Is it just me or have SF vanished?

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Out come the selective, emotive victims again.
You know as well as anybody that the intention was not to kill two boys.

Then why was there a bomb left to go off in a crowded English town on a Saturday afternoon, busy with shoppers?
But I see you didn't answer my question.

How did the murder of those 2 boys 'defend' Nationalists in the North....??

Adam9213

Truthvader wrote: »

"The BA was sent in by a Labour government to protect Catholic areas"

Well thanks for that Francie. Finally we agree on something. Also agree on the attacks by Protestants on the Civil Rights marches and the history of beatings and burnings. And the failure of the Unionist State to protect Catholics and the general ****tiness of everything

Where we disagree is that you are taken in by the lie that the Provos protected anyone or provided anything but misery. It would have been fully understandable if the Provos had protected catholic areas but even if they wanted to they did not have the weapons at the beginning. Truth is that Gerry and every other closet sociopath took the opportunity to indulge their most base instincts in pursuit of power. Regardless of how unfair the state was it does not justify one murder of an unarmed man or one bomb in a random pub. As above the defence of an area under attack would have been acceptable but all the Provos managed was to gain control of their own little tribal empires after a miserable thirty years devoted to random thuggery

I've posted this numerous times and you've ignored it and still cite your claim that they "never" defended anyone.

The battle of St Matthews one of the most popular ones because it was when the PIRA had even started attacking tand before there was a guerilla war, it was their first major action.

As the situation worsened, Catholic residents feared that the gathering crowds of loyalists would attempt to invade the Short Strand and burn them from their homes. Local IRA members retrieved weapons from arms dumps. A young resident, Jim Gibney, recalled: "I saw neighbours, people I knew, coming down the street carrying rifles. I was just dumbstruck by this experience. I'd never seen such a thing before".

British soldiers eventually arrived in armoured vehicles and cordoned off the roads around the Short Strand, which denied the IRA "any hope of reinforcement".
A small group of IRA members and members of the Citizens' Defence Committee took up positions in the church grounds and in adjoining streets. The IRA members were armed with M1 carbines successfully preventing the incursion of loyalist mobs and militants.

This action brought a great deal of support for armed conflict on one hand you had the peaceful SDLP who after the shooting began, Stormont MP Paddy Kennedy went with Short Strand residents to the local RUC base cried and demanded protection for their homes which never came, and on the other hand you had the IRA who risked their lives some of whom were killed trying to protect the local people, ask the families who were shaking and scared in their homes do they think the IRA men who died were terrorists I doubt they'll say they were.

https://en.m.wikipedia...le_of_St_Matthew%27s

JohnnyFlash

markodaly wrote: »

Then why was there a bomb left to go off in a crowded English town on a Saturday afternoon, busy with shoppers?
But I see you didn't answer my question.

How did the murder of those 2 boys 'defend' Nationalists in the North....??

Tragedy, deep regret, truth and reconciliation etc etc.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Then why was there a bomb left to go off in a crowded English town on a Saturday afternoon, busy with shoppers?
But I see you didn't answer my question.

How did the murder of those 2 boys 'defend' Nationalists in the North....??

This isn't rocket science really Mark.
The goal was to force a British withdrawal because the British protection of the sectarian state was what was causing the problems for nationalists. A terror campaign in England was seen as the way to do that. Defence turned into attack...it isn't exactly unique in that regard.

You can think of that as right or wrong, who cares at this stage. The goal of those who REALLY signed up to the GFA is to make sure it never happens again. You can accept that without ever supporting any of the sides who turned to violence...and they all did.

Adam9213

markodaly wrote: »

I have asked this about 20 times, but how did the PIRA defend its community by killing 12-year-old Tim Parry, and 3-year-old Toddler, Johnathan Ball who was in Warrington shopping for a Mother's Day card.

Anyone?

You can bring up civilian deaths from any side in any conflict and say what you said "how did they defend their communities killing these people" and use that to discredit them, I can bring up the Ballymurphy massacre where 11 innocent men and women were killed one of them died of a heart attack from a mock execution by soldiers, or I could bring up the Springhill massacre where 5 people were killed including 13 year old Margaret Gargan.

The IRA were exploding hundreds of bombs on economic targets every year almost all of which were without casualties.

This one went horribly wrong and two innocent people were tragically killed.

A piece on BBC North West's Inside Out programme in September 2013 speculated that the bombing may have been the work of a "rogue" IRA unit, which was supported by the IRA but operated independently and who used operatives who were from England to avoid suspicion.The programme also examined a possible link between the attack and British leftist political group Red Action, though nothing was ever proven.

