that with a little creative thinking, even the daftest parts of canon can be explained? So why not "advanced androids, with practice, can mind meld"?

Stark

pixelburp wrote: »

If you can mind-meld robotic probes - or humpback whales - there's obviously a ragged edge of how far the telepathy can go. The mind melds have always been the more overt, openly Fantasy element of Trek and TBH wouldn't blink if they just consigned them to the canon bin. Can Romulans mind meld?

I'd imagine one could be taught to given they are biological cousins of Vulcans. I think to keep within the spirit of the canon somewhat though, having to spend a few years adopting the teachings of Surak should be a pre-requisite.

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

Telepathy exists in this universe, so unless there's some specificity to Vulcan physiology that marks them out as being the only ones capable (though I'm sure we've had other episodes with Telepathy involved), I don't see it as impossible - or too much of a creative leap - to speculate the synapses of Androids are suited of the kind of connections required for telepathic reading. They're supposed to be intellectually advanced beings, so seems reasonable they & Vulcans would both be suited.

Different races have different abilities. A Vulcan using Betazoid style telepathy would be just as out of place even though they're both telepathic races.

pixelburp wrote: »

If you can mind-meld robotic probes - or humpback whales - there's obviously a ragged edge of how far the telepathy can go. The mind melds have always been the more overt, openly Fantasy element of Trek and TBH wouldn't blink if they just consigned them to the canon bin. Can Romulans mind meld?

There was an effort to reign it in but now it's kind of been reversed. Romulans would be likely candidates but they do have some differences, they don't pon farr as far as we know.

pixelburp wrote: »

So what you're saying is that with a little creative thinking, even the daftest parts of canon can be explained? So why not "advanced androids, with practice, can mind meld"?

There's a difference between trying to clear up a daft idea from the 60s and creating new ones. What they've done now is make Androids a perfect race. Not only have they removed the old limitations but now with some practice they can emulate unique characteristics from other races.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

There's a difference between trying to clear up a daft idea from the 60s and creating new ones. What they've done now is make Androids a perfect race. Not only have they removed the old limitations but now with some practice they can emulate unique characteristics from other races.

I just think we're quibbling over degrees again though; Mind Melds aren't strictly defined, and it's not that much of a cognitive leap to imagine an Android conducting one, especially one whose apparent emotional or intellectual range seems much advanced from (say) Data and has studied the practise. Like I said, not like a random Mars worker bot picked up a book and sped read. And no less a leap than Spock melding with a robotic probe (wasn't that a precursor V'ger style device?)

Honestly, I'd be more perturbed by a human performing a mind-meld, than an android. Vulcans and Androids feel ... ... thematically similar enough as it stands.

pah

pah wrote: »

An Android that has taught herself the Vulcan mind meld????? this show needs to fuçk right off :mad:

I had forgotten about spocks mindmeld with the probe in TOS and V'ger in TMP. Most of my trek lore comes from TNG & afterwards.

On reflection I think I was more annoyed that it was so convenient to have a positronic brain that could mind meld and make sense of the gibberish messages that could not otherwise have been explained. This added to the previous episode where Rios just happened to be the one who had previously met the other Alt_soji Android (Janna?)

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

I just think we're quibbling over degrees again though; Mind Melds aren't strictly defined, and it's not that much of a cognitive leap to imagine an Android conducting one, especially one whose apparent emotional or intellectual range seems much advanced from (say) Data and has studied the practise. Like I said, not like a random Mars worker bot picked up a book and sped read. And no less a leap than Spock melding with a robotic probe (wasn't that a precursor V'ger style device?)

The only real rule was it required a Vulcan now there are no rules.

pixelburp wrote: »

Honestly, I'd be more perturbed by a human performing a mind-meld, than an android. Vulcans and Androids feel ... ... thematically similar enough as it stands.

Breaking established rules to fit a theme is just lazy. There's no reason a human with enough discipline can't do it now because they've removed any biological component. Unless of course this gets Holdo-manuevered in the next episode or season in that she did have some Vulcan parts and that allowed here to do it.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

The only real rule was it required a Vulcan now there are no rules.

Well there's our point of disagreement and deviation: there were no "rules" to begin with, just an informal racial trope that was happily broken - albeit from the POV of viable mind-meld targets - whenever previous writers decided it was OK. Be they robotic probes, whales or whatever. The Vulcans function as weird ostensible Space Mages anyway, between the telepathy, storing entire consciousnesses in others' bodies etc. The race, TBH, is boll*cks at the best of times.

It does minimal harm to cannon to suggest given a suitably able and complex artificial mind, it could recreate the prerequisites that allow for telepathy. Just having emotive, intellectual androids is a pretty huge leap, even past Data. It suits the plot to suggest their superiority extends beyond the generic "faster, smarter, stronger" cliché.

IMO canon remains intact, the Space Magic merely has its adherents to include ostensible super-beings / Cosmopolitan cover models.

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

Well there's our point of disagreement and deviation: there were no "rules" to begin with, just an informal racial trope that was happily broken

When else has there been a mind meld that didn't involve a Vulcan?

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

When else has there been a mind meld that didn't involve a Vulcan?

Nothing exists in canon, until it does. Spock emoted, until he didn't. There were never emotive capable androids until there were (let's ignore Harry Mudd). Klingons looked in such a way, until they didn't. There were never any Borg, until there were. Never any Ferenghi, until there were (and were changed from hostile aggressors to scheming financiers at that). And so on.

You can't have the Singularity, with caveats, just to preserve canon that's barely concrete at the best of times.

The main thing is why do you think that androids can only copy Human senses and not those of other races?

The Megaphone

Next it will be okay to warp ships into Borg cubes as a last resort!

