Is it just me or have SF vanished?

SafeSurfer

RandomViewer wrote: »

IRA didn't kill Donaldson, Paisley had crime scene photos before anyone else including the Gardai,

Of course not. Must have been the Mexicans again, flush with their Northern Bank raid money.

The Real IRA claimed responsibility for the murder.

Bonniedog

jm08 wrote: »

In fairness, Niall O'Dowd who wrote that article in Irish Central isn't holding back in his criticism of them. And what adds more weight to what he says is that he is the brother of a Fine Gael TD, so not a closet Shinner.

SS - what age are you - are you old enough to remember the 1966 commemorations?

You are obviously not familiar with his work!

Has been Adams groupie for 30 years.

RandomViewer

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Of course not. Must have been the Mexicans again, flush with their Northern Bank raid money.

The Real IRA claimed responsibility for the murder.

Donaldson was wandering around Ardara for months before he died, Sunday World makes a big deal about where he is and 2 days later he's dead, SW photographer was former RUC, Gardai have prevented an inquest for years

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-48858481

SafeSurfer

RandomViewer wrote: »

Donaldson was wandering around Ardara for months before he died, Sunday World makes a big deal about where he is and 2 days later he's dead, SW photographer was former RUC, Gardai have prevented an inquest for years

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-48858481

“Before he died”! He didn’t die, he was murdered.

Gardaí are conducting a criminal investigation in which the chief suspect is still in custody abroad. Not “preventing” an inquest for the craic.

So your theory is that the Sunday World photographer did it, is that it?

Bonniedog

Provies didn't kill Donaldson. They just wanted him to go away same as all the other Belfast touts that have been unveiled.

If Brits thought they had done it, they would just out another of Gerry's chums.

FrancieBrady

Too many spy film watchers about.
A few guys decided to get rich and turned traitor...happens in every army in the world.

Like the incidence of sexual abuse in republican circles (no higher or lower than anywhere else) was blown out of all proportion, cheerfully by our partitionists and unionists, I suspect so too is the incidence of infiltration and betrayal.
Fits in nicely to the narrative so the watchwords should be - treat with caution.

jm08

Bonniedog wrote: »

You are obviously not familiar with his work!

Has been Adams groupie for 30 years.

More John Hume I think. Very influential in Irish America. It was he who Clinton consulted initially.

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Too many spy film watchers about.
A few guys decided to get rich and turned traitor...happens in every army in the world.

Like the incidence of sexual abuse in republican circles (no higher or lower than anywhere else) was blown out of all proportion, cheerfully by our partitionists and unionists, I suspect so too is the incidence of infiltration and betrayal.
Fits in nicely to the narrative so the watchwords should be - treat with caution.

What is the average level of sexual abuse in organisations?
I ask because you must know. You claim the level of sexual abuse in republican circles is “no higher or lower than anywhere else”. So it must be at the international average.
However you do not know what the average level of sexual abuse is not do you know if the level of abuse was higher or lower in republican circles.
Yet another example of your selective certainty.

Was Gerry Adams in the IRA?
Francie: I don’t know.

What was the level of sexual abuse in republican circles and how does it compare to other organisations?
Francie: Oh it was about average.

In my opinion all paramilitary groups during the Troubles, both loyalist and nationalist, attracted the type of people who would have become involved in criminal activity anyway. The troubles and their various groups, be that the IRA, UVF, INLA or UDA just served as a means to gain status, money and power. Some members, no doubt were motivated by politics and ideology but for many,, especially in disadvantaged areas during the 70s and 80s, the paramilitaries were the only game in town.

It should be no surprise that many of these turned informer either to save their own necks or to expose rivals or for purely financial gain.
Equally, the troubles were not normal times. Some people were untouchable in their communities and they used their power and the fear they instilled to rape and molest. Safe in the knowledge that there would be no complaint made against them. This is as true of the nationalist paramilitaries as it is of the loyalist ones.

