Is it just me or have SF vanished?

Faugheen

joeguevara wrote: »

Why doesn’t either party stand up and admit none of this has anything to do with Covid. It’s pure oneupmanship and populist politics that helps nobody.

Actually, Mary Lou McDonald’s statement has everything to do with COVID.

I lost a family member and we couldn’t have a funeral. For her to talk about being there because it was the decent thing to do for a friend is a punch in the face and a f*ck you to those who made the sacrifice for the sake of public health.

So this is absolutely about COVID. Anyone trying to excuse this is just as stupid and naive.

And before anyone brings up the Garda’s funeral, don’t. I’m not interested in whataboutery.

mynamejeff

Bowie wrote: »

I'm not a SF supporter. .

joeguevara

Faugheen wrote: »

Actually, Mary Lou McDonald’s statement has everything to do with COVID.

I lost a family member and we couldn’t have a funeral. For her to talk about being there because it was the decent thing to do for a friend is a punch in the face and a f*ck you to those who made the sacrifice for the sake of public health.

So this is absolutely about COVID. Anyone trying to excuse this is just as stupid and naive.

And before anyone brings up the Garda’s funeral, don’t. I’m not interested in whataboutery.

I didn’t go to a funeral of my closest cousin who died and was the same age as me who died overnight. I didn’t attend the funeral of one of my father figures either because of restrictions. I get it.

It’s terrible i agree. But discussing it won’t change anything. What benefit has anyone got from the entire 2 days on this thread.

Bishop of hope

joeguevara wrote: »

I didn’t go to a funeral of my closest cousin who died and was the same age as me who died overnight. I didn’t attend the funeral of one of my father figures either because of restrictions. I get it.

It’s terrible i agree. But discussing it won’t change anything. What benefit has anyone got from the entire 2 days on this thread.

The tail can wag the dog like.
Crazy post Joe, we might as we'll scrap the thread, all threads for that matter, what's the point in discussing anything.
This is ongoing, a joint press conference cancelled today over it. Who knows what gets cancelled tomoro.
How can SF comment critically on govt covid health policy now and expect to be taken seriously, this will be thrown back in their faces.

joeguevara

Bishop of hope wrote: »

The tail can wag the dog like.
Crazy post Joe, we might as we'll scrap the thread, all threads for that matter, what's the point in discussing anything.
This is ongoing, a joint press conference cancelled today over it. Who knows what gets cancelled tomoro.
How can SF comment critically on govt covid health policy now and expect to be taken seriously, this will be thrown back in their faces.

This is not a Covid Thread. This is a SF vanished thread. If a single day is going to be used to constantly dismiss meaningful discussions by politicians about Ireland’s future then nothing will ever be achieved.

That is why I said senior members from all parties should do a press conference. Admit mistakes made on all sides. Put Ireland ahead of squabbles and grow up.

Bishop of hope

joeguevara wrote: »

This is not a Covid Thread. This is a SF vanished thread. If a single day is going to be used to constantly dismiss meaningful discussions by politicians about Ireland’s future then nothing will ever be achieved.

That is why I said senior members from all parties should do a press conference. Admit mistakes made on all sides. Put Ireland ahead of squabbles and grow up.

What mistakes were made on all sides at Storeys funeral?

joeguevara

Bishop of hope wrote: »

What mistakes were made on all sides at Storeys funeral?

Never said all sides made mistakes in relation to a single event.

Edgware

Bishop of hope wrote: »

What mistakes were made on all sides at Storeys funeral?

Just that it was 30 years too late

Bishop of hope

joeguevara wrote: »

Never said all sides made mistakes in relation to a single event.

This is about a single event, unless you dip into the whataboutry.
Do you think SF made a mistake here?

joeguevara

Bishop of hope wrote: »

This is about a single event, unless you dip into the whataboutry.
Do you think SF made a mistake here?

Yes of course I do. I dislike Sinn Fein and their policies. I think if they wanted to pay respect they could have done so through the live stream. Did you think I thought differently?

Edgware

Bishop of hope wrote: »

This is about a single event, unless you dip into the whataboutry.
Do you think SF made a mistake here?

No volley of shots yet for big Bobby?

Bishop of hope

joeguevara wrote: »

Yes of course I do. I dislike Sinn Fein and their policies. I think if they wanted to pay respect they could have done so through the live stream. Did you think I thought differently?

I knew your position, I was just wondering why you think we should move on from this.
As I said, I believe this event is going to be divisive over the coming short term, probably during marching season and with SF opposing any health advice or policy related to covid.
They have given their opponents the high moral ground here.
This will rumble on for a while for them whether we quit talking about it here or not.

kingbhome

Edgware wrote: »

No volley of shots yet for big Bobby?

