Is it just me or have SF vanished?

n97 mini

atticu wrote: »

I would love to know.

I have not read anything in the papers about their progress.

The people voted for change, SF now need to deliver on their campaign promise.

Some people.

FrancieBrady

Redgirl82 wrote: »

Did I ask about other people manifesto's? Sinn Fein thread. Thanks

SF's is included in that.
If you are choosing party based on manifesto's, you get what you deserve.
It's 'sales' talk for the naïve.

Redgirl82

FrancieBrady wrote: »

SF's is included in that.
If you are choosing party based on manifesto's, you get what you deserve.
It's 'sales' talk for the naïve.

So you agree the Sinn Fein manifesto wasn't worth the paper it was written on?

FrancieBrady

Redgirl82 wrote: »

So you agree the Sinn Fein manifesto wasn't worth the paper it was written on?

None of are.
Labour's was the only one that was close to credible according to the Dept of Finance.
That says a lot about how we do politics.
If you want to con yourself go right ahead.

jm08

Redgirl82 wrote: »

But the housing section in the Sinn Fein manifesto is not achievable, this was pointed out by plenty of people. So why would you vote for something which wasn't worth the paper it was written on?

When you say 100,000 is not achievable. Is the 50,000 that FG promise achievable?


I think that the County Councils have to start building more houses like in the past and the rent/sale money from these houses reinvested in housing.


FG & FF's policy isn't delivering sustainable housing into the future.

James Brown

Redgirl82 wrote: »

But the housing section in the Sinn Fein manifesto is not achievable, this was pointed out by plenty of people. So why would you vote for something which wasn't worth the paper it was written on?

Says you. I didn't vote for their manifesto. Hadn't read it. Still haven't. Housing is a massive issue and I like what they and others intend to try to accomplish.
You talk in absolutes. If it's partially achievable or even if it isn't at all, I like building more social and affordable over pandering to vulture funds. Some headway in the right direction is better than continuing in the wrong direction.
I don't know how much is achievable but the direction is sound IMO.
I'd go so far as to say if the current, (pre pandemic) policies were halted and of government did nothing, it would be an improvement on making matters worse year on year.
Where do you stand? Do you feel record breaking crises year on year is something we need to keep?
Other parties are for reference as they compare to each other in relation to SF of course.

Redgirl82

FrancieBrady wrote: »

None of are.
Labour's was the only one that was close to credible according to the Dept of Finance.
That says a lot about how we do politics.
If you want to con yourself go right ahead.

jm08 wrote: »

When you say 100,000 is not achievable. Is the 50,000 that FG promise achievable?


I think that the County Councils have to start building more houses like in the past and the rent/sale money from these houses reinvested in housing.


FG & FF's policy isn't delivering sustainable housing into the future.

Do I have to mention again this is the Sinn Fein thread...

FrancieBrady

Redgirl82 wrote: »

Do I have to mention again this is the Sinn Fein thread, want to discuss Labour maybe discuss it on the Labour thread.

Report the post if you have a problem.

Otherwise you are wasting pixels and your time. I will mention any party I like if it is part if a point I am making.

Redgirl82

Bowie wrote: »

Says you. I didn't vote for their manifesto. Hadn't read it. Still haven't. Housing is a massive issue and I like what they and others intend to try to accomplish.
You talk in absolutes. If it's partially achievable or even if it isn't at all, I like building more social and affordable over pandering to vulture funds. Some headway in the right direction is better than continuing in the wrong direction.
I don't know how much is achievable but the direction is sound IMO.
I'd go so far as to say if the current, (pre pandemic) policies were halted and of government did nothing, it would be an improvement on making matters worse year on year.
Where do you stand? Do you feel record breaking crises year on year is something we need to keep?
Other parties are for reference as they compare to each other in relation to SF of course.

You said you voted for Sinn Fein based on housing but you have no idea what the housing policy is they have?

Great to see the people of Ireland have such consideration for the privileged that many Irish died to get them

Personally, well first off I would go after all the people sitting in council houses not paying rent. Would you not think that is a good policy? free up millions to build more houses

FrancieBrady

Redgirl82 wrote: »

Great to see the people of Ireland have such consideration for the privileged that many Irish died to get them

Somebody died for glossy sales brouchures and auction politics?

jm08

Redgirl82 wrote: »

Do I have to mention again this is the Sinn Fein thread...

I only want to make the point that I think there needs to be a change in direction of housing policy back to the State/Co Council directly involved in building and providing social housing.