Of course many seek to play down both the number of informers and the level of sexual abuse in these organisations.


Was it really no higher or lower than anywhere else?

Unlike Francie, I don’t know.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

What is the average level of sexual abuse in organisations?
I ask because you must know. You claim the level of sexual abuse in republican circles is “no higher or lower than anywhere else”. So it must be at the international average.
However you do not know what the average level of sexual abuse is not do you know if the level of abuse was higher or lower in republican circles.
Yet another example of your selective certainty.

Was Gerry Adams in the IRA?
Francie: I don’t know.

What was the level of sexual abuse in republican circles and how does it compare to other organisations?
Francie: Oh it was about average.

On the basis that most organisations have had issues pre-awareness days with abuse and predation.
I am not aware that the incidence is any higher in the IRA than it is in like size organisations or demographic groups.
It's an opinion, I have no data to back it up, if you can enlighten us with data (not breathless 'I know of 40 cases'Regina Doherty allegations/what turned out to be fantasy/lies) work away on that one.

In my opinion all paramilitary groups during the Troubles, both loyalist and nationalist, attracted the type of people who would have become involved in criminal activity anyway. The troubles and their various groups, be that the IRA, UVF, INLA or UDA just served as a means to gain status, money and power. Some members, no doubt were motivated by politics and ideology but for many,, especially in disadvantaged areas during the 70s and 80s, the paramilitaries were the only game in town.

It should be no surprise that many of these turned informer either to save their own necks or to expose rivals or for purely financial gain.
Equally, the troubles were not normal times. Some people were untouchable in their communities and they used their power and the fear they instilled to rape and molest. Safe in the knowledge that there would be no complaint made against them. This is as true of the nationalist paramilitaries as it is of the loyalist ones.

Of course many seek to play down both the number of informers and the level of sexual abuse in these organisations.


Was it really no higher or lower than anywhere else?

Unlike Francie, I don’t know.

Most armies if not all, require a thug element to engage in what they do...that is the reality the world over. They don't have special army police for nothing.
The IRA was no different, I fully agree that thugs attached themselves.

Good to see you agreeing that there is no way of knowing how much infiltration happened.

I live in a border town well known as a republican stronghold, had several bombs during the troubles and notable participants living in it...I would know most people in it and around the area and I can genuinely say that all through the troubles I was never aware of one of these 'overlord' figures, controlling it. I think this is another myth blown out of proportion.

Superfoods

FrancieBrady wrote: »

On the basis that most organisations have had issues pre-awareness days with abuse and predation.
I am not aware that the incidence is any higher in the IRA than it is in like size organisations or demographic groups.
It's an opinion, I have no data to back it up, if you can enlighten us with data (not breathless 'I know of 40 cases'Regina Doherty allegations/what turned out to be fantasy/lies) work away on that one.



Most armies if not all, require a thug element to engage in what they do...that is the reality the world over. They don't have special army police for nothing.
The IRA was no different, I fully agree that thugs attached themselves.

Good to see you agreeing that there is no way of knowing how much infiltration happened.

I live in a border town well known as a republican stronghold, had several bombs during the troubles and notable participants living in it...I would know most people in it and around the area and I can genuinely say that all through the troubles I was never aware of one of these 'overlord' figures, controlling it. I think this is another myth blown out of proportion.

Why are you making stuff up?

FrancieBrady

Superfoods wrote: »

Why are you making stuff up?

What am I 'making up'?

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

On the basis that most organisations have had issues pre-awareness days with abuse and predation.
I am not aware that the incidence is any higher in the IRA than it is in like size organisations or demographic groups.
It's an opinion, I have no data to back it up, if you can enlighten us with data (not breathless 'I know of 40 cases'Regina Doherty allegations/what turned out to be fantasy/lies) work away on that one.



Most armies if not all, require a thug element to engage in what they do...that is the reality the world over. They don't have special army police for nothing.
The IRA was no different, I fully agree that thugs attached themselves.

