Is it just me or have SF vanished?

markodaly

It seems there are now huge questions of Sinn Feins position on Hong Kong and the recent Chinese crack down on pro-democracy groups there.

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/sinn-fein-faces-questions-as-mep-abstains-from-condemnation-of-hong-kong-crackdown-39445591.html

A Sinn Féin MEP abstained on a European Parliament vote condemning Hong Kong's controversial new security laws - in a move that puts a fresh spotlight on the party's relationship with China.

Midlands North West MEP Chris MacManus argued the resolution did not manage to "strike a balance between recognising China's sovereignty and raising valid concerns"

What is SF's play here?
They dont want to offend China?
They dont care about democracy or Human Rights?
They cant be seen to be siding with the British?
All of the above?

"Democracy for us, but not for thee"
Bunch of regressive fools.

jm08

SafeSurfer wrote: »

In my experience it is the same in communities on the border. If you witnessed an assault on the street after a nightclub and learned the attacker was from a local ra family you would keep your mouth shut.
Why? Out of respect? No, out of fear.

The only way the PIRA could operate the way they did was because they had the support of the community.



During the troubles, catholics didn't trust the RUC so the PIRA ended up being the one to keep law and order. Your Professor Kennedy's report seems to be concentrated from 1998 to the present day but seems to blame all punishment beatings on Sinn Fein even if dissident republicans are responsible. Certainly in the case of ''A Mother Brings Her Son to be Shot'', it was dissident republicans who did it. Not the PIRA.


As a matter of information, do you actually understand the difference between the different paramilitary groups now as in there are/were dissident republicans such as New IRA, INLA, SAOR etc. who may have been former PIRA, but did not/do not support the GFA?

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Intimidation of witnesses happens everywhere and is not unique to NI or border areas.

It is targeted and specific.

I'm sorry but that doesn't fulfil the requirement of proof for tropes like 'communities living in fear of an overlord'

Again loads of elasticity with the reality of a given situation...in my town and I would hazard a guess it was the same in most small towns, all businesses would close at a funeral cortege passed...regardless of creed or status.


I and others have never claimed there was 'no fear', of course there was fear.
What I am contesting is that there were widespread communities living in fear of IRA overlords. There wasn't and there is certainly next to none now.

If you locked horns with the British, Loyalists or the IRA, yes you could and would pay the price if you crossed them.

But the reality is as pointed out by people here that lived through it and who still live in these communities that people got on with life.

Again...your and others inability to name 'these communities living in fear' is striking and telling. Tropes are important to those who wish to tout an agenda.

Not unlike the fantastic theories about Adam's nefariousness is the preposterous idea that these communities 'living in fear' are going into the secrecy of the ballot box electing the very people accused of intimidating them to public office, over and over again. Bizarre again.

Whatabout...

Whatabout...

Whatabout...

Whatabout...

...and no, fear and intimidation of witnesss by ex paramilitary terrorits dont happen everywhere.

markodaly

jm08 wrote: »

The only way the PIRA could operate the way they did was because they had the support of the community.

Would say the same about Criminal gangs? Or the Mafia?

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

They dont want to offend China?

The guy on the right in this picture doesn't seem to be too keen to offend either.



McManus explained why he abstained (MEPS abstain all the time, check out some of the abstentions of whatever MEP you support, a paper like the Sindo would have no bother making juicy inferences I bet. )

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Whatabout...

Whatabout...

Whatabout...

Whatabout...

...and no, fear and intimidation of witnesss by ex paramilitary terrorits dont happen everywhere.

Intimidation of witnesses is a targetted and individual thing. I have several times now said it goes on and went on.

But we are talking about the trope of 'communities living in fear, then and now'.

STILL not a single example of one given.

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Intimidation of witnesses happens everywhere and is not unique to NI or border areas.

It is targeted and specific.

I'm sorry but that doesn't fulfil the requirement of proof for tropes like 'communities living in fear of an overlord'

Again loads of elasticity with the reality of a given situation...in my town and I would hazard a guess it was the same in most small towns, all businesses would close at a funeral cortege passed...regardless of creed or status.


I and others have never claimed there was 'no fear', of course there was fear.
What I am contesting is that there were widespread communities living in fear of IRA overlords. There wasn't and there is certainly next to none now.

If you locked horns with the British, Loyalists or the IRA, yes you could and would pay the price if you crossed them.

But the reality is as pointed out by people here that lived through it and who still live in these communities that people got on with life.

Again...your and others inability to name 'these communities living in fear' is striking and telling. Tropes are important to those who wish to tout an agenda.

Not unlike the fantastic theories about Adam's nefariousness is the preposterous idea that these communities 'living in fear' are going into the secrecy of the ballot box electing the very people accused of intimidating them to public office, over and over again. Bizarre again.

Yet again with the selective certainty and willingness to “hazard a guess” that your experiences reflect everyone else’s experience.
Yet your opinion on questions hat you don’t want to answer remains “I don’t know”.

Why would anyone fear a “good republican” like Slab Murphy with his own personal Underground torture chamber. A man who testified against him in court ended up dead with a spike driven through his face a few months later. But of course you are right Francie, no one in the community or any other community was afraid of Slab and his ilk because that is your opinion and that alone “fulfills the requirement of proof” for the “myth” of informers in the IRA, the “myth” of IRA sexual abuse and now the “myth” of fear of these violent figures.
Well done Francie. Well done.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The guy on the right in this picture doesn't seem to be too keen to offend either.