Redgirl82

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Somebody died for glossy sales brouchures and auction politics?

The adults are talking now.

jm08

Redgirl82 wrote: »

Personally, well first off I would go after all the people sitting in council houses not paying rent. Would you not think that is a good policy? free up millions to build more houses

So what are the figures for non-payment of rents?

Redgirl82

jm08 wrote: »

I only want to make the point that I think there needs to be a change in direction of housing policy back to the State/Co Council directly involved in building and providing social housing.

As I posted the main issue I see is non payment of rent, why waste more money Building house to give to people who have no intention of paying rent?

Fix the current system first

The concentration should be on affordable housing and fix the public transport so people can live outside main cities.

Redgirl82

jm08 wrote: »

So what are the figures for non-payment of rents?

Seemingly 33 million which would build a few houses would it not?

https://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-city-council-5-4956180-Jan2020/?amp=1

jm08

Redgirl82 wrote: »

As I posted the main issue I see is non payment of rent, why waste more money Building house to give to people who have no intention of paying rent?

Fix the current system first

The concentration should be on affordable housing and fix the public transport so people can live outside main cities.

Well what about actually doing something about collecting rent like evicting people if they don't.


Found some info on Dublin City Council about this:
https://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-city-council-5-4956180-Jan2020/


Looks like they need some proper legislation to deal with this such as taking rent money directly from social welfare payments and Eviction Legislation. From what I read, some tenants are trying it on because they think they can get away with it.


Still, there are plenty of families who are now living in hotel bedrooms who would be only too happy to rent a corporation house at a reasonable rate.

All those rent supplements cost money as well!

FrancieBrady

jm08 wrote: »

Well what about actually doing something about collecting rent like evicting people if they don't.


Found some info on Dublin City Council about this:
https://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-city-council-5-4956180-Jan2020/


Looks like they need some proper legislation to deal with this such as taking rent money directly from social welfare payments and Eviction Legislation. From what I read, some tenants are trying it on because they think they can get away with it.


Still, there are plenty of families who are now living in hotel bedrooms who would be only too happy to rent a corporation house at a reasonable rate.

All those rent supplements cost money as well!

40% of those in arrears are paying...if you start evicting them you get nothing only the costs of evicting them and then you create more homeless people.

So, the 33m figure starts diminishing very quickly...lets say you manage to get 20m....so to meet the SF proposed spend, you only have to get another 5.475 billion approx.

A child would know this is not a solution.

jm08

FrancieBrady wrote: »

40% of those in arrears are paying...if you start evicting them you get nothing only the costs of evicting them and then you create more homeless people.

So, the 33m figure starts diminishing very quickly...lets say you manage to get 20m....so to meet the SF proposed spend, you only have to get another 5.475 billion approx.

A child would know this is not a solution.

I wouldn't evict them all. Just to use it as a threat to sort those out who are acting the micky.

FrancieBrady

jm08 wrote: »

I wouldn't evict them all. Just to use it as a threat to sort those out who are acting the micky.

So Redgirl has about 5 or 6 million to spend.

jm08

Redgirl82 wrote: »

As I posted the main issue I see is non payment of rent, why waste more money Building house to give to people who have no intention of paying rent?

Fix the current system first

The concentration should be on affordable housing and fix the public transport so people can live outside main cities.

There are a lot of people out there who will never be able to afford their own home in Dublin anyway (for example, those on the minimum wage like cleaners, delivery people etc). We are going to have an awful lot of social problems in a few years if they are not provided with decent housing.

jm08

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So Redgirl has about 5 or 6 million to spend.

I think Redgirl is probably thinking more about providing affordable housing for people who could have bought a house back in the 80s like nurses, teachers etc and not about the minimum wage workers which there are lot of.

maccored

Redgirl82 wrote: »

Sorry I have googled, looked around and nothing is listed.

So based on all news media this is just made up list of things. So why didn't you say that in first place?

Best you could come up with is an imaginary list, after all of your posts. Fairly poor showing from Sinn Fein up the North. Remind me why are you voting for them again?

you really shouldnt be debating about something you clearly dont know much about

markodaly

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

SF may or may not succeed in fixing the stagflation issue, but at least they want to.

Why would either FF or FG not want to fix the current issues with housing?
Do you honestly think that? These are political parties whose interests are based on getting votes and being in power because of their vote share.
To say that they do not want to fix the issue thus costing them votes come election time and FF/FG being OK with that outcome makes no sense at all.