Good to see you agreeing that there is no way of knowing how much infiltration happened.

I live in a border town well known as a republican stronghold, had several bombs during the troubles and notable participants living in it...I would know most people in it and around the area and I can genuinely say that all through the troubles I was never aware of one of these 'overlord' figures, controlling it. I think this is another myth blown out of proportion.

So the idea of local IRA godfathers such as Slab Murphy being powerful and feared figures in their communities, is, not just blown out of proportion, but like informers and sexual abuse in the republican organisation, “this is another myth blown out of proportion”.

So the notion of IRA informers, IRA sexual abuse and local IRA godfathers are not just exaggerated but are a MYTH? A widely held but false belief?

Is that your core belief?

Your house is close to the border and your experience of not being aware of any powerful local republican figures is certainly at odds with many other people living in similar situations. Confirmation bias may be at play.

RandomViewer

SafeSurfer wrote: »

“Before he died”! He didn’t die, he was murdered.

Gardaí are conducting a criminal investigation in which the chief suspect is still in custody abroad. Not “preventing” an inquest for the craic.

So your theory is that the Sunday World photographer did it, is that it?

23 times?

Edgware

FrancieBrady wrote: »

On the basis that most organisations have had issues pre-awareness days with abuse and predation.
I am not aware that the incidence is any higher in the IRA than it is in like size organisations or demographic groups.
It's an opinion, I have no data to back it up, if you can enlighten us with data (not breathless 'I know of 40 cases'Regina Doherty allegations/what turned out to be fantasy/lies) work away on that one.



Most armies if not all, require a thug element to engage in what they do...that is the reality the world over. They don't have special army police for nothing.
The IRA was no different, I fully agree that thugs attached themselves.

Good to see you agreeing that there is no way of knowing how much infiltration happened.

I live in a border town well known as a republican stronghold, had several bombs during the troubles and notable participants living in it...I would know most people in it and around the area and I can genuinely say that all through the troubles I was never aware of one of these 'overlord' figures, controlling it. I think this is another myth blown out of proportion.

uh

More make believe from the wannabee

SafeSurfer

RandomViewer wrote: »

23 times?

The suspect is still in prison overseas.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

So the idea of local IRA godfathers such as Slab Murphy being powerful and feared figures in their communities, is, not just blown out of proportion, but like informers and sexual abuse in the republican organisation, “this is another myth blown out of proportion”.

So the notion of IRA informers, IRA sexual abuse and local IRA godfathers are not just exaggerated but are a MYTH? A widely held but false belief?

Is that your core belief?

Your house is close to the border and your experience of not being aware of any powerful local republican figures is certainly at odds with many other people living in similar situations. Confirmation bias may be at play.

I was totally aware of 'republican figures', but this 'community living in fear stuf' is a complete and utter nonsense here.
In respect of the town I lived in for the best part of 50 years I am not aware of a single 'punishment beating/shooting' or a 'republican figure laying down the law as you say was widespread.

It's an easy thing to print and say, much harder to find evidence of it being a widespread phenomena.
Punishment beatings happened in certain areas, we all know that, but whole communities living in fear across NI and along the border does not for a minute match the reality, it's a gross distortion of the truth, just as representing the area as 'lawless' is.

Superfoods

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What am I 'making up'?

So far the majority of the information in your posts is suspect. You claim to live beside the border but provide no information you can back up. Everything is vague "Oh i know this or that".

You deny all existence of the PIRA and now trying to say they have no "overlords". That is a lie. The PIRA itself was build based on an army. Do you think an army don't have commanders etc? what exactly do you think Gerry was doing when he commanded people to be killed? he was just one of the grunts?

Maybe nobody else on this forum lives along the border area and that's why you are coming up with these stories. I just think your no more living on the border area than you are living on the moon

FrancieBrady

Superfoods wrote: »

So far the majority of the information in your posts is suspect. You claim to live beside the border but provide no information you can back up. Everything is vague "Oh i know this or that".