If they wanted to go down the android mind meld route, the least they could have done is create an android modeled on a Vulcan - it would have helped IMO!

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

Nothing exists in canon, until it does. Spock emoted, until he didn't. There were never emotive capable androids until there were (let's ignore Harry Mudd). Klingons looked in such a way, until they didn't. There were never any Borg, until there were. Never any Ferenghi, until there were (and were changed from hostile aggressors to scheming financiers at that). And so on.

You can't have the Singularity, with caveats, just to preserve canon that's barely concrete at the best of times.

That just excuses lazy deus ex machinas. And I don's see any reason why androids undergoing the singularity can't mind meld, or use any telepathy, in the same way most races can't.

Deleted User wrote: »

The main thing is why do you think that androids can only copy Human senses and not those of other races?

Mostly because those sense have already been emulated by technology in Star Trek. I'd be more accepting of it if they had already emulated the process with other technology. Some Romulan interrogation technology comes close but the equipment was bulky and it wasn't nearly as effective.

This isn't specifically a mind meld issue it's more the power creep of the androids now, if they could shroud all of a sudden it would be just as jarring. As it stands now they're essentially perfect. If they declared themselves the Ubermensch in episode 10 it would be hard to argue with them.

pixelburp

Going to agree to disagree at this point. Doesn't feel like the huge canonical grenade you think it is Evade, but we've thrashed it out enough at this stage.

Bobtheman

I haven't seen this yet but I don't care about spoilers. I knew Brent would make a fuller appearance. So lay it on me - how is he ' back '?

Evade

Soong's never mentioned before biological son.

Bobtheman

Yeah a bit of a soap thing- dragging up a long lost son.
And what harm ? Canon is not from God.

corkie

Soong Jr Is Lore

| All Evidence >>> YouTube
^^^ Bamalam ~~~~ Some dude with weird fuzzy hairdo!

AllForIt

To me mind melding was a natural *ability of the Vulcan species in the same way birds can fly but humans can't fly or train themselves to fly. We can figure out a way to fly but is never the same as a bird flying i.e without mechanical assistance.

Thus a synth may be able to figure out a way to read one's though's in some workaround way to achieve the same effect but not done in the same way as an original Vulcan. Then again if they are biological then maybe they have that Vulcan 'gene' that enables them to mild meld in the exact same way a Vulcan does but you'd think it would have to be designed in from the beginning rather than something that can be 'learned' later on.




*like that thing Spock used to do to knock ppl unconscious with fingers on back of neck.

AMKC

The Megaphone wrote: »

Next it will be okay to warp ships into Borg cubes as a last resort!

If they wanted to go down the android mind meld route, the least they could have done is create an android modeled on a Vulcan - it would have helped IMO!

Next it will be okay to warp ships into Borg cubes as a last resort!

Sure it nearly happened in First Contact just not at warp speed.

Just make sure the ship,is unmanned or with only the bare minimum and sure be grand.

I would say even a Galaxy class ship warping into a Cube would not fully destroy it anyway unless its shields were down which is highly unlikely.

The Megaphone

AMKC wrote: »

Sure it nearly happened in First Contact just not at warp speed.

Worf was going with ramming speed that time!

But the point I was making is that there are established rules in the Star Trek Universe (if only i had a euro for every time a starship dropped to impulse due to their warp field collapsing); and the android mind meld doesn't sit well for me, although it's no where near as bad as Discovery's Spore Drive!!

Stark

AMKC wrote: »

Next it will be okay to warp ships into Borg cubes as a last resort!

Sure it nearly happened in First Contact just not at warp speed.

Just make sure the ship,is unmanned or with only the bare minimum and sure be grand.

Also in Best of both worlds where Riker ordered it as a last resort measure just before Data managed to implant the sleep order.

AMKC

The Megaphone wrote: »

Worf was going with ramming speed that time!

But the point I was making is that there are established rules in the Star Trek Universe (if only i had a euro for every time a starship dropped to impulse due to their warp field collapsing); and the android mind meld doesn't sit well for me, although it's no where near as bad as Discovery's Spore Drive!!

The spore drive I agree there was no need for and I hate it. I especially hated how the ship spins every time it done it just stupid. The mind meld in this do I am ok with.

pah

AllForIt wrote: »

*like that thing Spock used to do to knock ppl unconscious with fingers on back of neck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yxgLMHjGoE

T'pol also complimented Archer on his technique during Enterprise although Archer had been carrying Suraks Katra at the time.

Nesta99

Without reading back the thread - anyone else think that cut scene to a Romulan Warbird looked almost exactly like a BSG Cylon raider, minus the red eyes?

Slydice

I did think the Romulan Warbirds looked awful small but I felt it made sense for a Empire that had gone through a massive decline.

Now that you mention it, yeah kinda something similar to that facemask look that the new BSG Cylon Raiders had. The wings a fair bit different.

AMKC

Nesta99 wrote: »

Without reading back the thread - anyone else think that cut scene to a Romulan Warbird looked almost exactly like a BSG Cylon raider, minus the red eyes?

Yes I did think that alright.

Rawr

AMKC wrote: »

Next it will be okay to warp ships into Borg cubes as a last resort!

Sure it nearly happened in First Contact just not at warp speed.

Just make sure the ship,is unmanned or with only the bare minimum and sure be grand.

I would say even a Galaxy class ship warping into a Cube would not fully destroy it anyway unless its shields were down which is highly unlikely.

A Galaxy Class going full warp core breech while slamming into a Cube would make for a huge antimatter explosion. True, that alone probably wouldn't kill a Cube, but would take a very large chunk out of it. Possibly disable it enough for a regular fleet of Starfleet vessels to finish the job.