Is it just me or have SF vanished?

FrancieBrady

Truthvader wrote: »

You're beyond help Francie. The likes of Bobby Storey, swaggering about the place, Pearse McAuley, the killers of Paul Quinn, Joe Rafferty, Robert McCartney just couldn't stop themselves no matter what they were given.

That is part of my 'narrative'. Yes there were thuggish elements that attached themselves to the IRA. Given the scale of the conflict/war, only the deluded would try and represent sporadic incidents involving former members as indicative of the whole membership...IT SIMPLY DOESN'T stack up. You don't have to be a symapthiser or supporter to see that. Just open your eyes.

Plus all the local thugs still running their little empires in ****hole estates. As before all this crap about "defending" anything does not stand up against what they actually did unless of course in the twisted Sinn Fein mind the thousands of random bombings and murders were "regrettable" but part of a "war",

Not true Francie.

Why not take a break and pop down to the Guards and report all that criminality in your area?

Have you reported what you seem to have evidence for? (but curiously haven't presented)

Let's see your data for all these 'estates' and 'little empires' then?
Remember we are in the real world here and not some film studio were you are pitching a script with Pierce Brosnan faking a wee Belfast accent.

JohnnyFlash

blanch152 wrote: »

Fully agree, Adams is the most chilling individual I have ever met. There is just something wrong about him.

Never had the pleasure myself, but know a good few people who would have met him when he was a TD.

They all said there was something deeply off about him. He gives people the creeps when they meet him in person.

blanch152

If you want a clear example of the lack of credibility of Sinn Fein as a democratic party, this is it:

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2020/0714/1153193-cowen-sinn-fein/

"Speaking on RTÉ's Today with Sarah McInerney programme, Ms McDonald said that it is a question of public confidence as "we are in the extraordinary situation that a government is contradicting a garda report and a garda file" which is not a sustainable position."

There is no doubt that Cowen has questions to answer, and let's hope he does answer them, but I laughed out loud when I read this report. How can anyone take Mary-Lou seriously when she says this?

There is a PSNI report on file which says that the IRA still control Sinn Fein but Michelle O'Neill and Mary-Lou deny this and contradict it. So while she is complaining about Cowen in the above terms, the exact same scenario has been playing out up North for the last few years!!! Hypocrisy of the highest order from Sinn Fein as usual!!




P.S. Will a partitionist be along shortly to tell me it is different in the North?

Truthvader

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That is part of my 'narrative'. Yes there were thuggish elements that attached themselves to the IRA. Given the scale of the conflict/war, only the deluded would try and represent sporadic incidents involving former members as indicative of the whole membership...IT SIMPLY DOESN'T stack up. You don't have to be a symapthiser or supporter to see that. Just open your eyes.




Have you reported what you seem to have evidence for? (but curiously haven't presented)

Let's see your data for all these 'estates' and 'little empires' then?
Remember we are in the real world here and not some film studio were you are pitching a script with Pierce Brosnan faking a wee Belfast accent.

And round and round we go.

Anyone who can shoot an unarmed man in front of his family or leave bomb in a pub full of people he does not even know or hold a child down to break his leg is not defending anyone and is not a a normal person. They are a sociopathic thug.

By agreeing not to indulge in this behaviour they do not become peacemakers or statesmen. They remain criminal thugs - just ones who have been bought off. Whether they are bought off by a United Ireland, freedom from prosecution, the trappings of power, control of their area, respect or the collection of a drug debt is immaterial.

As before you lack the capacity to understand that - ever ready to defend or "whatabout" this kind of subhuman behaviour. As do you pals in Sinn Fein. That is why they are not acceptable partners for normal political parties. At base it is an inability to know what is acceptable behaviour. It seems it will never be possible to move you beyond this obstacle

UDAWINNER

blanch152 wrote: »

Fully agree, Adams is the most chilling individual I have ever met. There is just something wrong about him.

did you burn many posters the other night

FrancieBrady

Truthvader wrote: »

And round and round we go.

Anyone who can shoot an unarmed man in front of his family or leave bomb in a pub full of people he does not even know or hold a child down to break his leg is not defending anyone and is not a a normal person. They are a sociopathic thug.

By agreeing not to indulge in this behaviour they do not become peacemakers or statesmen. They remain criminal thugs - just ones who have been bought off. Whether they are bought off by a United Ireland, freedom from prosecution, the trappings of power, control of their area, respect or the collection of a drug debt is immaterial.