There will be thou somewhere

FrancieBrady

Edgware wrote: »

No volley of shots yet for big Bobby?

That would have been an IRA funeral.

joeguevara

Bishop of hope wrote: »

I knew your position, I was just wondering why you think we should move on from this.
As I said, I believe this event is going to be divisive over the coming short term, probably during marching season and with SF opposing any health advice or policy related to covid.
They have given their opponents the high moral ground here.
This will rumble on for a while for them whether we quit talking about it here or not.

I wasn’t talking about us not talking about it. Was more talking about them. At the end of the day what is discussed between rival supporters here is irrelevant. Also with marching season do you think the moral high ground exists between anyone up there from either side. In fact it probably works in their favour. If they say, that it was an incident fuelled by mourning and with retrospect shouldn’t have happened as it did, then how can the unionists then backtrack.

Down here, I’d hope that political opinion will never go against medical advice. And the more vitriol spewed towards them will raise support in people who don’t really care.

If they are for medical advice then it is irrelevant. If they are against it, it means nothing that they breached it. In fact it assists it. What are you trying to say.

Spanish Eyes

SF speak out of both sides of their mouths, depending on which side of the Border they are on.

This has a lot to do with the 12th I think. I hope it doesn't escalate into anything bad.

Such a fk up of a Province. It will never really go away anyway.

joeguevara

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

SF speak out of both sides of their mouths, depending on which side of the Border they are on.

This has a lot to do with the 12th I think. I hope it doesn't escalate into anything bad.

Such a fk up of a Province. It will never really go away anyway.

Most of the discussions in this thread are to do with politicians from the Republic.

What do you mean this has to do with the 12th. If it was then there would have been no participation as it would be a perfect argument to ban them.

Every politician speaks out of both side of their mouth.

FrancieBrady

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

SF speak out of both sides of their mouths, depending on which side of the Border they are on.

This has a lot to do with the 12th I think. I hope it doesn't escalate into anything bad.

Such a fk up of a Province. It will never really go away anyway.

Here would be just as bad if somebody had decided to make a political football out of the Garda funeral. Somebody in the commentariat pointed out today that the reason nobody did was because of the funeral aspect of it...latitude was given to the obvious transgressions out of human decency.

Not so when it comes to SF.

joeguevara

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Here would be just as bad if somebody had decided to make a political football out of the Garda funeral. Somebody in the commentariat pointed out today that the reason nobody did was because of the funeral aspect of it...latitude was given to the obvious transgressions out of human decency.

Not so when it comes to SF.

I’m not sure if it happened here, I didn’t see any, but was widespread photos on social media from many people being disgusting by abusing members of Garda Síochána not socially distancing as they consoled each other with comments invariably of the them ‘why can they do be in a crowd and we can’t ‘insert something here’. Vile.

hatrickpatrick

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

SF speak out of both sides of their mouths, depending on which side of the Border they are on.

This has a lot to do with the 12th I think. I hope it doesn't escalate into anything bad.

Such a fk up of a Province. It will never really go away anyway.

Leaving aside the idiotic snipes against an entire region, I actually have a lot of hope that it will go away eventually, the division that is. I think it'll take a catastrophe of some kind to do it though, another economic meltdown or a messy Brexit for example. But I've been saying for a long time that I reckon the day will come sooner rather than later when people who are a few generations removed from the heat of the conflict will base their decisions about who to vote for on regular political issues as opposed to the status issue. For example, to take one recent issue, 56% of the people in Northern Ireland voted to remain within the EU. On the other hand, 49% of the population is Unionist. That means that, even if you assume that no Nationalists voted to leave (which seems unlikely, these things don't break down entirely along partisan lines most of the time) it means that 7% of Unionists at the very least are people who voted to remain within the EU.

Why is this relevant? Because my suggestion here is that surely, once the conflict isn't so raw in peoples' memories and too many generations have passed for direct bitterness over witnessing the violence or being directly related to a victim, issues such as this will start to matter more. The DUP have done everything they possibly can to f*ck up the negotiations, torpedo any deal that's been put on the table, and essentially push the UK with Northern Ireland in it into a hard Brexit. That would bring all kinds of horrible consequences for people living in NI, regardless of their opinion on the status issue.

