Is it just me or have SF vanished?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

It is a good idea to look at the timings of various happenings. For example, the "Blueshirt" taunting of Fine Gael as quasi-Fascists is historically inaccurate. There was a split in Fine Gael, less than two years after it was founded, leading to those with fascist tendencies leaving completely and founding the National Corporate Party. That split was 1934, before the enactment of the Nuremburg Laws and the full horror of Nazism was revealed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Corporate_Party

In essence then, the claim that Fine Gael had links to fascism centres around a short period of time after its foundation at a time when the evils of fascism weren't widely known, when there was a struggle for the leadership and direction of the party, which the fascist element lost and left the party for another direction.

What was interesting about the article I posted earlier, was the reference in it to links between the fascist remnants of the Blueshirts which weren't welcome in Fine Gael and the IRA. It was a link that I had previously been unaware of

"The strategist of the bombing campaign, James O’Donovan, was also seen by some as influenced by fascist thinking. It was in this context that IRA officers could approach Eoin O’Duffy, who as a Free State general, Garda Commissioner and Blueshirt leader had been a sworn enemy of their organisation, and offer him a place in its leadership. Clearly a section of the leadership at least was also happy to revel in Nazi successes."

There are some very dark elements to the history of the IRA in that period.

"the argument that Russell and the IRA could have had no idea of the nature of Nazi policies is spurious."

"Seán Russell may have been uninterested in political debate but he was hardly unaware of these matters. That he was happy to take up residence in Berlin as a guest of the Nazis, meet their high command and propose plans for military action in support of a German invasion was collaboration, whatever his private motivation."

"unlike these hypothetical collaborators, the IRA actually wanted a German invasion and was in a position for a period to physically assist one. That is the central problem that many still refuse to face up to."

It is a very balanced and accurate historical account that makes for very interesting reading.

https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/oh-heres-to-adolph-hitler-the-ira-and-the-nazis/

Another interesting article on IRA/Nazi links.

https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/new-evidence-on-iranazi-links/

And dark elements in FG of the period. However much you try to trivialise/whitewash it, there is this fact.

Links were made with fascist organisations on the continent. Even as O’Duffy was made President of the new Fine Gael party, the more staid conservatives in the ranks began to run scared of the street battles and the General’s increasingly wild pronouncements.

Nevertheless, a future Taoiseach, John A. Costello, during a debate on a bill to outlaw paramilitary uniform in 1934, told the Dáil that ‘the Blackshirts were victorious in Italy and that the Hitler shirts were victorious in Germany, as, assuredly, in spite of this Bill and in spite of the Public Safety Act, the Blueshirts will be victorious in the Irish Free State’.

https://www.lookleftonline.org/2010/08/fine-gaels-fascist-roots/

My view, expressed before, is acceptance that these things happened, Russell's stupid dalliance included.

I point the finger at the generation not at single people or party's because it feeds into my bias.

Discuss it all openly, or not at all.

dundalkfc10

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

SF should be more vocal on the BLM protests but i guess all the people they get money from the states from are trumpers now.

I agree they shouldn't be happening as every single one them is breaching social distancing

Edgware

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And dark elements in FG of the period. However much you try to trivialise/whitewash it, there is this fact.



https://www.lookleftonline.org/2010/08/fine-gaels-fascist-roots/

My view, expressed before, is acceptance that these things happened, Russell's stupid dalliance included.

I point the finger at the generation not at single people or party's because it feeds into my bias.

Discuss it all openly, or not at all.

That approach wouldnt really meet "the baying mobs with pitchforks" way we do things here

FrancieBrady

Edgware wrote: »

That approach wouldnt really meet "the baying mobs with pitchforks" way we do things here

No, it wouldn't.
Despite Leo and FG trying to motivate a braying mob over the Russell statue, most people can see through it, I would say.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

My view, expressed before, is acceptance that these things happened, Russell's stupid dalliance included.

He wasn't on a solo run. The IRA at the time were fully behind him, considering he was their leader, and to this day Sinn Fein commemorate him as an Irish patriot.

dundalkfc10

Deleted User wrote: »

He wasn't on a solo run. The IRA at the time were fully behind him, considering he was their leader, and to this day Sinn Fein commemorate him as an Irish patriot.