As before you lack the capacity to understand that - ever ready to defend or "whatabout" this kind of subhuman behaviour. As do you pals in Sinn Fein. That is why they are not acceptable partners for normal political parties. At base it is an inability to know what is acceptable behaviour. It seems it will never be possible to move you beyond this obstacle

Would you agree that dropping bombs from 10,000 feet is subhuman?

I agree with you here, war and conflict by it's very nature brings people to do subhuman things from the beginning of time.
Nobody is trying to sanitise that.

But people end wars and conflict too and have done since the start of time as our forbears did before us here on this very island.

There is no excusing it or justifying but it happens and will happen again.

You have been asked to evidence some of the generalisations you have made but keep diverting away to sanctimonious lecturing.

We can but guess why. And it isn't hard to come up with answers as to why.

UDAWINNER

can't wait to see the faux outrage at burning tricolours and bobby storey posters on top of bonfires. Won't be any investigations in to that. One sided debate

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

What psni file.....your pedelling conspiracy theories as political fact mate

It's a PSNI report compiled by Drew Harris himself in conjunction with MI5 that states:

The PSNI said its analysis of the link between the IRA and Sinn Féin remains the same as that laid out in a joint assessment conducted with MI5 in 2015. In that report, a number of definitive statements were made about the IRA including that its structures remained “in a much reduced form”, that it is not actively recruiting and that its leadership is committed to achieving a united Ireland through peaceful means.

Crucially, it stated it was the view of IRA members that the army council oversees both the IRA and Sinn Féin “with an overarching strategy”. This strategy has “a wholly political focus”, it added.

Which is exactly what the membership of the IRA was expected to do -
'Committed to achieving a UI through peaceful means.'

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It's a PSNI report compiled by Drew Harris himself in conjunction with MI5 that states:


Which is exactly what the membership of the IRA was expected to do -
'Committed to achieving a UI through peaceful means.'

Whole thing is a joke.....

like fair play to all who have bought into the conspiracy (seems v.popular among boards users,and we all need mad sh1t to believe in,it seems!),but anyone who step away from the paint fumes for a min dont buy the ira army council meeting up to decide policy on social housing and solving healthcare issues.....


Simply deosnt stand upto scrutiny

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

The long-term effects of Adams' behaviour still linger.

West Belfast is possibly the most deprived area in North-West Europe (possibly the most depraved too) mainly due to the mafia-like grip which Sinn Fein and the IRA maintained over it for the last 50 years. In many ways, it is like mafia enclaves in southern Italy - miserable for the general population, but the few at the top of the criminal pile profiting from that misery, while the State is unable to gain much influence over the area to improve the peoples' lives. The lavish funeral of Bobby Storey is just one example of this wealth available to the few.

Yet, a West Belfast catholic girls' school is No. 2 in the A-Level League table in Northern Ireland. (Just for the record, 9 of the top 10 are catholic schools). Education is a good way out of poverty and improving people's lives.
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/revealed-a-level-league-table-for-northern-ireland-catholic-schools-dominate-top-positions-37935503.html

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

If you want a clear example of the lack of credibility of Sinn Fein as a democratic party, this is it:

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2020/0714/1153193-cowen-sinn-fein/

"Speaking on RTÉ's Today with Sarah McInerney programme, Ms McDonald said that it is a question of public confidence as "we are in the extraordinary situation that a government is contradicting a garda report and a garda file" which is not a sustainable position."

There is no doubt that Cowen has questions to answer, and let's hope he does answer them, but I laughed out loud when I read this report. How can anyone take Mary-Lou seriously when she says this?

There is a PSNI report on file which says that the IRA still control Sinn Fein but Michelle O'Neill and Mary-Lou deny this and contradict it. So while she is complaining about Cowen in the above terms, the exact same scenario has been playing out up North for the last few years!!! Hypocrisy of the highest order from Sinn Fein as usual!!

P.S. Will a partitionist be along shortly to tell me it is different in the North?

When are you going to stop peddling this lie? I corrected you on it yesterday and linked what the report actually said.

nigeldaniel

Sf sure do not like tricky questions so as per usual they bully and harass their way out of them.

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

Whole thing is a joke.....

like fair play to all who have bought into the conspiracy (seems v.popular among boards users,and we all need mad sh1t to believe in,it seems!),but anyone who step away from the paint fumes for a min dont buy the ira army council meeting up to decide policy on social housing and solving healthcare issues.....


Simply deosnt stand upto scrutiny

You can see it being used here as a handy crutch for those who want to exclude SF.

They have invented some nebulous expectation they had that the men and women of the IRA were going to disappear into the ether after the GFA when the reality was they were going to get involved in democratic politics.

