Is it just me or have SF vanished?

blanch152

McMurphy wrote: »

Well that didn't answer the question I didn't ask you.

Let me help.

McMurphy wrote: »

Who else has commented on it from Irish politics?

Did FF make any statement on it?

Did the other Simon make his views known on it? You know the Simon in health?

Been looking online don't see anything from shinners in general about it, and I for sure ain't going through each and every one of their TDs social media platforms to check.

You made an accurate statement that having looked online you didn't see anything from shinners in general about it.

blanch152 wrote: »

Apart from some whinging, you would struggle to find anything of note being said by Sinn Fein at the moment.

The funniest was Louise O'Reilly complaining about uncosted programmes for government. It was like she hadn't realised that the world has changed with Covid-19.

I was in agreement with you and extended your analogy to point out that Sinn Fein weren't saying much about anything at all other than some whinging.

I am not sure why you are so upset at me agreeing with you.

Bishop of hope

Fionn1952 wrote: »

While pages like that referenced above are often the lowest common denominator of internet political discussion, filled with numpties who don't have the first clue what they're talking about, I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to point out that 2nd polling question is loaded as hell and wouldn't pass muster on any reasonably scientific public sentiment survey.

I'm not sure what the point of pointing that post out as, 'the pick of the bunch' is when you say the page is full of homophobic nonsense. I usually notice these types of pages are full of anti-EU rhetoric, almost exclusively posted by people who don't understand how the EU works, economic policy suggestions from people who don't understand basic economics.....and the worst you can point out is that someone is picking out some loaded questions from a survey for our state broadcaster?!

Doesent matter your opinion or the educational or non educational qualifications of the political bolox, he/she gets to have an opinion and a vote.
The vote of the I'll informed and uneducated and educated bolox is what elects the politician (who in most cases are self serving egotists) who happen to think they aren't boloxs, when in fact they are often the biggest boloxs of all.

Bishop of hope

FF and FG have put together an aspirational uncosted document with something for everyone as a guideline for political agreement in the hope of getting some other group, most likely the greens, to bite.
There are no clearly stated absolute musts included, everything depends on the economic state, is up for negotiation and might not ever be included in Govt policy.
And people are clamouring for this to be put together and get them into Govt as quickly as possible so we can "stabilise" the country.
If SF, or any party for that matter, produced this document as a manifesto prior to an election, they would be ridiculed to the last by te media.
But such is the Desperation of none SF supporters that they will accept virtually anything the other parties throw out to keep SF out.
There is definitely a flawed mentality in that.

Fionn1952

Bishop of hope wrote: »

Doesent matter your opinion or the educational or non educational qualifications of the political bolox, he/she gets to have an opinion and a vote.
The vote of the I'll informed and uneducated and educated bolox is what elects the politician (who in most cases are self serving egotists) who happen to think they aren't boloxs, when in fact they are often the biggest boloxs of all.

I'm aware how democracy works, and fully support the fact that everyone gets a vote.

It is entirely possible to fully support the right of every adult to have a vote, while despairing the fact that a significant number of people are easily swayed by low grade propaganda and nonsense on social media without applying a modicum of fact checking.

For one to accept that, 'the uneducated and ill informed boll*ckses' are responsible for electing the politicians we have, the majority of the voting public would need to be made up of, 'the uneducated and ill informed'. I don't believe that is the case. With all these types of thing, it seems to me that it's an overly loud, small minority.

If you're interpreting my post as anti-SF rhetoric, I'd suggest you're reading it too deeply. My post is a criticism of fixed, narrow interest political boards on social media and the low grade of discussion and factual content that such echo chambers create. Hell, I've been accused of being a, 'Shinnerbot' on here in the past despite them receiving a pretty low transfer position on my ballot during the most recent elections.

Mortelaro

It's a parameters paper,nothing else
It is not a costed programme for government and isn't meant to be
Those come later
I'd expect the greens will climb on board if their 7% pa emissions reduction target is agreed subject to it not harming sectors of the economy
I'd expect labour will stay out as will the soc dems because the SF blocking parties as part of their plan will want them to soak up the next protest vote

I'd not be surprised if labour and soc Dems merged during the 5 year opposition term

McMurphy

Mortelaro wrote: »

It's a parameters paper,nothing else
It is not a costed programme for government and isn't meant to be
Those come later
I'd expect the greens will climb on board if their 7% pa emissions reduction target is agreed subject to it not harming sectors of the economy
I'd expect labour will stay out as will the soc dems because the SF blocking parties as part of their plan will want them to soak up the next protest vote

I'd not be surprised if labour and soc Dems merged during the 5 year opposition term

I wouldn't be betting any money on the greens becoming a mudguard for FFG tbh, Eamon Ryan might not the the sharpest tool in the shed, but having brought the party back from the near ten years of political obscurity, surely he's not that stupid to risk it again just for a ministerial position - plus it's hardly a coincidence he has been the most vocal of all the TDs screaming for a national government of unity, IE one where they're equally culpable and no one becomes a scapegoat.

