Is it just me or have SF vanished?

hatrickpatrick

markodaly wrote: »

If that was the actual case, I would have some respect for them, but they are not. The SD's may be like that, maybe Labour, even the Greens, but SF are nothing more than a reactionary populist rabble, whole will float like the wind.

When you say "float with the wind", do you mean "do whatever it takes to get the support of the public"? Good. Then they'll want to stick to the policies which led them to an unprecedented showing in the last general election, which means not abandoning left wing policies in housing and the cost of living if they get into power. We'll see if they deliver or not, but the others definitely won't.

Come what may? Even though they have spent records amount of taxpayers money on Health, education and housing in budget 2019... nevermind the €30 Billion more of a deficit we have to plug by years end, most of it being used to prop up welfare and small businesses?

And yet rents are still at all-time record highs and Fine Gael's "solution" is to block city councils from building social housing without selloffs to developers, and to champion the massive lowering of minimum standards for apartments, ultimately telling young people that, one way or another, we have to get used to a reduced quality of life over time.

People make out that FG are this ultra-right-wing party, who cut and cut and cut to the bone but they are not. If you look at the facts, the spending, the increased amount going into various departments, over the last few years it's astonishing really, that people think they are like that.

It's not about cuts to government departments, it's about what they spend money on and what they refuse to spend money on, as well as what interventions they refuse to make in the economy to ensure a quality of life for citizens. The two biggest issues among young voters that I spoke to in the run up to the election (and many of them wouldn't be cut from anything like the same left wing cloth as myself under normal circumstances) were co-living and O'Devaney Gardens. Both issues combined amounted to Murphy and Varadkar saying "f*ck you and your asipirations, the quality of life you enjoyed in the earlier part of this decade has been sacrificed on the alter of market 'recovery' and we're not going to do anything to get it back for you because we couldn't give a bollocks".

But I guess when you have others like PBP or SF who are never ever satisfied with government spending, then FG is this right-wing party, but this is Ireland, where perception rules reality.

Again, it's not about government spending alone. It's about what the government is willing to spend money on, and also what laws the government is willing to restrict price gouging.

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well do enlighten us, what evidence do you have to show us that the IRA are still operating.






Not arguing, giving my opinion like everyone else.

If you don’t believe the IRA are still operating, when do you believe they ceased operating?

jm08

SafeSurfer wrote: »

If you don’t believe the IRA are still operating, when do you believe they ceased operating?

According to Independent Monitoring Commission report of 2008, they had ceased operating.


More recently again in 2015 they reported that.


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/international-monitoring-commission-found-ira-out-of-business-1.2328636

Yeah_Right

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

While the hyperbole here is palpable, I think you're oddly close to getting it, actually. Revolutions happen when people are pushed too far. The manner in which Irish youth have been thrown under the bus by the establishment over the course of this decade has created a dangerous powder keg, and the kind of "we want someone to stop the crushing of us, we don't care who it is as long as they do it" mentality I've described is the result of that.

Glenn Greenwald summed it up beautifully in the context of Trump and Brexit, and again I know I'm repeating myself here but this quote is in my view central to understanding what's really going on:

One of the things that is bothering me and bothered me about the Brexit debate, and is bothering me a huge about the Trump debate, is that there is zero elite reckoning with their own responsibility in creating the situation that led to both Brexit and Trump and then the broader collapse of elite authority. The reason why Brexit resonated and Trump resonated isn’t that people are too stupid to understand the arguments. The reason they resonated is that people have been so f*cked by the prevailing order in such deep and fundamental and enduring ways that they can't imagine that anything is worse than preservation of the status quo. You have this huge portion of the populace in both the U.K. and the U.S. that is so angry and so helpless that they view exploding things without any idea of what the resulting debris is going to be to be preferable to having things continue, and the people they view as having done this to them to continue in power. That is a really serious and dangerous and not completely invalid perception that a lot of people who spend their days scorning Trump and his supporters or Brexit played a great deal in creating.

You can call that immoral if you like, I call it natural. When people are pushed to the point of desperation, lashing out in this manner is the inevitable result. Even if you believe it to be immoral or selfish, what you're still refusing to accept is that it's the establishment's OWN FAULT that this is happening. They chose to pursue policies which benefitted the property investor class over the young for the past twenty years. They chose to tell young people to go f*ck themselves when those young people objected to seeing their quality of life obliterated. They even chose to go on a classic "the voters are just too stupid to understand how our policies which have ruined their lives are actually good for them" ranting rampage in the immediate aftermath of the election.

Maybe next time, they could choose to pursue policies which will reverse the destruction of that demographic's quality of life, or else stop f*cking b!tching about the basic fact of democracy which is that voters will not vote for politicians whose ideology intentionally hurts those voters?