Adam9213

FrancieBrady wrote: »

This isn't rocket science really Mark.
The goal was to force a British withdrawal because the British protection of the sectarian state was what was causing the problems for nationalists. A terror campaign in England was seen as the way to do that. Defence turned into attack...it isn't exactly unique in that regard.

You can think of that as right or wrong, who cares at this stage. The goal of those who REALLY signed up to the GFA is to make sure it never happens again. You can accept that without ever supporting any of the sides who turned to violence...and they all did.

The bombs are never meant to kill people but of course planting hundreds of bombs on economic targets every year is inevitably at some point going to result in casualties at some point or another.

maccored

markodaly wrote: »

The New IRA who murdered Lyra Mckee have some support.
The IRA guys who planted the Omagh bomb had some support.
The Provo's had some support.

However, none of them had a mandate or the support of the majority of the nationalist community. Its a fact. Get over it.

how would you know if they did or not markodaly?

Adam9213

maccored wrote: »

how would you know if they did or not markodaly?

Well they all had some kind of support but the Provos were the only ones who had real support.

Also no one supported the Omagh bomb, no one in the real IRA supported it and no one in the general public supported it, it was an incompetent accident.

The dissident republican campaign at that stage had some low level support but after the Omagh bomb it only had support similar to the support of the New IRA today.

The Omagh bomb effectively ended the dissident republican campaign.

Interested Observer

Adam9213 wrote: »

You can bring up civilian deaths from any side in any conflict and say what you said "how did they defend their communities killing these people" and use that to discredit them, I can bring up the Ballymurphy massacre where 11 innocent men and women were killed one of them died of a heart attack from a mock execution by soldiers, or I could bring up the Springhill massacre where 5 people were killed including 13 year old Margaret Gargan.

The IRA were exploding hundreds of bombs on economic targets every year almost all of which were without casualties.

This one went horribly wrong and two innocent people were tragically killed.

A piece on BBC North West's Inside Out programme in September 2013 speculated that the bombing may have been the work of a "rogue" IRA unit, which was supported by the IRA but operated independently and who used operatives who were from England to avoid suspicion.The programme also examined a possible link between the attack and British leftist political group Red Action, though nothing was ever proven.

What do you think you're achieving bringing those up exactly? Do you think you'll find a single person here who will try justify or handwave those incidents, as you're trying to do for the IRA murdering kids?

Adam9213

Interested Observer wrote: »

What do you think you're achieving bringing those up exactly? Do you think you'll find a single person here who will try justify or handwave those incidents, as you're trying to do for the IRA murdering kids?

What I'm saying is bringing up those things has no point at all, the person who posted about Warrington used that as proof that the IRA were bad which doesn't make any sense.

I wasn't excusing the killing at all he was asking what did they achieve by it so I told him it was and accident and they didn't achieve anything at all except for a stark drop in IRA support both locally and internationally and more people calling for end to the campaign.

Truthvader

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So even if somebody puts the facts in front of you..(the timeline etc) you just ignore them and revert to the invented narrative.
Excellent.

You have no idea what has been reported to Gardai yet again prefer to invent.

And you haven't produced a scintilla of data to back up the claim of 'tribal empires' being anything other than localised problems.

Not hard to see who's 'argument' is in bother here.

Another question for yoy, if 'divisive partition' did not cause the conflict/war, what did?
Wete these people born as sociopaths and psychopaths?

People deciding to kill each other

dundalkfc10

Have we nothing more to worry about, letting Americans in to roam the country, FFG not having a clue how to deal with it or have the balls to do with it.

I know what we will do have a go at SF

2020 Ireland

blanch152

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

Have we nothing more to worry about, letting Americans in to roam the country, FFG not having a clue how to deal with it or have the balls to do with it.

I know what we will do have a go at SF

2020 Ireland

There are plenty of other threads for all of that.

dundalkfc10

blanch152 wrote: »

There are plenty of other threads for all of that.

They all turn into have a go at SF threads, look at the Govt thread ffs

blanch152

Truthvader wrote: »

People deciding to kill each other

Pretty much this was the reason for the conflict. Without the IRA killing people, we would have had peace a long time ago.

Adam9213 wrote: »

Well they all had some kind of support but the Provos were the only ones who had real support.

Also no one supported the Omagh bomb, no one in the real IRA supported it and no one in the general public supported it, it was an incompetent accident.

The dissident republican campaign at that stage had some low level support but after the Omagh bomb it only had support similar to the support of the New IRA today.

The Omagh bomb effectively ended the dissident republican campaign.