I still have an unsettled bet with Paddy Power, that the last election would result in a FF minority one, it's as good as lost at this stage as it's next to impossible.

I still think it'll be back to the polls as the greens/labour and the SocDems won't be stupid enough to become FFG Patsy's, or a National government until the pandemic passes.

Michaél might be on the cusp of making history alright, but it won't be the one he is hoping for.

Leo and his own cynical power grab will have to wait for another once in a lifetime health pandemic to come around again.

Mortelaro

I'm not betting on the greens, I'm expecting

McMurphy

Mortelaro wrote: »

I'm not betting on the greens, I'm expecting

I'm not betting on them either, but I hope your expectations aren't set too high.

You think Ryan is going to go from the loudest voice of advocating a national government to getting into bed with FF and FG?

I wouldn't be holding my breath if I were you.

Mortelaro

I think the Greens if given what they want don't care about future elections as much
They look for opportunities

McMurphy

Mortelaro wrote: »

I think the Greens if given what they want don't care about future elections as much
They look for opportunities

Well that's another way of looking at it I suppose, but personally I'll be genuinely surprised if he (Eamonn Ryan) does a huge 180 on his own insistence that it's a national government needed.

He even wrote a fairly lengthy article in the Irish times saying so.


Eamon Ryan: Why we need a national unity government

Recreating the traditional divide between government and opposition just now runs the risk of bringing division on how we deliver the many other emergency measures that will be needed. In ordinary times such divisions are the sign of a good democracy but these are not ordinary times. We have seen in recent weeks the public administrative system having to present sweeping measures, in timelines which scarcely allow for effective legislative scrutiny. More urgent decisions are going to be needed in the coming months and it makes sense in such circumstances to have a range of parties directly involved in the policymaking process.

The national government would bring together the best people from across the Dáil and involve all parties in the collective proposition of solutions to get us out of an inevitable economic downturn. We are suggesting cabinet ministries be allocated on a proportionate basis and it would be up to the parties to agree quickly in advance who takes on which portfolios. This cannot take long but it is the biggest obstacle to making a national government happen.

Would be a spectacular u-turn to go back on that imo.

Mortelaro

I'd say when he sees 10 or 11 Independents lined up,he will take his opportunity
If I had a penny for every time politicians fly one kite yet sail in a different boat,I'd be rich
They all do it
The more important thing to remember with greens is climate is everything
Poof pieces or who they join with does not matter
They go with SF only for the fact they haven't enough seats

ThunbergsAreGo

McMurphy wrote: »

Well that's another way of looking at it I suppose, but personally I'll be genuinely surprised if he (Eamonn Ryan) does a huge 180 on his own insistence that it's a national government needed.

He even wrote a fairly lengthy article in the Irish times saying so.


Eamon Ryan: Why we need a national unity government




Would be a spectacular u-turn to go back on that imo.

I struggle to understand the benefits of a national government apart from all can share equally in the blame.

Pure pettiness would likely see decisions taking longer then required, and vast differences in approaches depending on the party.

Also when would it end, immediately post COVID? who decides when this is?

More questions then answers for me

Ryan would jump at government (hes a realist, the Greens are never going to be a larger party so will always be a "mudguard"), but there is no way he gets it part his party, which seem determined not to govern and eith sink back into oblivion or shift to the left (the Greens arent really left or right)

McMurphy

Mortelaro wrote: »

I'd say when he sees 10 or 11 Independents lined up,he will take his opportunity
If I had a penny for every time politicians fly one kite yet sail in a different boat,I'd be rich
They all do it
The more important thing to remember with greens is climate is everything
Poof pieces or who they join with does not matter
They go with SF only for the fact they haven't enough seats

True enough I suppose.

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

I struggle to understand the benefits of a national government apart from all can share equally in the blame.

Pure pettiness would likely see decisions taking longer then required, and vast differences in approaches depending on the party.

Also when would it end, immediately post COVID? who decides when this is?

More questions then answers for me

Ryan would jump at government (hes a realist, the Greens are never going to be a larger party so will always be a "mudguard"), but there is no way he gets it part his party, which seem determined not to govern and eith sink back into oblivion or shift to the left (the Greens arent really left or right)

He suggests time frames in the article I linked to.

