Is it just me or have SF vanished?

Chiparus

Bishop of hope wrote: »

We might being racist and only counting citizens!

No , fairly sure the census counts all residents.

paul71

Chiparus wrote: »

So private medicine is 13 billion in Ireland ?

who knew?

Not surprising really, add up all payouts by VHI and the other insurance companies and all money paid directly for private gp visits and prescriptions.

Chiparus

paul71 wrote: »

Not surprising really, add up all payouts by VHI and the other insurance companies and all money paid directly for private gp visits and prescriptions.

Still does not add up.

€600 miliilion was the out of pocket cost for prescriptions that year for example.

paul71

Chiparus wrote: »

Still does not add up.

€600 miliilion was the out of pocket cost for prescriptions that year for example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita


Here you go, if you have any further doubts you can refer them to the professional statisticians of The World Health Organisation.

JohnnyFlash

All the parties have signed up to Sláintecare, which is a good start when trying to tackle the enormously complex problem that is healthcare.

There two major issues that are making healthcare delivery and funding increasingly complex. One we have some control over, and the other is just a macro issue being witnessed worldwide.

1) We have far too many small hospitals. Hospitals like Our Ladies in Navan, Cavan Monagahan General Hospital etc. Places that provide almost no specialities, or else do them badly. They belong to the era of the horse and cart, nuns delivering babies, and TB outbreaks. Yet you'll have a load of slack-jawed yokels standing outside protesting if it's suggested that a specialist unit within the hospital is moved.

We now have motorways and air ambulances. Regional hospitals might work as step-down facilities, but have no place offering acute services. WE need to build more large hospitals in major population centres - Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick. This is covered under Sláintecare. We even have the sites in many cases - Merlin Park in Galway was a former TB hospital that can provide a site for a large hospital with access to the motorway network.

2) People are living far longer. Modern medicine means people are living far longer, and have far better outcomes and chances of survival when they do get sick. This is putting enormous strain on our healthcare service (and on housing, but that's for another thread). This isn't unique to Ireland, and much vaunted healthcare systems like those in Canada and Finland are also struggling with this situation.

There's no easy answers, and populist rhetoric in healthcare is particularly damaging to civil discourse as it promises things that can't be delivered.

Chiparus

paul71 wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita


Here you go, if you have any further doubts you can refer them to the professional statisticians of The World Health Organisation.

Or the people who supply them erroneous figures.

paul71

Chiparus wrote: »

Or the people who supply them erroneous figures.

Rubbish, you are clutching at straws.

Chiparus

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

All the parties have signed up to Sláintecare, which is a good start when trying to tackle the enormously complex problem that is healthcare.

There two major issues that are making healthcare delivery and funding increasingly complex. One we have some control over, and the other is just a macro issue being witnessed worldwide.

1) We have far too many small hospitals. Hospitals like Our Ladies in Navan, Cavan Monagahan General Hospital etc. Places that provide almost no specialities, or else do them badly. They belong to the era of the horse and cart, nuns delivering babies, and TB outbreaks. Yet you'll have a load of slack-jawed yokels standing outside protesting if it's suggested that a specialist unit within the hospital is moved.

We now have motorways and air ambulances. Regional hospitals might work as step-down facilities, but have no place offering acute services. WE need to build more large hospitals in major population centres - Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick. This is covered under Sláintecare. We even have the sites in many cases - Merlin Park in Galway was a former TB hospital that can provide a site for a large hospital with access to the motorway network.

2) People are living far longer. Modern medicine means people are living far longer, and have far better outcomes and chances of survival when they do get sick. This is putting enormous strain on our healthcare service (and on housing, but that's for another thread). This isn't unique to Ireland, and much vaunted healthcare systems like those in Canada and Finland are also struggling with this situation.

There's no easy answers, and populist rhetoric in healthcare is particularly damaging to civil discourse as it promises things that can't be delivered.