Yes, those voters prioritise reversing the decline in their quality of life which FG's "recovery" has brought them over every other political issue. How atrociously horrible of them.

Mate, you started with the hyperbolic stuff; a left wing Josef Fritzl vs a right wing Florence Nightingale? A serial killer paedophile? I simply carried that to its logical conclusion.

Ok, so young adults are being screwed by the system according to you. I can accept that as a point of view. Revolution? Violent overthrow of the government? Murders and terrorists in charge? Simply because you get promised what you want. That is BS. How about that demographic stop complaining and get involved. It is a democracy. Get out there and get elected and make the changes you want.

Also, are you my step son? 😆

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

If you don’t believe the IRA are still operating, when do you believe they ceased operating?

It's another one of those 'I don't know' situations.
I live on the border and I seen no signs that the IRA are operational, for years now actually.

Poster is calling me out on that...so I asked him/her to show me.

Truthvader

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well do enlighten us, what evidence do you have to show us that the IRA are still operating.


Ehhhhhh.........why do I have to keep posting the same link?

The Garda Commissioner has confirmed that the IRA still control Sinn Fein (Mary Lou, the bloated glove puppet, notwithstanding). That's good enough for me - even without all the posters here reporting the local Sinn Fein /IRA protection rackets and criminality.

Francie, did you ever report all that criminality in your area?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/what-evidence-is-there-that-the-ira-still-controls-sinn-f%C3%A9in-1.4182679

jm08

Truthvader wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well do enlighten us, what evidence do you have to show us that the IRA are still operating.


Ehhhhhh.........why do I have to keep posting the same link?

The Garda Commissioner has confirmed that the IRA still control Sinn Fein (Mary Lou, the bloated glove puppet, notwithstanding). That's good enough for me - even without all the posters here reporting the local Sinn Fein /IRA protection rackets and criminality.

Francie, did you ever report all that criminality in your area?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/what-evidence-is-there-that-the-ira-still-controls-sinn-f%C3%A9in-1.4182679

Final quote from that link:

These contradictions aside, there is one overarching conclusion reached by every report published in the last 15 years – the IRA’s military campaign is a thing of the past and is highly unlikely to return.

FrancieBrady

Truthvader wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well do enlighten us, what evidence do you have to show us that the IRA are still operating.


Ehhhhhh.........why do I have to keep posting the same link?

The Garda Commissioner has confirmed that the IRA still control Sinn Fein (Mary Lou, the bloated glove puppet, notwithstanding). That's good enough for me - even without all the posters here reporting the local Sinn Fein /IRA protection rackets and criminality.

Francie, did you ever report all that criminality in your area?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/what-evidence-is-there-that-the-ira-still-controls-sinn-f%C3%A9in-1.4182679

What does your link say about the IRA operationally?

it is not actively recruiting and that its leadership is committed to achieving a united Ireland through peaceful means.

That is what I have been seeing for years now.

Superfoods

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That is what I have been seeing for years now.

No idea what part of border you live on but this was 2016: https://www.thejournal.ie/ira-fuel-smugglers-3073951-Nov2016/

More recent: https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/ira-north-korea-green-diesel-14626711

Plenty more diesel been washed around the area, if you do live on the border I'm sure you will know the list of garage only the tourists will visit the locals stay away.

That's just the stuff they got caught at. Do you just say they are not active because they don't kill people anymore?

FrancieBrady

Superfoods wrote: »

No idea what part of border you live on but this was 2016: https://www.thejournal.ie/ira-fuel-smugglers-3073951-Nov2016/

More recent: https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/ira-north-korea-green-diesel-14626711

Plenty more diesel been washed around the area, if you do live on the border I'm sure you will know the list of garage only the tourists will visit the locals stay away.

That's just the stuff they got caught at. Do you just say they are not active because they don't kill people anymore?

That article is about 'dissidents' who didn't sign up to the GFA. They exist alright and are a threat. They are diametrically opposed to SF.

Are you sure you know what you are talking about here?

Superfoods

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That article is about 'dissidents' who didn't sign up to the GFA. They exist alright and are a threat. They are diametrically opposed to SF.

Are you sure you know what you are talking about here?

No Francie, I know nothing. You seem to be the only man in Ireland who knows everything about the PIRA and Sinn Fein.

For a first time voter, incredible knowledge.

As I said in my original post, its the same lads, the same links with Sinn Fein and doing the same things. Just sticking dissidents in front of them to cover the links to PIRA which is now gone

FrancieBrady

Superfoods wrote: »

No Francie, I know nothing. You seem to be the only man in Ireland who knows everything about the PIRA and Sinn Fein.