An incompetent accident? Is that all you can bring yourself to say about Omagh?

Truthvader

Adam9213 wrote: »

I've posted this numerous times and you've ignored it and still cite your claim that they "never" defended anyone.

The battle of St Matthews one of the most popular ones because it was when the PIRA had even started attacking tand before there was a guerilla war, it was their first major action.

As the situation worsened, Catholic residents feared that the gathering crowds of loyalists would attempt to invade the Short Strand and burn them from their homes. Local IRA members retrieved weapons from arms dumps. A young resident, Jim Gibney, recalled: "I saw neighbours, people I knew, coming down the street carrying rifles. I was just dumbstruck by this experience. I'd never seen such a thing before".

British soldiers eventually arrived in armoured vehicles and cordoned off the roads around the Short Strand, which denied the IRA "any hope of reinforcement".
A small group of IRA members and members of the Citizens' Defence Committee took up positions in the church grounds and in adjoining streets. The IRA members were armed with M1 carbines successfully preventing the incursion of loyalist mobs and militants.

This action brought a great deal of support for armed conflict on one hand you had the peaceful SDLP who after the shooting began, Stormont MP Paddy Kennedy went with Short Strand residents to the local RUC base cried and demanded protection for their homes which never came, and on the other hand you had the IRA who risked their lives some of whom were killed trying to protect the local people, ask the families who were shaking and scared in their homes do they think the IRA men who died were terrorists I doubt they'll say they were.

https://en.m.wikipedia...le_of_St_Matthew%27s

OK this seems like a bona fide defence of an are under attack. Still doesn't justify or explain 30 years of random murder.

And as to mandate. This is nonsense. Voting for something doesn't make it right. The streets were full of people glorying Bobby Storey a couple of weeks ago but he was still a thug and a thief

maninasia

aido79 wrote: »

I think Mary Lou finds it hard to criticise how FG are handling the situation. Everything she says they should do they are either doing or have plans to do. The empty can rattles the most but for now the can remains silent...

I don't think there are many people in the country who would want a party as inexperienced as SF handling the situation right now regardless of which side of the left right spectrum they stand on.

So they did a great job did they cratering the economy and allowing tens of thousands to come in without quarantine.
Even now from America and the UK.

Bad joke.

blanch152

maninasia wrote: »

So they did a great job did they cratering the economy and allowing tens of thousands to come in without quarantine.
Even now from America and the UK.

Bad joke.

Tens of thousands to come in without quarantine?

When? How?

And what sort of a police state do you want to create?

Personal responsibility is key. I don't need the government to tell me not to go on holidays to Spain.

Truthvader

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Out come the selective, emotive victims again.
You know as well as anybody that the intention was not to kill two boys.

Two boys died tragically though that didn't have to, like all the other victims, including 18 children killed by BA forces as the conflict ramped up.

No Francie they did not die "tragically". They died because a sociopathic person decided to plant a bomb in the town where they lived in the hope that whatever damage and death the bomb caused would extort something that they wanted or had decided they were entitled to or had a mandate for

Bishop of hope

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

Have we nothing more to worry about, letting Americans in to roam the country, FFG not having a clue how to deal with it or have the balls to do with it.

I know what we will do have a go at SF

2020 Ireland

Our biggest problem are the people coming in through northern Ireland.
No quarentine rules if you just cross the border.
You can hop across for funerals and all sorts.

Truthvader

FrancieBrady wrote: »

This isn't rocket science really Mark.
The goal was to force a British withdrawal because the British protection of the sectarian state was what was causing the problems for nationalists. A terror campaign in England was seen as the way to do that. Defence turned into attack...it isn't exactly unique in that regard.

You can think of that as right or wrong, who cares at this stage. The goal of those who REALLY signed up to the GFA is to make sure it never happens again. You can accept that without ever supporting any of the sides who turned to violence...and they all did.

I care as to many normal people. As you to accurately put it "the goal was to force a British withdrawal". The means was to murder and mutilate random innocent people until you got what you wanted. Only a sick sociopathic individual behaves like this

Not a defence of anything then

Truthvader

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

Have we nothing more to worry about, letting Americans in to roam the country, FFG not having a clue how to deal with it or have the balls to do with it.

I know what we will do have a go at SF

2020 Ireland

Are they out of Prozac again?

This is a Sinn Fein thread. Create an "FFG and Goldman Sachs are letting Americans kill us" thread if you want to generate some kind of hysterical debate on the topic

jm08

Truthvader wrote: »

OK this seems like a bona fide defence of an are under attack. Still doesn't justify or explain 30 years of random murder.