We actually have far too many hospitals in Dublin and need to close at least two major ones and concentrate the funds in the others.
But we cannot allow the mistakes that have turned Galway and Limerick hospitals into sh*tholes.

paul71

Chiparus wrote: »

Or the people who supply them erroneous figures.

BTW you supplied an erroneous figure earlier, 2017 public health expenditure was 21.1 billion.

https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/governmentaccounts/systemofhealthaccounts/

Chiparus

paul71 wrote: »

Rubbish, you are clutching at straws.

Yep, the figures dont add up and my explanation is "clutching at straws".

We dont spend $27.1 billion on health in Ireland.

Chiparus

paul71 wrote: »

BTW you supplied an erroneous figure earlier, 2017 public health expenditure was 21.1 billion.

https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/governmentaccounts/systemofhealthaccounts/

No thats "total health expenditure"

The public health budget was 14.6 billion , with overruns it was just over 15 billion.

JJJackal

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

1) We have far too many small hospitals. Hospitals like Our Ladies in Navan, Cavan Monagahan General Hospital etc. Places that provide almost no specialities, or else do them badly. They belong to the era of the horse and cart, nuns delivering babies, and TB outbreaks. Yet you'll have a load of slack-jawed yokels standing outside protesting if it's suggested that a specialist unit within the hospital is moved.

This is the root of the problem. These hospitals need to merge with larger hospitals.

For example lets say you have 1 respiratory specialist in Cavan Monagahan. There is likely to be no resp cover for a couple of months a year with leave, conferences, CPD commitments etc. If Cavan merged with Navan or Drogheda for example you would have far more consultants and specialists and could make a case for specialities that are in less demand in the new institution

Chiparus

JJJackal wrote: »

This is the root of the problem. These hospitals need to merge with larger hospitals.

For example lets say you have 1 respiratory specialist in Cavan Monagahan. There is likely to be no resp cover for a couple of months a year with leave, conferences, CPD commitments etc. If Cavan merged with Navan or Drogheda for example you would have far more consultants and specialists and could make a case for specialities that are in less demand in the new institution

Unfortunately they have done that before and more people died because of the resulting overcrowding eg Limerick and Galway.
The result is that the consultants in these institutions do less call and have more time for private practice

Bishop of hope

paul71 wrote: »

Rubbish, you are clutching at straws.

Wikipedia, you could update Wikipedia!

Bishop of hope

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

All the parties have signed up to Sláintecare, which is a good start when trying to tackle the enormously complex problem that is healthcare.

There two major issues that are making healthcare delivery and funding increasingly complex. One we have some control over, and the other is just a macro issue being witnessed worldwide.

1) We have far too many small hospitals. Hospitals like Our Ladies in Navan, Cavan Monagahan General Hospital etc. Places that provide almost no specialities, or else do them badly. They belong to the era of the horse and cart, nuns delivering babies, and TB outbreaks. Yet you'll have a load of slack-jawed yokels standing outside protesting if it's suggested that a specialist unit within the hospital is moved.

We now have motorways and air ambulances. Regional hospitals might work as step-down facilities, but have no place offering acute services. WE need to build more large hospitals in major population centres - Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick. This is covered under Sláintecare. We even have the sites in many cases - Merlin Park in Galway was a former TB hospital that can provide a site for a large hospital with access to the motorway network.

2) People are living far longer. Modern medicine means people are living far longer, and have far better outcomes and chances of survival when they do get sick. This is putting enormous strain on our healthcare service (and on housing, but that's for another thread). This isn't unique to Ireland, and much vaunted healthcare systems like those in Canada and Finland are also struggling with this situation.

There's no easy answers, and populist rhetoric in healthcare is particularly damaging to civil discourse as it promises things that can't be delivered.