For a first time voter, incredible knowledge.

As I said in my original post, its the same lads, the same links with Sinn Fein and doing the same things. Just sticking dissidents in front of them to cover the links to PIRA which is now gone

Now I know you don't know what you are talking about.

And I am not a 'first time voter' I have never missed voting in the almost 40 years since I turned 18.

SafeSurfer

jm08 wrote: »

John Hume was fairly scathing about the south over the years and their lack of effort to help nationalists in NI. They were abandoned for the first 50 years. He was the one that drove the peace and he was the one who devised how to do it (by getting the US politicians involved).


I'd recommend you watching that video of Hume in America which is now on the RTE player at the moment.


https://www.rte.ie/player/movie/john-hume-in-america-s1-e1/78385704430



A memomorable comment from Fr Denis Faul after the Warrington Bombing which is critical of the south about not caring about catholic children being burnt in their beds.








A few more here to that atrocity. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/the-angry-south-the-weary-north-irish-people-voice-their-feelings-on-the-horrors-of-the-iras-1500451.html





None of those nationalists from NI sounded like they felt the south was doing a lot for them and their situation.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/the-angry-south-the-weary-north-irish-people-voice-their-feelings-on-the-horrors-of-the-iras-1500451.html

The same Denis Faul who passed on information to the Irish government claiming Gerry Adams was responsible for passing information to the British which resulted in the Loughgall massacre and who also told journalists he believed Martin Mc Guinness was a British mole. That Denis Faul?

Edgware

jm08 wrote: »

John Hume was fairly scathing about the south over the years and their lack of effort to help nationalists in NI. They were abandoned for the first 50 years. He was the one that drove the peace and he was the one who devised how to do it (by getting the US politicians involved).


I'd recommend you watching that video of Hume in America which is now on the RTE player at the moment.


https://www.rte.ie/player/movie/john-hume-in-america-s1-e1/78385704430



A memomorable comment from Fr Denis Faul after the Warrington Bombing which is critical of the south about not caring about catholic children being burnt in their beds.








A few more here to that atrocity. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/the-angry-south-the-weary-north-irish-people-voice-their-feelings-on-the-horrors-of-the-iras-1500451.html





None of those nationalists from NI sounded like they felt the south was doing a lot for them and their situation.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/the-angry-south-the-weary-north-irish-people-voice-their-feelings-on-the-horrors-of-the-iras-1500451.html

Its always someone elses fault. What did the Nationalists do to improve their situation for fifty years? Sit on their arse1 and complain about Dublin. In any case during the War of Independence the level of I.R.A. activity in what is now the six counties was far less than down the South. Were they afraid to upset the Unionists?

Bonniedog

Shinners and DUP have come out in support of the Chinese crackdown in Hong Kong. Presumably they also approve of the genocide of the Uighirs.

jm08

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The same Denis Faul who passed on information to the Irish government claiming Gerry Adams was responsible for passing information to the British which resulted in the Loughgall massacre and who also told journalists he believed Martin Mc Guinness was a British mole. That Denis Faul?

No, the Denis Faul who passed on this information of a rumour (from State papers).

A document released today by the Department of Foreign Affairs shows that Fr Denis Faul said there was a rumour doing the rounds that "the IRA team were set up by Gerry Adams himself."
Fr Faul was "intrigued" by the theory. A spokesperson for Sinn Féin has today told RTÉ that "these claims are utter nonsense".

Godson does not reveal whether Faul told him any other names. But to be fair to McGuinness, it is not clear whether Faul believed McGuinness was an active agent of British intelligence, or an "agent of influence" in the more acceptable sense that he agreed with the peace process - which both the British and Irish governments were jointly pushing then as now. But coming from such solid sources as Godson and Faul, the allegations will increase pressure on the Provos to sign up for policing.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/mcguinness-did-work-for-british-faul-26413586.html


The devil is in the detail SS. Will you ever learn?

hatrickpatrick

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Mate, you started with the hyperbolic stuff; a left wing Josef Fritzl vs a right wing Florence Nightingale? A serial killer paedophile? I simply carried that to its logical conclusion.

I was simply making the point that young voters are voting entirely based on ideology at this point - on what policies a particular TD is likely to vote yes to, and which ones they are likely to vote no to. We don’t care about any other factors than this.

Ok, so young adults are being screwed by the system according to you. I can accept that as a point of view. Revolution? Violent overthrow of the government? Murders and terrorists in charge? Simply because you get promised what you want. That is BS. How about that demographic stop complaining and get involved. It is a democracy. Get out there and get elected and make the changes you want.