I still think it's a more realistic development than a FFG coalition that is only going to get off the ground of they get themselves a patsy.

Bishop of hope

Mortelaro wrote: »

It's a parameters paper,nothing else
It is not a costed programme for government and isn't meant to be
Those come later
I'd expect the greens will climb on board if their 7% pa emissions reduction target is agreed subject to it not harming sectors of the economy
I'd expect labour will stay out as will the soc dems because the SF blocking parties as part of their plan will want them to soak up the next protest vote

I'd not be surprised if labour and soc Dems merged during the 5 year opposition term

Oh I'm not arguing that about the paper, it is just an outline of expectations, but it is dillusional in its content, as very little of it will be achieved.
If only all parties could produce their aspirations and get people to vote on them without the need for costings to be scrutinised.
It's a scam, nothing more.

Mortelaro

Bishop of hope wrote: »

Oh I'm not arguing that about the paper, it is just an outline of expectations, but it is dillusional in its content, as very little of it will be achieved.
If only all parties could produce their aspirations and get people to vote on them without the need for costings to be scrutinised.
It's a scam, nothing more.

I don't think its designed to achieve anything other than be a scoping exercise to draw in other parties for talks on a programme for government
Theres no scam there at all ,to be fair,as
in that sense it has no specific aims except the carbon neutral one
The aims and the judgement on achievability would be in the programme

The block Sinn Féin part is very transparent and the only Avenue for them to overcome that
If they do in 5 years time,it will be because the new government messed up,in which case I'll have no pity for them
I'll just vote happily for the rising tide of Soc Dem and Labour
If they don't mess up,then SF are definitely today starting another decade of do nothing themselves

blanch152

McMurphy wrote: »

I wouldn't be betting any money on the greens becoming a mudguard for FFG tbh, Eamon Ryan might not the the sharpest tool in the shed, but having brought the party back from the near ten years of political obscurity, surely he's not that stupid to risk it again just for a ministerial position - plus it's hardly a coincidence he has been the most vocal of all the TDs screaming for a national government of unity, IE one where they're equally culpable and no one becomes a scapegoat.

I still have an unsettled bet with Paddy Power, that the last election would result in a FF minority one, it's as good as lost at this stage as it's next to impossible.

I still think it'll be back to the polls as the greens/labour and the SocDems won't be stupid enough to become FFG Patsy's, or a National government until the pandemic passes.

Michaél might be on the cusp of making history alright, but it won't be the one he is hoping for.

Leo and his own cynical power grab will have to wait for another once in a lifetime health pandemic to come around again.

You are looking at the Greens through a normal political lens. Along with Sinn Fein, they should be looked at differently.

Yes, the Greens were burned by FF before, but that doesn't mean they won't go into government with them again. If they go in, it will be with certain clear objectives in mind and with a focus on achieving those. Being in government is important to achieve the climate change agenda. Opposition does not hold much attraction for them. They want to really achieve change, and being in government is the only way that they can do that. With concrete amendments to the Programme, it is possible that the Greens can come on board, if FF and FG won't agree to that, then the Greens will walk away.

Sinn Fein are the polar opposite to the Greens. They also have a singular policy objective - agitate for a united Ireland, but they have no interest in government to achieve that. They realise that people won't vote for a united Ireland in isolation, that the party needs general popular support to make that push. Hence, they jump on every bandwagon, from anti-vaxxers to 5G causing coronavirus, to grab every populist vote. Being in opposition until the time is right is the only thing that interests them. Hence there was never any serious attempt to form a government this time out, as many of us have pointed out, despite the numbers allowing them to do so. They reduced themselves to whinging and crying about FF and FG. If they had been serious, they would have publicly asked MM what would it take to form a government with them, and demanded an answer. They didn't. They have no real interest in the welfare of the people, just in achieving an outdated political objective.

Edgware

Why dont political parties just decide on policies and never change them even if every other thing in the world is changing?

Mortelaro

Edgware wrote: »

Why dont political parties just decide on policies and never change them even if every other thing in the world is changing?

They do,in manifestos.
If they don't get a majority, they negotiate and compromise
Last party majority in Ireland was 1977

blanch152

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0417/1132082-covid19-coronavirus-northern-ireland/

"Earlier today, official statisticians confirmed that Northern Ireland's coronavirus death toll is around a third higher than previously reported."

The SF/DUP government's predilection for covering up bad news continues.