Absolute bunkum, FG bunkum and indeed started by FF.
A few more consultants in a, few more regional hospitals would make a world of difference to the health service and indeed its patients.
The stress of long commutes for anyone with life threatening illness is enormous.
The centralisation of these services along with hospital bed closures are a disaster.
The money paid out for private hospital beds during the crisis shows this up for what it is really.
If we had our previous bed counts from before this program started we wouldn't have needed it.
And we needed it before this virus came along too.
A health policy that sees hundreds of I'll patients sleeping on trollies in hospital corridors getting the thumbs up?
FFS wake up, it's been a disaster for everyone.

And that's not criticising over the take over of private beds, it was necessary. But it shouldn't have been

Chiparus

Bishop of hope wrote: »

Absolute bunkum, FG bunkum and indeed started by FF.
A few more consultants in a, few more regional hospitals would make a world of difference to the health service and indeed its patients.
The stress of long commutes for anyone with life threatening illness is enormous.
The centralisation of these services along with hospital bed closures are a disaster.
The money paid out for private hospital beds during the crisis shows this up for what it is really.
If we had our previous bed counts from before this program started we wouldn't have needed it.
And we needed it before this virus came along too.
A health policy that sees hundreds of I'll patients sleeping on trollies in hospital corridors getting the thumbs up?
FFS wake up, it's been a disaster for everyone.

And that's not criticising over the take over of private beds, it was necessary. But it shouldn't have been

You think it was by accident?

Ask why in a counrty with free healthcare 2.1 million of us pay for private insurance.

Privitasation by stealth .

JohnnyFlash

Chiparus wrote: »

You think it was by accident?

Ask why in a counrty with free healthcare 2.1 million of us pay for private insurance.

Privitasation by stealth .

Have a read of the Slaintecare document. Even SF signed up for it. It’s the opposite of privatisation.

Why is the people who know the least about something are the ones who spend so much time spouting shïte about it on the internet?

Edgware

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Have a read of the Slaintecare document. Even SF signed up for it. It’s the opposite of privatisation.

Why is the people who know the least about something are the ones who spend so much time spouting shïte about it on the internet?

Thats the beauty of the internet

Bishop of hope

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Have a read of the Slaintecare document. Even SF signed up for it. It’s the opposite of privatisation.

Why is the people who know the least about something are the ones who spend so much time spouting shïte about it on the internet?

It's easy to spout ****e, from any side.
How, was slainte care with the trolley crisis last winter, trollies in hospital corridors, old people there sometimes for days at a time.
The word slainte is a clue in itself if you need sudden hospital care.

Chiparus

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Have a read of the Slaintecare document. Even SF signed up for it. It’s the opposite of privatisation.

Why is the people who know the least about something are the ones who spend so much time spouting shïte about it on the internet?

Yes I have, slainte care is very aspirational. I fear the money is not going to be given , and I hear the DoH are not great fans, for example we need extra 2500 beds under Slainte care, but it looks like we will lose 20% capacity due to Covid.

so thats 5000 beds needed ! 5 billion in capital funding
The funding so far does not inspire me with confidence.
https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/a98320-minister-for-health-announces-20-million-funding-for-122-slaintecare/

There are big players in the private hospital industry, politically connected big players with lots to lose if the public health care system becomes fit for purpose.

With Covid the private system will provide more and more for the public health service, not just NTPF but oncology and elective and some trauma orthopaedics among others.

blanch152

Still no sign of the alternative Programme for Government from Sinn Fein. Did they ever even commence discussions with PBP or the Social Democrats who both indicated willingness to talk to them?

Having watched the extent of the negotiations needed to conclude the current proposed Programme for Government, the question really has to be asked whether Sinn Fein were ever serious about going into government, and whether Mary-Lou has been telling lies ever since the election was called about her party's willingness to enter government.

Hubertj

Bishop of hope wrote: »

It's easy to spout ****e, from any side.
How, was slainte care with the trolley crisis last winter, trollies in hospital corridors, old people there sometimes for days at a time.
The word slainte is a clue in itself if you need sudden hospital care.