That’s what we have been doing. That’s why young people have been joining and voting for Sinn Fein in their droves. Getting involved in the democratic process and in so doing delivering a historic election result in which FFG combined do not command a majority of Dàil seats. How much more engaged in the democratic process to make the changes we want can you get?

Again, the point is we don’t give a f*ck about who is in government. It’s what they do that determines whether we’ll vote for them again.

Also, are you my step son? 😆

My father is very much alive and you’ll be happy to hear is a supporter of Fine Gael He utterly despises SF too, to the point of being unable to have a conversation with a supporter without losing his temper

jm08

Edgware wrote: »

Its always someone elses fault. What did the Nationalists do to improve their situation for fifty years? Sit on their arse1 and complain about Dublin. In any case during the War of Independence the level of I.R.A. activity in what is now the six counties was far less than down the South. Were they afraid to upset the Unionists?

Well, you do know what happened when they started the civil rights campaign - 13 were shot in Derry by the Paras.



Frank Aiken was fairly active in the Civil War up around south armagh and Louth. Ever hear of the Altnaveigh Massacre?

FrancieBrady

jm08 wrote: »

Well, you do know what happened when they started the civil rights campaign - 13 were shot in Derry by the Paras.

Whoa a minute there JM, should his/her first lesson be in 'what and how could nationalists do about it'. Dublin stood idly by and watched Unionists change the voting system to allow them to gerrymander and legislate nationalists out of influence while London ignored it.

What is alarmingly evident in these discussions is that when posters do eventually add something to the discussion it is so poorly informed to be laughable.

Edgware

jm08 wrote: »

Well, you do know what happened when they started the civil rights campaign - 13 were shot in Derry by the Paras.



Frank Aiken was fairly active in the Civil War up around south armagh and Louth. Ever hear of the Altnaveigh Massacre?

Theres a fifty year gap there

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Whoa a minute there JM, should his/her first lesson be in 'what and how could nationalists do about it'. Dublin stood idly by and watched Unionists change the voting system to allow them to gerrymander and legislate nationalists out of influence while London ignored it.

What is alarmingly evident in these discussions is that when posters do eventually add something to the discussion it is so poorly informed to be laughable.

Why would the southern government intervene to prevent gerrymandering in the north when successive southern governments engaged in gerrymandering (tullymandering for example) in the south?

Gerrymandering in the north disadvantaged smaller northern parties, including small unionist parties To a greater extent than nationalist parties.

London reintroduced PR-STV in the north.

What should a Dublin have done? How should they have intervened?

castletownman

That story about the SF member at local level in Wexford having to resign his chairmanship after being caught cyber abusing a local politican and businessman using a fake twitter account is crazy.

I have heard a recording of him basically been exposed and the amount of denying he does initially would make Adams proud.

I know the fella a bit too. And he always came across as a bit brash and assholey.

SafeSurfer

jm08 wrote: »

No, the Denis Faul who passed on this information of a rumour (from State papers).








https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/mcguinness-did-work-for-british-faul-26413586.html


The devil is in the detail SS. Will you ever learn?

You’re right. Why would big Gerry arrange the killing of the man who had threatened to kill him. At least they sent their top guy to investigate the source of the leak which led to the destruction of the East Tyrone IRA. Who did they send to get to the truth for Gerry? Oh yes, British agent Freddy Scapatticci.







https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/mcguinness-did-work-for-british-faul-26413586.html


The devil is in the detail SS. Will you ever learn?[/quote]

Bonniedog

castletownman wrote: »

That story about the SF member at local level in Wexford having to resign his chairmanship after being caught cyber abusing a local politican and businessman using a fake twitter account is crazy.

I have heard a recording of him basically been exposed and the amount of denying he does initially would make Adams proud.

I know the fella a bit too. And he always came across as a bit brash and assholey.

How long has he been in SF?

I knew Maurice Roche fairly well and it was the likes of your man who were harassing him and eventually forced him out.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

You’re right. Why would big Gerry arrange the killing of the man who had threatened to kill him. At least they sent their top guy to investigate the source of the leak which led to the destruction of the East Tyrone IRA. Who did they send to get to the truth for Gerry? Oh yes, British agent Freddy Scapatticci.







https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/mcguinness-did-work-for-british-faul-26413586.html


The devil is in the detail SS. Will you ever learn?

[/QUOTE]

You are presenting Eoghan Harris and David Trimble's biographer as sources? Okay. Must be all true so.

Gerry was some operator you have to hand it to him.

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You are presenting Eoghan Harris and David Trimble's biographer as sources? Okay. Must be all true so.