You deny all existence of the PIRA and now trying to say they have no "overlords". That is a lie. The PIRA itself was build based on an army. Do you think an army don't have commanders etc? what exactly do you think Gerry was doing when he commanded people to be killed? he was just one of the grunts?

Did someone mention vague?

Maybe nobody else on this forum lives along the border area and that's why you are coming up with these stories. I just think your no more living on the border area than you are living on the moon

I cannot prove where I am from...I have never lied about it here...I live seconds away from the border...believe it or not.

Superfoods

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I was totally aware of 'republican figures', but this 'community living in fear stuf' is a complete and utter nonsense here.
In respect of the town I lived in for the best part of 50 years I am not aware of a single 'punishment beating/shooting' or a 'republican figure laying down the law as you say was widespread.

It's an easy thing to print and say, much harder to find evidence of it being a widespread phenomena.
Punishment beatings happened in certain areas, we all know that, but whole communities living in fear across NI and along the border does not for a minute match the reality, it's a gross distortion of the truth, just as representing the area as 'lawless' is.

Are you having a laugh? how are you coming up with this stuff? so nobody North or South of border lived in fear?

FrancieBrady

Superfoods wrote: »

Are you having a laugh? how are you coming up with this stuff? so nobody North or South of border lived in fear?

Where did I say that?

joeguevara

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where did I say that?

I think it’s a misunderstanding after you said that living in fear is a ‘complete and utter nonsense’ for people living where you are. I don’t think you meant that it was your intention to suggest that it didn’t happen in other places but I can understand how it was interpreted that way.

Bonniedog

jm08 wrote: »

More John Hume I think. Very influential in Irish America. It was he who Clinton consulted initially.

Well, you'd be wrong. O'Dowd and Adams are as thick as thieves and have been for nearly 30 years.

FrancieBrady

joeguevara wrote: »

I think it’s a misunderstanding after you said that living in fear is a ‘complete and utter nonsense’ for people living where you are. I don’t think you meant that it was your intention to suggest that it didn’t happen in other places but I can understand how it was interpreted that way.

People reading tabloid headlines and sensationalism and taking it as gospel is a huge issue.

Look at Slab Murphy for instance...Slab may have been feared and been a thug...but 1000's of people in his community were not living in fear as 99.9% of them would have no dealings with him or crossed his path.
Yes, some people no doubt lived in fear of him...but this gets blown out of all proportion...the vast majority of people got on with their lives during the conflict.

Edgware

FrancieBrady wrote: »

People reading tabloid headlines and sensationalism and taking it as gospel is a huge issue.

Look at Slab Murphy for instance...Slab may have been feared and been a thug...but 1000's of people in his community were not living in fear as 99.9% of them would have no dealings with him or crossed his path.
Yes, some people no doubt lived in fear of him...but this gets blown out of all proportion...the vast majority of people got on with their lives during the conflict.

Desperate stuff altogether

joeguevara

FrancieBrady wrote: »

People reading tabloid headlines and sensationalism and taking it as gospel is a huge issue.

Look at Slab Murphy for instance...Slab may have been feared and been a thug...but 1000's of people in his community were not living in fear as 99.9% of them would have no dealings with him or crossed his path.
Yes, some people no doubt lived in fear of him...but this gets blown out of all proportion...the vast majority of people got on with their lives during the conflict.

I would agree to a large extent. In republican areas if you lived a normal life and didn’t sell drugs, commit crime etc you had nothing to fear from the para militaries. If you were a wee scr0te you were dealt with. However it is also true that protection money (tax) was also required from businesses in many places so I’m sure that they were fearful of that. In a lot of ways it was similar to the mafia set up. People went to them when they had problems and weren’t to a large extent effected. But being fearful and fear are definitely separate things but can be mixed up when explained.

But other sides of the community were definitely in fear. Especially when death cars were seen. But that’s not universal to one side.