If that was down here, SF would be all over it like a bad rash.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0417/1132082-covid19-coronavirus-northern-ireland/

"Earlier today, official statisticians confirmed that Northern Ireland's coronavirus death toll is around a third higher than previously reported."

The SF/DUP government's predilection for covering up bad news continues.

If that was down here, SF would be all over it like a bad rash.

Funnily enough, I could've sworn that the independent quoted Tony Holohan in yesterday's or Wednesday's newspaper stating that our figure's here are also being under-reported, and not only did I not see SF all over it, I didn't hear a peep from anyone else on it either.

Edit, here it is.

Concern over prevalence of Covid-19 in nursing and care homes as health chief warns of hidden death tolls

The coronavirus crisis has caused a hidden death toll not reflected in the daily statistics, chief medical officer Dr Tony Holohan acknowledges.

People will not just have died from complications, but others, who were not infected, will have been victims of indirect deaths due to failure to go to A&E or receive critical treatment

.

Mind you, it seems you've changed your stance from a few hours ago.

blanch152 wrote: »

Apart from some whinging, you would struggle to find anything of note being said by Sinn Fein at the moment.

The funniest was Louise O'Reilly complaining about uncosted programmes for government. It was like she hadn't realised that the world has changed with Covid-19.

Back pedaling to get underway in 1.....2......

Mortelaro

Tbh,I do not think it's fair to Say SF are covering up NI coronovirus bad news
The lag in detail is a UK thing,they only count hospital deaths
It's only recently they've started to count nursing home deaths but separately
Irish stats have always included nursing homes
The RoI issue is on no data on home deaths
Sinn Féin attacking that is just for the sake of it as you have 2 months to register a death and if theres an inquest a lot longer to record a cause
It's no addition only noise

McMurphy

Mortelaro wrote: »

Tbh,I do not think it's fair to Say SF are covering up NI coronovirus bad news
The lag in detail is a UK thing,they only count hospital deaths
It's only recently they've started to count nursing home deaths but separately
Irish stats have always included nursing homes
The RoI issue is on no data on home deaths
Sinn Féin attacking that is just for the sake of it as you have 2 months to register a death and if theres an inquest a lot longer to record a cause
It's no addition only noise

I don't think they did attack it, did they?

Blanch (just minutes ago) suggested they would have been, (had something similar have happened here) has just been proven that his fantasist and obsessive nonsense as perb usual.

blanch152

McMurphy wrote: »

Funnily enough, I could've sworn that the independent quoted Tony Holohan in yesterday's or Wednesday's newspaper stating that our figure's here are also being under-reported, and not only did I not see SF all over it, I didn't hear a peep from anyone else on it either.

Edit, here it is.

Concern over prevalence of Covid-19 in nursing and care homes as health chief warns of hidden death tolls

.

Mind you, it seems you've changed your stance from a few hours ago.



Back pedaling to get underway in 1.....2......

Nope, as Mortelaro points out, the issues are different, the DUP/SF government is not publishing nursing home deaths, the Irish government are.

Of course there is no data on home deaths, there are none in any country.

Mortelaro wrote: »

Tbh,I do not think it's fair to Say SF are covering up NI coronovirus bad news
The lag in detail is a UK thing,they only count hospital deaths
It's only recently they've started to count nursing home deaths but separately
Irish stats have always included nursing homes
The RoI issue is on no data on home deaths
Sinn Féin attacking that is just for the sake of it as you have 2 months to register a death and if theres an inquest a lot longer to record a cause
It's no addition only noise

Fair enough, the SF/DUP government is unable to differentiate itself from the Boris Johnson government in Westminister in relation to statistics. My understanding was that each part of the UK was separately reporting on statistics which should have allowed the SF/DUP government to be upfront and comprehensive.

cadaliac

blanch152 wrote: »

.......


Fair enough, the SF/DUP government is unable to differentiate itself from the Boris Johnson government in Westminister in relation to statistics. My understanding was that each part of the UK was separately reporting on statistics which should have allowed the SF/DUP government to be upfront and comprehensive.

Why would they be any different to the mainland ? Seriously though, it would be like shooting yourself in the foot.
The fact that is right or wrong is not the issue here. It is being different in the reporting than Westminister - if it goes south, they are all in it together. As they can say they were following the lead of Westminister.
Its fairyland to think that they (SF/DUP) would be any different. As for "Upfront and comprehensive"? - I think you need to lie down, rest a bit.

threeball

blanch152 wrote: »

You are looking at the Greens through a normal political lens. Along with Sinn Fein, they should be looked at differently.