Which is what they did. As the PSNI report says.

blanch152

jm08 wrote: »

Yet, a West Belfast catholic girls' school is No. 2 in the A-Level League table in Northern Ireland. (Just for the record, 9 of the top 10 are catholic schools). Education is a good way out of poverty and improving people's lives.
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/revealed-a-level-league-table-for-northern-ireland-catholic-schools-dominate-top-positions-37935503.html

I wouldn't be making any kind of a case about the Northern Ireland education system. This is a Ministry that Sinn Fein have held from 1999 to 2016. As an example of their failures in government, you couldn't have picked a better one.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/john-fitzgerald-north-s-poor-education-system-a-recipe-for-failure-1.3871711

"This outdated selective system of secondary education has resulted in Northern Ireland having the lowest human capital of any UK region. It has a high proportion of early school leavers, and the proportion of thirtysomethings with a degree, at 35 per cent, is twenty percentage points lower than in Scotland or Ireland."

https://sluggerotoole.com/2019/10/19/a-reflection-on-the-education-system-in-northern-ireland/

"Segregation by religion is a form of ‘tribalism’, an attempt at maintaining the purity of any group, keeping it apart from the ‘other’. This has disconcerting nuances and echoes of racism and eugenics, and is reflected in the small numbers of exogamous or ‘mixed’ marriages and partnerships."

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/jul/14/is-the-curriculum-dividing-northern-irelands-schools-along-troubles-lines

This is a really good article explaining the effect of segregated schools on maintaining division.

Institutionalised segregation in education in Northern Ireland is now on a par with the situations that prevailed in South Africa and the southern States of the US, albeit on sectarian rather than racist grounds. Performing well in such a context is not a compliment.

blanch152

jm08 wrote: »

When are you going to stop peddling this lie? I corrected you on it yesterday and linked what the report actually said.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/what-evidence-is-there-that-the-ira-still-controls-sinn-f%C3%A9in-1.4182679

"That day The Irish Times had reported the PSNI still believes the IRA Provisional Army Council oversees both the IRA and Sinn Féin. Harris was asked if the Garda agreed with this view and replied that it did.

Although many questioned the timing of his views, they do not differ from those expressed by senior individual gardaí in recent years."

I stand with Drew Harris on this.

Truthvader

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Would you agree that dropping bombs from 10,000 feet is subhuman?

I agree with you here, war and conflict by it's very nature brings people to do subhuman things from the beginning of time.
Nobody is trying to sanitise that.

But people end wars and conflict too and have done since the start of time as our forbears did before us here on this very island.

There is no excusing it or justifying but it happens and will happen again.

You have been asked to evidence some of the generalisations you have made but keep diverting away to sanctimonious lecturing.

We can but guess why. And it isn't hard to come up with answers as to why.

No Francie even if you find someone else who dropped a bomb from 10,000 on someone it still doesn't make alright.

Crime and thuggery is not war.

As to evidence do you really want a list of every dead farmer, teenage boy, pub, shop and dancehall bombed?

And in answer to the usual loons who think anyone not down with the "good republican" narrative is in MI5 or an Orangeman, I view the Shankill Butchers, Loyalists gangs and Para's etc in precisely the same light. They don't get much attention here as they don't have people like yourself justifying, glorying and promoting them. Nor have they assembled a collection of greedy, venal charlatans and dimwitted morons to front a political party looking for my vote actively promoting the same sick lies and justifications as yourself

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/what-evidence-is-there-that-the-ira-still-controls-sinn-f%C3%A9in-1.4182679

"That day The Irish Times had reported the PSNI still believes the IRA Provisional Army Council oversees both the IRA and Sinn Féin. Harris was asked if the Garda agreed with this view and replied that it did.

Although many questioned the timing of his views, they do not differ from those expressed by senior individual gardaí in recent years."

I stand with Drew Harris on this.

Which is:


In a 2015 report for the UK government, the PSNI and MI5 concluded IRA members believed the army council “oversees” both the IRA and Sinn Féin with an “overarching strategy”, based on current intelligence, historical materials and analysis. The PSNI has said recently that the assessment remains true.

“We judge this strategy has a wholly political focus,” the 2015 report said. IRA members “have been directed to actively support Sinn Féin within the community including activity like electioneering and leafleting”.



Your link to the Irish Times concludes:

There is one overarching conclusion reached by every report published in the last 15 years – the IRA’s military campaign is a thing of the past and is highly unlikely to return.