Slainte Care hasnt been implemented so is not relevant to current challenges in the health sector. Maybe get facts straight?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Still no sign of the alternative Programme for Government from Sinn Fein. Did they ever even commence discussions with PBP or the Social Democrats who both indicated willingness to talk to them?

Having watched the extent of the negotiations needed to conclude the current proposed Programme for Government, the question really has to be asked whether Sinn Fein were ever serious about going into government, and whether Mary-Lou has been telling lies ever since the election was called about her party's willingness to enter government.

I think SF will be delighted with this outcome if they all go in.

I don't think they were serious about sledgehammering their principles into a government that will be riven with crisis.

If they are playing the long game, this is about as perfect as it gets I'd imagine. At least two of these parties will be decimated at next election.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think SF will be delighted with this outcome if they all go in.

I don't think they were serious about sledgehammering their principles into a government that will be riven with crisis.

If they are playing the long game, this is about as perfect as it gets I'd imagine. At least two of these parties will be decimated at next election.

In essence, you are confirming my opinion that Mary-Lou has been completely disingenuous about forming a government, and it was all talk and no action, with her repeatedly lying about being serious.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

In essence, you are confirming my opinion that Mary-Lou has been completely disingenuous about forming a government, and it was all talk and no action, with her repeatedly lying about being serious.

No I think she and they were serious, they just were not going to sledgehammer principles into a power grab coalition. They are playing the long game IMO and this outcome if it happens could not be better...I said it from the start, if they cannot be in a government were they can enact their majority of the policy then this is the next best outcome.

If you are looking for 'disingenuousness / lies, look no further than Michael 'I will not go into coalition with FG' Martin that FG are delighted to be in bed with. I can't stop laughing at the desperation. They know this is the last spin of the power swap.

Bishop of hope

Hubertj wrote: »

Slainte Care hasnt been implemented so is not relevant to current challenges in the health sector. Maybe get facts straight?

Maybeook at my last sentence and maybe quit bragging on a policy until is implemented and proven a, success.
I see you bragged it up by saying even SF have signed up for it, good recommendation right there!

Hubertj

Bishop of hope wrote: »

Maybeook at my last sentence and maybe quit bragging on a policy until is implemented and proven a, success.
I see you bragged it up by saying even SF have signed up for it, good recommendation right there!

again get your facts straight.... i never bragged about slainte care or that SF signed up for it. I know nothing about it apart from the FACT it hasnt been implemented. i don't know if it is the answer to the problems in this country. i think the main problems are the DoH and HSE irrespecitve of who is in government and how much money is thrown at it.

Mortelaro

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No I think she and they were serious, they just were not going to sledgehammer principles into a power grab coalition. They are playing the long game IMO and this outcome if it happens could not be better...I said it from the start, if they cannot be in a government were they can enact their majority of the policy then this is the next best outcome.

That doesn't sit well
Principles, yet are prepared to see the country ruled by FFFGG for the next 5 years when they could have stopped it?
Shur what use is that?

I'd expect it could be 10years +++ before SF is in the Dublin government now if at all,if the government parties aren't eejits or have learned their lesson

FrancieBrady

Mortelaro wrote: »

That doesn't sit well
Principles, yet are prepared to see the country ruled by FFFGG for the next 5 years when they could have stopped it?
Shur what use is that?

I'd expect it could be 10years +++ before SF is in the Dublin government now if at all,if the government parties aren't eejits or have learned their lesson

What do you think the chances of that are?

maccored

blanch152 wrote: »

Still no sign of the alternative Programme for Government from Sinn Fein. Did they ever even commence discussions with PBP or the Social Democrats who both indicated willingness to talk to them?

Having watched the extent of the negotiations needed to conclude the current proposed Programme for Government, the question really has to be asked whether Sinn Fein were ever serious about going into government, and whether Mary-Lou has been telling lies ever since the election was called about her party's willingness to enter government.

what are you going to do if/when the ff/fg/greens go ahead? You'll have nothing 'SF blah blah hate them blah blah programme for government blah blah' to post about