Superfoods

FrancieBrady wrote: »

People reading tabloid headlines and sensationalism and taking it as gospel is a huge issue.

Look at Slab Murphy for instance...Slab may have been feared and been a thug...but 1000's of people in his community were not living in fear as 99.9% of them would have no dealings with him or crossed his path.
Yes, some people no doubt lived in fear of him...but this gets blown out of all proportion...the vast majority of people got on with their lives during the conflict.

Rubbish. Go out for a few beers and look in wrong direction and you had target on your back. The PIRA ran entire communities based on fear. Anyone cross a line and you knew about it. Simple as that. Otherwise people would have gone up against them, so they made sure everyone was in line.

I never seen any of that reported in the press, I didn't see a lot of the carry on reported ever in the press. During or since.

I am just wondering what your angle is on this? are you saying the PIRA helped sponsor local childcare and play grounds? everyone loved the local representative in the town. Sure he was a lovely lad. Most of these guys where headcases, beating someone meant nothing because it wasn't like the local Garda was going to bother his ass going up against them

FrancieBrady

Superfoods wrote: »

Rubbish. Go out for a few beers and look in wrong direction and you had target on your back. The PIRA ran entire communities based on fear. Anyone cross a line and you knew about it. Simple as that. Otherwise people would have gone up against them, so they made sure everyone was in line.

I never seen any of that reported in the press, I didn't see a lot of the carry on reported ever in the press. During or since.

I am just wondering what your angle is on this? are you saying the PIRA helped sponsor local childcare and play grounds? everyone loved the local representative in the town. Sure he was a lovely lad. Most of these guys where headcases, beating someone meant nothing because it wasn't like the local Garda was going to bother his ass going up against them

What 'entire communities'? Can you list some?

Bishop of hope

FrancieBrady wrote: »

People reading tabloid headlines and sensationalism and taking it as gospel is a huge issue.

Look at Slab Murphy for instance...Slab may have been feared and been a thug...but 1000's of people in his community were not living in fear as 99.9% of them would have no dealings with him or crossed his path.
Yes, some people no doubt lived in fear of him...but this gets blown out of all proportion...the vast majority of people got on with their lives during the conflict.

Tbf most people along the border didn't know most of the activists along it or close to it.
There were loads of activists country wide as well.
They didn't go around with uniforms on telling people how to live or act.
The fear for most people was just making sure they weren't in the wrong place at the wrong time and get caught up in an actual violent episode.
The IRA weren't like the gestapo, ordinary life was carried on without fear mostly.
If you wanted to experience fear, seeing the British army crawling in ditches and hedgerows with their guns trained on passing traffic, or the UDR strutting about or their checkpoints, that was rule by fear and intimidation.

FrancieBrady

Bishop of hope wrote: »

Tbf most people along the border didn't know most of the activists along it or close to it.
There were loads of activists country wide as well.
They didn't go around with uniforms on telling people how to live or act.
The fear for most people was just making sure they weren't in the wrong place at the wrong time and get caught up in an actual violent episode.
The IRA weren't like the gestapo, ordinary life was carried on without fear mostly.
If you wanted to experience fear, seeing the British army crawling in ditches and hedgerows with their guns trained on passing traffic, or the UDR strutting about or their checkpoints, that was rule by fear and intimidation.

I get you...there is nothing quite like the surge of adrenalin when you ran into a duck patrol along the Drumully salient in the dead of night. Had experience of that a few times and I don't want to go back.You are afraid, the poor squaddie is petrified...recipe for a disaster.

I agree there were all sorts of 'fearful' situations you could find yourself in but the idea of 'communities under control by fear' is a nonsense.
Anytime a lazy arsed journalist uses that trope and they STILL do I immediately know they don't know what they are talking about or have an agenda, or both.

jm08

Bonniedog wrote: »

You are obviously not familiar with his work!

Has been Adams groupie for 30 years.

I'm well familiar with his work in supporting the peace process in NI.