What is your problem with this? Would you prefer if they didn't use a political route?

Truthvader

Deleted User wrote: »

Whole thing is a joke.....

like fair play to all who have bought into the conspiracy (seems v.popular among boards users,and we all need mad sh1t to believe in,it seems!),but anyone who step away from the paint fumes for a min dont buy the ira army council meeting up to decide policy on social housing and solving healthcare issues.....


Simply deosnt stand upto scrutiny

Actually the Sinn Fein social housing and healthcare policies sound exactly like they were dreamt up in a cattle shed by Slab and the lads. They might have got O'Broin to help spell the big words later. Apparently the Sinn Fein fanbase regard him as an "intellectual" because he went to Secondary School

maccored

Truthvader wrote: »

Actually the Sinn Fein social housing and healthcare policies sound exactly like they were dreamt up in a cattle shed by Slab and the lads. They might have got O'Broin to help spell the big words later. Apparently the Sinn Fein fanbase regard him as an "intellectual" because he went to Secondary School

dont take up comedy

FrancieBrady

Truthvader wrote: »

No Francie even if you find someone else who dropped a bomb from 10,000 on someone it still doesn't make alright.

Crime and thuggery is not war.

Nobody said, that it was 'alright'. I have said it was all wrong.

The distinction between what you see as justifiable 'war' and 'Crime and thuggery' is moot. It depends on if you are on the giving or receiving end. A significant part of the community on this island saw the actions of the BA as crime and thuggery at various times in recent history.

As to evidence do you really want a list of every dead farmer, teenage boy, pub, shop and dancehall bombed?

And in answer to the usual loons who think anyone not down with the "good republican" narrative is in MI5 or an Orangeman, I view the Shankill Butchers, Loyalists gangs and Para's etc in precisely the same light. They don't get much attention here as they don't have people like yourself justifying, glorying and promoting them. Nor have they assembled a collection of greedy, venal charlatans and dimwitted morons to front a political party looking for my vote actively promoting the same sick lies and justifications as yourself

No, not evidence of the tragic deaths during the conflict...anyone can 'select' victims. They do it here all the time.

What I want 'evidence of' is this huge problem you keep reverting to, of IRA men controlling estates and 'tribal empires'.
Give us the data you have to show this is the problem you claim it is.

What I know of it is that these are very localised problems occurring in a small number of areas. Areas that are still suffering the consequences of a divisive partition.

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

I wouldn't be making any kind of a case about the Northern Ireland education system. This is a Ministry that Sinn Fein have held from 1999 to 2016. As an example of their failures in government, you couldn't have picked a better one.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/john-fitzgerald-north-s-poor-education-system-a-recipe-for-failure-1.3871711

"This outdated selective system of secondary education has resulted in Northern Ireland having the lowest human capital of any UK region. It has a high proportion of early school leavers, and the proportion of thirtysomethings with a degree, at 35 per cent, is twenty percentage points lower than in Scotland or Ireland."

https://sluggerotoole.com/2019/10/19/a-reflection-on-the-education-system-in-northern-ireland/

"Segregation by religion is a form of ‘tribalism’, an attempt at maintaining the purity of any group, keeping it apart from the ‘other’. This has disconcerting nuances and echoes of racism and eugenics, and is reflected in the small numbers of exogamous or ‘mixed’ marriages and partnerships."

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/jul/14/is-the-curriculum-dividing-northern-irelands-schools-along-troubles-lines

This is a really good article explaining the effect of segregated schools on maintaining division.

Institutionalised segregation in education in Northern Ireland is now on a par with the situations that prevailed in South Africa and the southern States of the US, albeit on sectarian rather than racist grounds. Performing well in such a context is not a compliment.

Bearing in mind that 9 out of the 10 top rated schools are catholic ethos schools, is it any wonder catholics don't want to send their children to state schools which underperform.


The real problem seems to be the underachievement of young protestant working class men - a possible explanation is that in the past they would have followed their fathers, grandfathers into the H&W etc. and not have to worry about needing an education to get a job, whereas catholics knew that the only way out of poverty was through education. It can be best summed up with how loyalist prisoners came out of the Maze with tats, with republican prisoners coming out with law degrees.

Truthvader

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody said, that it was 'alright'. I have said it was all wrong.

The distinction between what you see as justifiable 'war' and 'Crime and thuggery' is moot. It depends on if you are on the giving or receiving end. A significant part of the community on this island saw the actions of the BA as crime and thuggery at various times in recent history.



No, not evidence of the tragic deaths during the conflict...anyone can 'select' victims. They do it here all the time.