Im sure FF and FG and SF supporters have all supported GAA clubs called John Mitchell's

We are all racist Ted, Will we have to change the name of Blackrock in Cork and Dublin?

Chiparus

Deleted User wrote: »

He wasn't on a solo run. The IRA at the time were fully behind him, considering he was their leader, and to this day Sinn Fein commemorate him as an Irish patriot.

And Roger Casemen t. A hero, anti-slavery campaigner and British Knight.

Edgware

Chiparus wrote: »

And Roger Casemen t. A hero, anti-slavery campaigner and British Knight.

And a keeper of his little black book

imme

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

No acknowledgement for the wonderful job SF have done north of the border, 4 days now with 0 deaths.

See what happens when they are in charge

Where, when, how.

Does SF have the health portfolio all of a sudden.

The last piece of SF stellar statesmanship that I heard from NI was poor Connor Murphy having to retract what he had said about Tory austerity being responsible for the lockdown in NI.

blanch152

blanch152 wrote: »

How do you know that?

To the best of my knowledge, it meets an awful lot more regularly than that.

See how this works.

It last met in 2005 to announce end to the war,and prior to this in 1997 to allow decomissioning?.....afaik it meet like 5 times during entiretly of the troubles

I have never seen any evidence/suggestion it has met in intervening time (hint war ending,negages need to meet)



It has only met a handful of times,quite how lads think they meeting up to propose building social housing like fair play and all...i just dont buy it





So,who is its present chief of staff

ILoveYourVibes

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

SF should be more vocal on the BLM protests but i guess all the people they get money from the states from are trumpers now.

I think ending direct provision and repealing the 27th ammendment here,would be more relevent??

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And dark elements in FG of the period. However much you try to trivialise/whitewash it, there is this fact.



https://www.lookleftonline.org/2010/08/fine-gaels-fascist-roots/

My view, expressed before, is acceptance that these things happened, Russell's stupid dalliance included.

I point the finger at the generation not at single people or party's because it feeds into my bias.

Discuss it all openly, or not at all.

So the Irish government was as bad as the Nazis? Seriously, you can't just point the finger equally at everyone, that is the lame excuse that Sinn Fein use all the time.

As always, there are degrees of culpability, and Russell is a particularly nasty figure from that time over a long period of association with Sinn Fein.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

So the Irish government was as bad as the Nazis?

blanch on his misrepresentation hobby horse again.

Seriously, you can't just point the finger equally at everyone, that is the lame excuse that Sinn Fein use all the time.

As always, there are degrees of culpability, and Russell is a particularly nasty figure from that time over a long period of association with Sinn Fein.

Sorry...if you want to engage in pointing fingers then you have to point at everyone and see how they fare.

This isn't your selective wee bubble.

blanch152

blanch152 wrote: »

So the Irish government was as bad as the Nazis? Seriously, you can't just point the finger equally at everyone, that is the lame excuse that Sinn Fein use all the time.

As always, there are degrees of culpability, and Russell is a particularly nasty figure from that time over a long period of association with Sinn Fein.

Was he not replaced by the ira by frank ryan (anniversairy today btw RIP) a man with some pretty serious anti facist credentials?

blackwhite

Deleted User wrote: »

Was he not replaced by the ira by frank ryan (anniversairy today btw RIP) a man with some pretty serious anti facist credentials?

And who was quite happy to do a volte-face on those credentials to spend the last 4 years of his life living in Nazi Germany, working with the Nazis through the majority of WW2

maccored

blanch152 wrote: »

Borders bring smugglers, yes, that it true, nobody disputes that. In itself, that isn't reason to get rid of a border.

However, the problem people have, is not the existence of borders or of smugglers that exploit them, it is the celebration of criminal smuggler thugs as "good republicans" as the former leader of Sinn Fein repeatedly did, and for which the current leadership refuse to apologise.

no - the accusation is being made that SFers and SF supporters are doing all the laundering of diesel etc etc. totally inaccurate and its the kind of throw it and see if it sticks crap that goes on around here. usually by people who apparently hate the party but take every opportunity to tell us all the things SF seem to do. The ABSF people are a bit strange that way. almost like SF worship in reverse

blackwhite

blackwhite wrote: »

And who was quite happy to do a volte-face on those credentials to spend the last 4 years of his life living in Nazi Germany, working with the Nazis through the majority of WW2

Aye....though his involvement with nazis pre augest 1940 and post june 1941 seems to been near zero with them


He is a fasinating excert of irish history,who id loved to learn more on tbh,

Believed to be the ira representive in europe during ww2,similar part to what Fr Ryan of tipp done for the provos it seems (i do love the yearn about him and confession )



As for sean russell....il take the word of erwin lahousen of neuremberg trial fame on him

Chiparus

Hubertj wrote: »

you can use google. Did you really not know that? Only the US and Switzerland spend more.