Surely in that context, if the conflict was another decade or two removed from the present, at least some people who generally vote Unionist would say "You know what? I don't like the Nationalist agenda and I'm still very much in favour of remaining in the UK, but FFS I'd rather not see my employment prospects plummet because companies have to flee a hard Brexit UK, or see violence return to the province because of border checks. So if the Unionist parties are going to push for a hard Brexit and I don't want one, I'll vote for someone from the other side of the aisle because an orderly Brexit is more important to me than whether or not this province counts as British or Irish".

Maybe this is just ignorance on my part, many people have told me that I'm underestimating the bitterness of NI, but I feel it has to happen eventually. How many generations can such bitterness actually overcome everyday policy issues? In the Republic, it took almost 100 years, but we've finally moved away from the civil war dichotomy and towards a politics based more on ideology. In NI, at some point, surely people are going to care more about policy than regional status, and they'll vote for the politicians who are going to sort out actual governmental issues - healthcare, housing, education, employment, all the things an "ordinary" or non-conflict torn region would usually place at the top of their list of political priorities - even if those politicians happen to disagree with them about the status question.

And given the amount of havoc in the world at the moment, I really don't think it'll take as long as it took the Republic to move on from conflict-based political divisions. The world is going through a period of extreme turmoil and rapid socio-political upheaval, and I just question whether a legacy issue like a now-finished conflict can override the issues which are currently sweeping the world and driving the aforementioned upheaval everywhere else.

Bishop of hope

It seems the whole graveside trimmings, after storeys funeral were unnecessary too.
Of this is true then there was no need for the huge parade that led to a lot of controversy at all.

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/late-ira-chief-storey-taken-for-cremation-after-graveside-orations-39336304.html

Bishop of hope

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Leaving aside the idiotic snipes against an entire region, I actually have a lot of hope that it will go away eventually, the division that is. I think it'll take a catastrophe of some kind to do it though, another economic meltdown or a messy Brexit for example. But I've been saying for a long time that I reckon the day will come sooner rather than later when people who are a few generations removed from the heat of the conflict will base their decisions about who to vote for on regular political issues as opposed to the status issue. For example, to take one recent issue, 56% of the people in Northern Ireland voted to remain within the EU. On the other hand, 49% of the population is Unionist. That means that, even if you assume that no Nationalists voted to leave (which seems unlikely, these things don't break down entirely along partisan lines most of the time) it means that 7% of Unionists at the very least are people who voted to remain within the EU.


Surely in that context, if the conflict was another decade or two removed from the present,

Maybe this is just ignorance on my part, many people have told me that I'm underestimating the bitterness of NI,

And given the amount of havoc in the world at the moment, I really don't think it'll take as long as it took the Republic to move on from conflict-based political divisions. The world is going through a period of extreme turmoil and rapid socio-political upheaval, and I just question whether a legacy issue like a now-finished conflict can override the issues which are currently sweeping the world and driving the aforementioned upheaval everywhere else.

I wasn't going to bother reading this because of the length of it, but changed my mind because it's a wet day.
If you're equating the brexit vote to a UI vote I'd say you're mistaken.
If you look at the events around Storeys funeral and then came up with your bag of wind post you didn't put much thought into it did you.
One party at least still driving division isn't there.
Tuesdays charade of a semi state funeral shows up SFs contempt for all citizens of northern Ireland who don't believe in their dictum, not just loyalists, but nationalists too.

FrancieBrady

Bishop of hope wrote: »

It seems the whole graveside trimmings, after storeys funeral were unnecessary too.
Of this is true then there was no need for the huge parade that led to a lot of controversy at all.

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/late-ira-chief-storey-taken-for-cremation-after-graveside-orations-39336304.html

Never mind the funeral of Garda Horkan, was there a single funeral during the pandemic were people did not line routes to pay respects?

None of that was 'necessary' either strictly speaking.
It was the funeral of a key figure in republican circles in the city, there was always going to be a huge turnout.

Do you attempt to manage that or do you not prepare for it?

markodaly

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

.

Again, I would never justify the killing of civilians and I've always lamented the fact that this came to define the IRA through their own incredibly immoral decision making. But...

.

Well, you just did try and justify the killing of civilians even after you preamble stating you wouldn't.

People go on mad leaps of faith when trying to justify the PIRA campaign of wanton bombings and murder. The circumstances around the repression of Catholics by the majority Unionist power brokers is well known, and I would never defend the cesspit of a state that existed then.

However, and this is the big one, that does not give one a carte blanche to murder people to achieve a political aim, because that is what the PIRA were fighting for. People like John Hume who grew up in the Bogside, and fought his entire life for civil rights, didn't see the need to pick up an AK-47 or plant a bomb. In fact the vast vast vast majority of Nationalists or Catholics didn't, so why do we excuse it when others do?