What I want 'evidence of' is this huge problem you keep reverting to, of IRA men controlling estates and 'tribal empires'.
Give us the data you have to show this is the problem you claim it is.


What I know of it is that these are very localised problems occurring in a small number of areas. Areas that are still suffering the consequences of a divisive partition.

Great! so you're off to the Guards to report all that rampant crime in your area so. No IRA men to worry about.

"Divisive partition" didn't murder anyone

FrancieBrady

Truthvader wrote: »

Great! so you're off to the Guards to report all that rampant crime in your area so. No IRA men to worry about.

"Divisive partition" didn't murder anyone

So even if somebody puts the facts in front of you..(the timeline etc) you just ignore them and revert to the invented narrative.
Excellent.

You have no idea what has been reported to Gardai yet again prefer to invent.

And you haven't produced a scintilla of data to back up the claim of 'tribal empires' being anything other than localised problems.

Not hard to see who's 'argument' is in bother here.

Another question for yoy, if 'divisive partition' did not cause the conflict/war, what did?
Wete these people born as sociopaths and psychopaths?

blanch152

jm08 wrote: »

Bearing in mind that 9 out of the 10 top rated schools are catholic ethos schools, is it any wonder catholics don't want to send their children to state schools which underperform.


The real problem seems to be the underachievement of young protestant working class men - a possible explanation is that in the past they would have followed their fathers, grandfathers into the H&W etc. and not have to worry about needing an education to get a job, whereas catholics knew that the only way out of poverty was through education. It can be best summed up with how loyalist prisoners came out of the Maze with tats, with republican prisoners coming out with law degrees.

The underlying sectarian nature of this post shouldn't surprise me but when it comes to education, it sometimes seems that such labelling is acceptable.

"Boys are lazy, girls work hard"
"Caucasians have a higher IQ"
"Loyalists got tats, republicans law degrees"

Lazy explanations for discriminatory arrangements. Non-denominational multi-sex schools are the only fair way forward.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Although partitionists and Unionists (actually to a lesser degree than partitionists) try desperately to do is portray a situation were the IRA had no support.
The fact of the matter is that they did.

The New IRA who murdered Lyra Mckee have some support.
The IRA guys who planted the Omagh bomb had some support.
The Provo's had some support.

However, none of them had a mandate or the support of the majority of the nationalist community. Its a fact. Get over it.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

The New IRA who murdered Lyra Mckee have some support.
The IRA guys who planted the Omagh bomb had some support.
The Provo's had some support.

However, none of them had a mandate or the support of the majority of the nationalist community. Its a fact. Get over it.

Name me a group that sought and got a mandate before commencing subversive activity against what they seen as an oppressive state.
Anywhere in the world will do.

markodaly

Truthvader wrote: »

Poor Francie, so invested in the false Sinn Fein narrative and determined to justify anything. I can only repeat random murder is not "defending" anyone, attacking innocent people is not OK. You don't seem to know this and have swallowed the big ball of **** whole so that in your head if something bad happens to you it is justifiable to murder or injure any passing man woman or child. Its just not Francie and if you don't get this no-one can help you

I have asked this about 20 times, but how did the PIRA defend its community by killing 12-year-old Tim Parry, and 3-year-old Toddler, Johnathan Ball who was in Warrington shopping for a Mother's Day card.

Anyone?

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Name me a group that sought and got a mandate before commencing subversive activity against what they seen as an oppressive state.
Anywhere in the world will do.

You could look closer to home. The IRA of 1918-1921. See the election of 1918 as reference.
But, yea. Whatabout away.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

You could look closer to home. The IRA of 1918-1921. See the election of 1918 as reference.
But, yea. Whatabout away.

The election that was ignored?

And 'whatabout' what happened before 1918?

Keep on keeping on with the nonsense that it was possible for anyone to say who had a 'mandate'.

The British eventually after 40 years of violence agreed that an agreement had to be put in place to correct the wrongs that were being fought against. An agreement that the majority Unionist party STILL opposes before you go on yet another excusatory diverts -'that was all available in Sunningdale'

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

I have asked this about 20 times, but how did the PIRA defend its community by killing 12-year-old Tim Parry, and 3-year-old Toddler, Johnathan Ball who was in Warrington shopping for a Mother's Day card.

Anyone?

Out come the selective, emotive victims again.
You know as well as anybody that the intention was not to kill two boys.

Two boys died tragically though that didn't have to, like all the other victims, including 18 children killed by BA forces as the conflict ramped up.