I did , I could not find it any where, are you confusing Ireland with Norway or Luxembourg perhaps?

Suckit

blanch152 wrote: »

About time, and to think he is still celebrated by many Sinn Fein supporters.

A Nazi collaborator statue has no place.

Sounds like sour grapes O'Duffy never got a statue.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, it wouldn't.
Despite Leo and FG trying to motivate a braying mob over the Russell statue, most people can see through it, I would say.

That Sean Russell statue was seen as contentious for a long time before Leo ever mentioned it.

paul71

Chiparus wrote: »

I did , I could not find it any where, are you confusing Ireland with Norway or Luxembourg perhaps?

I would have thought Irelands high expenditure on Health was common knowledge, but to correct the previous poster I believe we are 5th not 3rd.

Bishop of hope

paul71 wrote: »

I would have thought Irelands high expenditure on Health was common knowledge, but to correct the previous poster I believe we are 5th not 3rd.

In terms of gdp our spend is low.
In 2018 we were ranked 27th in that scale, well down the list.
I don't imagine it's changed much since.



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/state-among-highest-spenders-on-health-per-person-in-oecd-1.3547256

paul71

Bishop of hope wrote: »

In terms of gdp our spend is low.
In 2018 we were ranked 27th in that scale, well down the list.
I don't imagine it's changed much since.



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/state-among-highest-spenders-on-health-per-person-in-oecd-1.3547256

GDP makes very little sense in measuring our spend because of the inclusion of multinational profits routed through Ireland which bear no correlation to economic activity in Ireland.

We are 5th on per captia spend 5528(euro) in 2018, which incidentally is only barely behind Germany 5551(euro).

Bishop of hope

paul71 wrote: »

GDP makes very little sense in measuring our spend because of the inclusion of multinational profits routed through Ireland which bear no correlation to economic activity in Ireland.

We are 5th on per captia spend 5528(euro) in 2018, which incidentally is only barely behind Germany 5551(euro).

Our health service is poor for our spend anyway.
Let that be mismanagement or poor governance.
So GDP bears no correlation to economic activity in Ireland.
That's a flawed statement or there is something terribly wrong with our tax system, your basically saying we are a tax haven so?

Bishop of hope

Ledger Squeaking Pediatrician wrote: »

According to most economists we are, yes.

To what advantage if gdp bears no relation to economic activity?

paul71

Bishop of hope wrote: »

Our health service is poor for our spend anyway.
Let that be mismanagement or poor governance.
So GDP bears no correlation to economic activity in Ireland.
That's a flawed statement or there is something terribly wrong with our tax system, your basically saying we are a tax haven so?

Yes we are and yes your health system is seriously flawed but it is not and never has been underfunded.

Chiparus

paul71 wrote: »

GDP makes very little sense in measuring our spend because of the inclusion of multinational profits routed through Ireland which bear no correlation to economic activity in Ireland.

We are 5th on per captia spend 5528(euro) in 2018, which incidentally is only barely behind Germany 5551(euro).

lets see,
5528 X 4.9 million -27 .1 billion??


Seems to be 10 billion over the official figure?

My bad , 13 billion above the official figure.

paul71

Chiparus wrote: »

lets see,
5528 X 4.9 million -27 .1 billion??


Seems to be 10 billion over the official figure?

It is total expenditure on health as published by WHO , private and public and is measured the same way as in all other countries. Take the US for example. 9900 per person per year, that is almost entirely private.

Bishop of hope

Chiparus wrote: »

lets see,
5528 X 4.9 million -27 .1 billion??


Seems to be 10 billion over the official figure?

We might being racist and only counting citizens!

Chiparus

paul71 wrote: »

It is total expenditure on health as published by WHO , private and public and is measured the same way as in all other countries. Take the US for example. 9900 per person per year, that is almost entirely private.

So private medicine is 13 billion in Ireland ?

who knew?