Yes, the Greens were burned by FF before, but that doesn't mean they won't go into government with them again. If they go in, it will be with certain clear objectives in mind and with a focus on achieving those. Being in government is important to achieve the climate change agenda. Opposition does not hold much attraction for them. They want to really achieve change, and being in government is the only way that they can do that. With concrete amendments to the Programme, it is possible that the Greens can come on board, if FF and FG won't agree to that, then the Greens will walk away.

Sinn Fein are the polar opposite to the Greens. They also have a singular policy objective - agitate for a united Ireland, but they have no interest in government to achieve that. They realise that people won't vote for a united Ireland in isolation, that the party needs general popular support to make that push. Hence, they jump on every bandwagon, from anti-vaxxers to 5G causing coronavirus, to grab every populist vote. Being in opposition until the time is right is the only thing that interests them. Hence there was never any serious attempt to form a government this time out, as many of us have pointed out, despite the numbers allowing them to do so. They reduced themselves to whinging and crying about FF and FG. If they had been serious, they would have publicly asked MM what would it take to form a government with them, and demanded an answer. They didn't. They have no real interest in the welfare of the people, just in achieving an outdated political objective.

Perfect time for the Greens to go in. This pandemic has shown what can be done if there is enough political will. They can also very clearly demonstrate the difference that even this short lockdown has had on CO2 levels. Polar ice fields at their highest level in a decade. An economy that needs a significant stimulus and green projects the best way to spend that stimulus. They will never get a better opportunity. As long as they leave the wolves and other hair brained plans behind they'll be ok.

Bishop of hope

threeball wrote: »

Perfect time for the Greens to go in. This pandemic has shown what can be done if there is enough political will. They can also very clearly demonstrate the difference that even this short lockdown has had on CO2 levels. Polar ice fields at their highest level in a decade. An economy that needs a significant stimulus and green projects the best way to spend that stimulus. They will never get a better opportunity. As long as they leave the wolves and other hair brained plans behind they'll be ok.

At least the carpooling communities will be off the agenda, now as for those window lettuce boxes, well they can still push that
Maybe keep the country in lockdown forever, its working very well too co2 wise.

blanch152

blanch152 wrote: »

You are looking at the Greens through a normal political lens. Along with Sinn Fein, they should be looked at differently.

Yes, the Greens were burned by FF before, but that doesn't mean they won't go into government with them again. If they go in, it will be with certain clear objectives in mind and with a focus on achieving those. Being in government is important to achieve the climate change agenda. Opposition does not hold much attraction for them. They want to really achieve change, and being in government is the only way that they can do that. With concrete amendments to the Programme, it is possible that the Greens can come on board, if FF and FG won't agree to that, then the Greens will walk away.

Sinn Fein are the polar opposite to the Greens. They also have a singular policy objective - agitate for a united Ireland, but they have no interest in government to achieve that. They realise that people won't vote for a united Ireland in isolation, that the party needs general popular support to make that push. Hence, they jump on every bandwagon, from anti-vaxxers to 5G causing coronavirus, to grab every populist vote. Being in opposition until the time is right is the only thing that interests them. Hence there was never any serious attempt to form a government this time out, as many of us have pointed out, despite the numbers allowing them to do so. They reduced themselves to whinging and crying about FF and FG. If they had been serious, they would have publicly asked MM what would it take to form a government with them, and demanded an answer. They didn't. They have no real interest in the welfare of the people, just in achieving an outdated political objective.

This is a truly excellent post tbh.

Both SF and the Greens are subject to internal pressures though. Both have voters who think they are left wing parties and who think being left wing should be a main part of their identity.

Suckit

Deleted User wrote: »

This is a truly excellent post tbh.

Both SF and the Greens are subject to internal pressures though. Both have voters who think they are left wing parties and who think being left wing should be a main part of their identity.

It's an absolute Bullsh*t post, as is yours.
It is an attempt on a forum of wooing the first likely party to back the FFG party.
I don't gaf if they do, but to call that very very crap post a 'truly excellent post' is like telling your kids you can make lego with muck.

Edgware

Politics is about power. If you can get it take it. Otherwise spend five years on the opposition bench widening your arse and whinging. We have a good few at that already.

blanch152

Suckit wrote: »

It's an absolute Bullsh*t post, as is yours.
It is an attempt on a forum of wooing the first likely party to back the FFG party.
I don't gaf if they do, but to call that very very crap post a 'truly excellent post' is like telling your kids you can make lego with muck.

That is a silly post. If you think that boards has any influence on a political party, you are living in a dream world, or you are signed up to a party in order to do that. If it is the latter, you are wasting your time, board’s doesn’t influence politics.