And as to mandate. This is nonsense. Voting for something doesn't make it right. The streets were full of people glorying Bobby Storey a couple of weeks ago but he was still a thug and a thief

Most of it could have been avoided if unionists had agreed to power sharing with the SDLP in 1973. (Sunningdale). They violently resisted it and the British Government backed down which they always did to unionist threats.

Truthvader

Adam9213 wrote: »

You can bring up civilian deaths from any side in any conflict and say what you said "how did they defend their communities killing these people" and use that to discredit them, I can bring up the Ballymurphy massacre where 11 innocent men and women were killed one of them died of a heart attack from a mock execution by soldiers, or I could bring up the Springhill massacre where 5 people were killed including 13 year old Margaret Gargan.

The IRA were exploding hundreds of bombs on economic targets every year almost all of which were without casualties.

This one went horribly wrong and two innocent people were tragically killed.

A piece on BBC North West's Inside Out programme in September 2013 speculated that the bombing may have been the work of a "rogue" IRA unit, which was supported by the IRA but operated independently and who used operatives who were from England to avoid suspicion.The programme also examined a possible link between the attack and British leftist political group Red Action, though nothing was ever proven.

Ah the old rogue unit, the unauthorised action, the unsanctioned killing. Sure its hard to know what the lads were up to all the time. You can only fill them with explosives and hatred and hope for the best. And sure we can always just deny it. Sure one of the leaders wasn't even in the IRA. A confusing time God help us.

Truthvader

jm08 wrote: »

Most of it could have been avoided if unionists had agreed to power sharing with the SDLP in 1973. (Sunningdale). They violently resisted it and the British Government backed down which they always did to unionist threats.

This is undoubtedly true but it was not addressed or resolved or justified by bombing a pub in Birmingham full pf people on a night out

SouthWesterly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Out come the selective, emotive victims again.
You know as well as anybody that the intention was not to kill two boys.

Two boys died tragically though that didn't have to, like all the other victims, including 18 children killed by BA forces as the conflict ramped up.

Why didn't those 2 kids have to be killed?
My answer would be that terrorists planted bombs in a shopping area where people where out shopping.

Have you a different answer to that Francie?

Adam9213

Truthvader wrote: »

I care as to many normal people. As you to accurately put it "the goal was to force a British withdrawal". The means was to murder and mutilate random innocent people until you got what you wanted. Only a sick sociopathic individual behaves like this

Not a defence of anything then

Not really as only 29% of IRA victims were civilians and that figure also includes informers, politicians etc.

You seem to ignore logic in all your posts and just throw out idiotic insults, also the IRA in the 80s and 90s apparently had to abort 80% of their operations because of the risk to civilians.

blanch152

jm08 wrote: »

Most of it could have been avoided if unionists had agreed to power sharing with the SDLP in 1973. (Sunningdale). They violently resisted it and the British Government backed down which they always did to unionist threats.

The British Government didn't back down. Sunningdale allowed for power-sharing, if the parties in Northern Ireland wouldn't power-share, there was nothing the British Government could do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_Constitutional_Convention

"On the face of it, the NICC was a total failure as it did not achieve its aims of agreement between the two sides or of introducing 'rolling devolution' (gradual introduction of devolution as and when the parties involved saw fit to accept it). Nevertheless, coming as it did not long after the Conservative-sponsored Sunningdale Agreement, the NICC indicated that no British government would be prepared to re-introduce majority rule in Northern Ireland."

Peace was getting closer.....the public mood however, was changed by incidents such as Kingsmill.

SouthWesterly

Adam9213 wrote: »

Well they all had some kind of support but the Provos were the only ones who had real support.

Also no one supported the Omagh bomb, no one in the real IRA supported it and no one in the general public supported it, it was an incompetent accident.

The dissident republican campaign at that stage had some low level support but after the Omagh bomb it only had support similar to the support of the New IRA today.

The Omagh bomb effectively ended the dissident republican campaign.

How was planting 2 bombs are either end of a town with a delay on one an accident?

I look forward to seeing your answer!!

Adam9213

Truthvader wrote: »

Ah the old rogue unit, the unauthorised action, the unsanctioned killing. Sure its hard to know what the lads were up to all the time. You can only fill them with explosives and hatred and hope for the best. And sure we can always just deny it. Sure one of the leaders wasn't even in the IRA. A confusing time God help us.

The IRA was one of the most sophisticated well organized guerrilla armies in the world at the time the leadership had tight control over the organisation but of course you can't control everyone 100% of the time that's inevitable