Now you can question their policies, and their lack of urgency perhaps, but to say that they don't want to fix it, does not make sense.

I have been critical of the government for the fact that it just takes far too long to fix/build things in Ireland. From a simple road to the Metro project, the timelines of getting things done are just far too long. Too much red tape, too many hoops to jump through, just too many layers.

This is, however, indicative of the society we want and built ourselves. Lots of people want change but they also want their own lives to remain unaffected.
This is an Irish thing, not a FF or FG thing.

SF will find this out too when/if they go into power. We are an odd bunch.

If you've read this post, and are still confused as to what SF's supporters find so good about their current policies, then I'm honestly curious - which part of this analysis is falling down for you? Are you disputing (a) that people are being seriously, seriously hurt by the current clusterf*ck that is the Irish rental situation, that (b) none of the other parties have either the ideology or the credibility to convince anyone that they'll make an honest attempt to fix that problem, or that (c) Sinn Fein have claimed that they'll make an honest attempt to fix it and don't have the credibility vacuum that FF does? Is there some other reason for discounting this explanation?

This paragraph reads as if its still Feb 2020. It is now May 2020 and the rental situation is very very different, and will be for the next 12-18 months or so.

but I'd love it if someone chose the specific parts they don't believe are true before the next "but why vote for SF?" post comes along, and actually offered some kind of rebuttal.

I know perfectly well, why people voted for them. They were 'anyone but FF/FG party' who have no track record to judge them by. They are the Irish populist party because they will say anything to get more votes, even though much of their manifesto is unreasonable and unattainable.
Take the pension age thing. Pure populism. Do you know in the North they voted to increase it, but in the south, before the election, they want to lower it.
Anyway, Covid-19 has put that idea back a bit.

SF will become like the Irish Labour party. Labour over-promised in 2011 but reality hit them in the face, the electorate felt aggrieved so returned the gesture.
If you promise the earth, moon and stars but in power, you don't give them that, then you will suffer electorally.

To summarise briefly, young people are being utterly f*cked over

There may be more than meets the eye here, as I said.

FF and FG are too cautious when it comes to fixing the problems experienced by younger people.
Housing, childcare, commuting, that sort of thing.

I agree, that they have not done enough while FG and FF appear at least to be more concerned with keeping things as they are at looking after the older generation, the generation that votes.

Yet, with SF I feel many people will be disappointed and again, the lack of progress on many of these issues are issues with Irish society.
One example, the NBRU came out this week and asked the government to cancel the Metro project and BusConnects.

Think about that. The biggest Transport Union in the state being anti-Transport.
Like how Irish socialists are against the property tax. We are an odd bunch.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I actually think, given they are dealing with one of the most fundamentalist and culturally bigoted parties in western Europe in Northern Ireland that they have done spectacularly well.
They spent 20 years advancing NI back to normality (other parties were involved in what is technically a 5 party coalition as well) and they have delivered (even though they had to walk away) for Irish language SSM and womens's right, they have worked hard at normalising parades, the flying of flags. They have worked at creating and monitoring a newly structured police force ALL the people can have some confidence in. And most recently have aligned North and South on Brexit and Covid. They were talking about special status and treatment of NI in Brexit long before the government here were and spoke on it in the Dáíl and Europe.

A lot of this is tipping around the edges and belies the fact that NI society is changing without SF, just look at the vote share of SF and the DUP recently, both declining.

This is because both these parties have an inherent interest to keep the Green/Orange sectarian status quo.
SF give as good as they get from the DUP when it comes to this type of policy.

A good example would be reforming primary and secondary education and not supporting the sectarian makeup of schools. If SF really really wanted to bring NI to Western Europe norms, then they would multi-denominational schools, like they do in the south, but in the North, they want to keep that sectarian makeup of schools, as they see it as a good way to keep votes. Keep people tied into the old ways.

If Catholics and Protestants up north mixed more, married into their respective 'clans' more that would break the cycle of extremism that currently exists. However, that would mean centrist parties would then benefit from this, not the extremist parties. So, SF and the DUP are happy to carve the region up.

Just one recent example, in regards to the census, where people would tick the 'Athiest' box, SF has pushed for an additional question about the background that person grew up i.e. catholic or protestant.

So, are you a Catholic atheist or a protestant atheist. I am sure there is a joke in there somewhere.