People seem to think that the Provos were fighting for equal rights or something, when in fact, they were fighting a guerilla terrorist campaign to get rid of the British and end partition. This is a public record. This was the genesis of the campaign. This is just a fact.

Compromise will not solve our countries problems
Compromise never achieved anything.
Compromise will never achieve anything

SEAN MACSTIOFAIN - PIRA Cheif of Staff - 1972

Civil rights became the selling point amidst lots of revisionism when the peace process started, telling their supporters that the war was for equal rights all along and an Assembly that has no real power anyway. So what was the point of the long war?.... exactly, there was no point to it really, as its achievements are negligible and could have been achieved through peaceful means.

Bonniedog

Adams pretending that IRA was adjunct to NICRA and stat he was at NICRA executive meetings in late 60s, before 1969.

No one who was actually there remembers him being there!

zoobizoo

Bonniedog wrote: »

ANo one who was actually there remembers him being there!

Sure he doesn't even remember being in the IRA!

FrancieBrady

Bonniedog wrote: »

Adams pretending that IRA was adjunct to NICRA and stat he was at NICRA executive meetings in late 60s, before 1969.

No one who was actually there remembers him being there!

I have no idea if Adams was there or not, but the IRA's Billy McMillen was one of those who drew up NICRA's constitution and signed it.

In 1967, McMillen was involved in the formation of the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association and was a member of a three-man committee which drew up the Association's constitution.

Get the history straight Bonnie and proceed from there.

blanch152

The media coverage continues, despite the best efforts of Sinn Fein to play this incident down.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/storey-funeral-a-reminder-that-ira-army-council-runs-sinn-f%C3%A9in-1.4294619

"The Bobby Storey funeral is another reminder not simply that the IRA has not gone away but that its army council is the ruling body of Sinn Féin.......the more sinister feature of the event was the paramilitary trappings that put the true nature of the republican movement on open display."

And for those comparing funerals.....

"As for social distancing, the behaviour of mourners at the Storey funeral was simply another demonstration by republicans of their belief that they are above the law. It was in marked contrast to the muted dignity at the recent State funeral for the murdered Garda Det Colm Horkan.

President Higgins and Taoiseach Leo Varadkar were among the many mourners unable to attend because of social distancing guidelines. Instead the President paid remote tribute to the killed garda by sounding the peace bell at Áras an Uachtaráin as the funeral started, while Varadkar went to Garda headquarters to show his solidarity by observing a minute’s silence in company with members of the force."

The article finishes with a chilling conclusion

"Many difficult decisions will have to be made in the coming months and the Government will have to find a way of explaining them to the public in an honest and coherent fashion. If it can’t do that the country may well find itself being ruled by the IRA army council after the next election."

Exit before posters attack the author of the article rather than addressing the points made.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

The media coverage continues, despite the best efforts of Sinn Fein to play this incident down.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/storey-funeral-a-reminder-that-ira-army-council-runs-sinn-f%C3%A9in-1.4294619

"The Bobby Storey funeral is another reminder not simply that the IRA has not gone away but that its army council is the ruling body of Sinn Féin.......the more sinister feature of the event was the paramilitary trappings that put the true nature of the republican movement on open display."

And for those comparing funerals.....

"As for social distancing, the behaviour of mourners at the Storey funeral was simply another demonstration by republicans of their belief that they are above the law. It was in marked contrast to the muted dignity at the recent State funeral for the murdered Garda Det Colm Horkan.

President Higgins and Taoiseach Leo Varadkar were among the many mourners unable to attend because of social distancing guidelines. Instead the President paid remote tribute to the killed garda by sounding the peace bell at Áras an Uachtaráin as the funeral started, while Varadkar went to Garda headquarters to show his solidarity by observing a minute’s silence in company with members of the force."

The article finishes with a chilling conclusion

"Many difficult decisions will have to be made in the coming months and the Government will have to find a way of explaining them to the public in an honest and coherent fashion. If it can’t do that the country may well find itself being ruled by the IRA army council after the next election."

Exit before posters attack the author of the article rather than addressing the points made.

Looking at the funeral, what was remarkable to me was the lack of paramilitary trappings.
Had this been an IRA funeral there would have been significantly more.

Is the reporter not able to open his eyes?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Looking at the funeral, what was remarkable to me was the lack of paramilitary trappings.
Had this been an IRA funeral there would have been significantly more.

Is the reporter not able to open his eyes?

Don't know about that, was struck myself by the turnout from the whiteshirts in paramilitary type formation.