Gerry was some operator you have to hand it to him.[/quote]


I suppose you are going to tell us that you knew Denis Faul better than Dean Godson now and that you have some special insight because your house is near the border.
You haven’t read the book have you?


What was Scappatticis findings on the source of the Loughgall leak?

It definitely wasn’t Gerry. Right?

FrancieBrady

I suppose you are going to tell us that you knew Denis Faul better than Dean Godson now and that you have some special insight because your house is near the border.
You haven’t read the book have you?


What was Scappatticis findings on the source of the Loughgall leak?

It definitely wasn’t Gerry. Right?

I'm just wondering how Adams survived, not to mention McGuinness if we are to believe the various allegations. He had the British state, The Irish state's security forces pitted against him, he was touting for the British wile planning pretty destructive acts against them, even almost killing their PM as the top man in the 'RA.
His work for the British was so well known about that random priest and unionist writers knew that he had sent IRA to their deaths to settle a dispute/leadership challenge.

I mean you have got to admire him as a survivor, if nothing else..no?

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I'm just wondering how Adams survived, not to mention McGuinness if we are to believe the various allegations. He had the British state, The Irish state's security forces pitted against him, he was touting for the British wile planning pretty destructive acts against them, even almost killing their PM as the top man in the 'RA.
His work for the British was so well known about that random priest and unionist writers knew that he had sent IRA to their deaths to settle a dispute/leadership challenge.

I mean you have got to admire him as a survivor, if nothing else..no?

Well he did have powerful friends.

markodaly

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

When you say "float with the wind", do you mean "do whatever it takes to get the support of the public"? Good. Then they'll want to stick to the policies which led them to an unprecedented showing in the last general election, which means not abandoning left wing policies in housing and the cost of living if they get into power. We'll see if they deliver or not, but the others definitely won't.

You admire them for 'floating like the wind' but then want them to stick to their policies which... float like the wind? Let me say to you, you will be disappointed.

The problem with left-wing politics in Ireland is that they over-promise with easy solutions but when in power, realise its a lot more difficult in reality.
Do you honestly think if Labour could deliver on everything they campaigned for in 2011, they would have? It is not as if they decided in some smoke-filled room the night of the election to just abandon everything, they did what they could, which was actually a lot, but in a coalition, one has to compromise.

The Greens are learning that too and are running scared.
It looks like they could jump before the year is out and where will that leave us? Another election, is that what you want?

And yet rents are still at all-time record highs and Fine Gael's "solution" is to block city councils from building social housing without selloffs to developers, and to champion the massive lowering of minimum standards for apartments, ultimately telling young people that, one way or another, we have to get used to a reduced quality of life over time.

Rents have actually tumbled a lot the past 6 months but anyway, this bit is a highly simplistic take on the situation. One would swear even if he above is true, that that is all FG ever did.
Issues with social housing can be put squarely at the feet of the LA's, especially in Dublin. How did DCC do the past 5 years or so?

It's not about cuts to government departments, it's about what they spend money on and what they refuse to spend money on, as well as what interventions they refuse to make in the economy to ensure a quality of life for citizens. The two biggest issues among young voters that I spoke to in the run up to the election (and many of them wouldn't be cut from anything like the same left wing cloth as myself under normal circumstances) were co-living and O'Devaney Gardens. Both issues combined amounted to Murphy and Varadkar saying "f*ck you and your asipirations, the quality of life you enjoyed in the earlier part of this decade has been sacrificed on the alter of market 'recovery' and we're not going to do anything to get it back for you because we couldn't give a bollocks".

I highly doubt this, I really do. Not every young person lives in inner city Dublin by the way, so perhaps you are getting a slant on what 'some' you people say.

No doubt that younger people are feeling the pinch more than older people. I don't deny that, but again this is bigger issue in the Western world than what is happening in Ireland.

The issue of housing is complex and is one faced by pretty much every country. If you want to talk about that per say, we can.

One of the things I can identify with, is that the wheels of government just turns too slowly, much too slowly. MM mentioned this in a Sunday Indo interview some months back, as to things that needs to change. But that requires some serous reform of the Civil Service and make it both accountable and fit for the 21st century.

Now if SF or others had an actual plan to overhaul the CS and make it thus, then I would listen, but all I hear from them is that everything is wrong because of said minister, when in reality, the minister is just the public face of a Dept. and really not much would change if this person is different.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Well he did have powerful friends.

He almost killed the most powerful one working as a tout for her armed forces if the allegations are true. Does that make the slightest sense to you?
Seems to me that he is a very relaxed member of his own community even though random priests and unionist writers were aware that he had sent members of that community to their deaths...does that make the slightest sense outside of fiction?