SF is absolutely obsessed about religion and the demographic wave that will sweep NI into the arms of the south, lovely theory, except for the fact that more and more people, especially the young don't give a $hit.

markodaly

jm08 wrote: »

Back in the 50s/60s, when Ireland was very, very poor with a huge amount of emigration, it managed to build thousands of council houses all over the country. If they could do it then, I don't know why they can't do it now.

In the 50's/60's we also solved the issue of single mothers by putting them into Mother and Baby Homes. If we can do it then, why can we not do it now?

:rolleyes:

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Sure, I 'made up' the delivery of 'Irish Language Rights, SSM, and Women's Rights after years of pressure and attempts to have them passed by the Executive but thwarted by the DUP and UUP and TUV using Petitions of Concern.

I made up the Reform of Policing in Northern Ireland
I 'made up' what happened with Brexit and the avoidance of a Hard Border.
I 'made up' the establishing of an all Ireland body to manage Covid-19
I 'made up' the reduction in contentious parading
I 'made up' the normalising of flag flying.

As I come-back or response, it doesn't lack uniqueness anyway Redgirl...just pretend the above never happened.

In fairness, a lot of what you mentioned is fluff.

Going on about flags and parades as 'achievements' is kinda odd for a Western European political party.
Policing was agreed as part of the GFA and SF refused to endorse it for years, until they relented.
A hard border? SF did nothing on that front, you can thank FG for that, I know you won't be there you go.

It is notable though on the things you have not mentioned.

The big-ticket items, jobs, economy, housing, health, and education..... what are SF's achievements there? Feck all to be honest.

So, if all SF can do is point to success about flags and fluff about parades yet ignore, say the state of the health service, then you know they are in trouble.
This is why their vote share is falling, they think it's still the 90's.

markodaly

markodaly wrote: »

In the 50's/60's we also solved the issue of single mothers by putting them into Mother and Baby Homes. If we can do it then, why can we not do it now?

:rolleyes:

This has what to do with a housing crisis.....facts stand,when we were on our knees as a country we could build social housing and clear tenaments

Now we are told we are rich,econmy a success,yet by last xmas,we had more homeless than at anytime since the famine.....we have lost our way,badly in terms of what is important

Runaways

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This has what to do with a housing crisis.....facts stand,when we were on our knees as a country we could build social housing and clear tenaments

Now we are told we are rich,econmy a success,yet by last xmas,we had more homeless than at anytime since the famine.....we have lost our way,badly in terms of what is important

On a moral and constitutional level we have completely lost our way

But the current position with exponential homelessness and repossessions is FG policy and somehow we keep letting them away with that

Redgirl82

maccored wrote: »

you really shouldnt be debating about something you clearly dont know much about

I wasn't debating? I asked a question. Not sure what the confusion is here. I did state a number of times on my post I asked a question. If you ask a question normally you get an answer. I didn't get one so I have come to the conclusion that Sinn Fein record in the North is poor. We can have another two pages from Francie again today and end up exactly in the same place

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

In fairness, a lot of what you mentioned is fluff.

Going on about flags and parades as 'achievements' is kinda odd for a Western European political party.
Policing was agreed as part of the GFA and SF refused to endorse it for years, until they relented.
A hard border? SF did nothing on that front, you can thank FG for that, I know you won't be there you go.

It is notable though on the things you have not mentioned.

The big-ticket items, jobs, economy, housing, health, and education..... what are SF's achievements there? Feck all to be honest.

So, if all SF can do is point to success about flags and fluff about parades yet ignore, say the state of the health service, then you know they are in trouble.
This is why their vote share is falling, they think it's still the 90's.

You don't know a lot about the north, do you Mark?
'Flags and Parades' are a very 'odd' thing and getting the OO, Loyalism and Unionsim to behave around those issues has been some of the most bitter and acrimonious work any political party has done on these islands.
It may mean nothing to you but it has made a massive difference to society there.

I laugh at your mealy mouthedness over policing. Really laugh.
There would have been no disbandment and renaming of the disgraced RUC, the PSNI now has proper oversight and is building the trust of all the community. There has been mammoth work done there and SF were at the forefront of that.
They were way ahead of FG on the border. I linked to Enda Kenny rulling out special status before. SF used the Dáil debates to argue for it and the Dublin government's position changed and the entire body politic here got behind them.

I didn't mention the 'big ticket' items because they more or less function like they do here. And here you will have the usual arguments about who is doing what in those areas.

By improving the areas I highlighted and normalising society then those big ticket areas will improve.

But there is a finite limit on what anyone can do in the north as it is still a failed entity as a result of partition.