McManus explained why he abstained (MEPS abstain all the time, check out some of the abstentions of whatever MEP you support, a paper like the Sindo would have no bother making juicy inferences I bet. )

...and the classic Francie response to SF criticism.

Post up a photo of Leo, as if that is an argument.
Are you still sore about the fact that when you type in "Gerry Adams murderer" that one gets 1.5 million hits?
Maybe that is because Gerry who was never in the IRA Adams did indeed order the murder of people.


Anyway, getting back on topic.

So what is SF's position on Hong Kong, seeing as one of their MEP's abstained in bringing China to the International Criminal Court of their illegal clamdown in Hong Kong and MoN's fawning to China in a recent video call?

jm08

markodaly wrote: »

Would say the same about Criminal gangs? Or the Mafia?

No. Not at all. Criminal gangs and Mafia would be wiped out in a few days if British Army troops were after them. When internment was introduced about 2,000 people were interned without trial.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Yet again with the selective certainty and willingness to “hazard a guess” that your experiences reflect everyone else’s experience.
Yet your opinion on questions hat you don’t want to answer remains “I don’t know”.

Why would anyone fear a “good republican” like Slab Murphy with his own personal Underground torture chamber. A man who testified against him in court ended up dead with a spike driven through his face a few months later. But of course you are right Francie, no one in the community or any other community was afraid of Slab and his ilk because that is your opinion and that alone “fulfills the requirement of proof” for the “myth” of informers in the IRA, the “myth” of IRA sexual abuse and now the “myth” of fear of these violent figures.
Well done Francie. Well done.

Well list these things then for us, tell us WHAT YOU KNOW with such certainty:

1. How many 'informers' can you actually name?

2. How many sexual abusers can you name?

You won't name any of these communities 'living in fear, then and now', maybe you will share 1, and 2, above.

markodaly

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Yet again with the selective certainty and willingness to “hazard a guess” that your experiences reflect everyone else’s experience.
Yet your opinion on questions hat you don’t want to answer remains “I don’t know”.

Francie has it down to a fine art in fairness.

Feign ignorance and write something generic to describe something serious, 'it happens everywhere!'
Move the goalposts if the above doesnt work.
Whatbabout over another issue that moves the goalposts to another pitch.
Or... if that fails, talk about Leo or FG and posts pic or tweet.

Rinse and repeat.

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well list these things then for us, tell us WHAT YOU KNOW with such certainty:

1. How many 'informers' can you actually name?

2. How many sexual abusers can you name?

You won't name any of these communities 'living in fear, then and now', maybe you will share 1, and 2, above.

Maybe you could explain why parents not living in fear would deliver their children to be shot?

markodaly

jm08 wrote: »

No. Not at all. Criminal gangs and Mafia would be wiped out in a few days if British Army troops were after them. When internment was introduced about 2,000 people were interned without trial.

Oh yes, and that is why there was zero crime during the entire troubles and why organsied crime and mafia organisation from Italy to Russia are no longer! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

The PIRA had zero mandate. Its the worst example of creationist evangelical nonsense to say that they did.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

...and the classic Francie response to SF criticism.

Post up a photo of Leo, as if that is an argument.
Are you still sore about the fact that when you type in "Gerry Adams murderer" that one gets 1.5 million hits?
Maybe that is because Gerry who was never in the IRA Adams did indeed order the murder of people.


Anyway, getting back on topic.

So what is SF's position on Hong Kong, seeing as one of their MEP's abstained in bringing China to the International Criminal Court of their illegal clamdown in Hong Kong and MoN's fawning to China in a recent video call?

I never typed in 'Gerry Adams Murderer' in my life.

If you used google for anything other than your bias youmight have come across this, in which the Chinese more or less admit to gilding the lily and the politician's involve spell out their positions.

Nice try mark...but the story died on you.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/china-removes-statement-on-ni-leaders-respect-for-hong-kong-security-laws-39443514.html

Superfoods

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well list these things then for us, tell us WHAT YOU KNOW with such certainty:

1. How many 'informers' can you actually name?

2. How many sexual abusers can you name?

You won't name any of these communities 'living in fear, then and now', maybe you will share 1, and 2, above.

At the moment you just seem to be fishing for information then replaying it back. Look at the last few posts when someone mentioned anything about the troubles, next post if from you with a little "story"

You support Sinn Fein and are clearly passionate about them. You must have read every single book/article on them. Why bother making up stories? they have a murky past. Trying to hide that won't change it.

Making out the PIRA was the local good guy is laughable, majority where psycopaths that had no issues hurting or killing people for no reason than the person was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Remember the Shankill bombing, they knew the target was not in chip shop, they walked in and seen children/women etc. This was not a remote bomb. These people are now seemingly your best mate down the pub?

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Maybe you could explain why parents not living in fear would deliver their children to be shot?

Jesus SS, I have never said that punishment beatings or shootings didn't happen.

Where are the 'communities living in fear, then and now'?

A woman is not a 'community'

markodaly

During the recent trial of the murder of Det. Garda Adrian Donohoe, where Aaron Brady was convicted of capital murder, it was said, and these are in the court records, that:

"The atmosphere of South Armagh was mentioned repeatadly during the trial, with Gardai admitting that people along the border were slow to talk. People can be killed for doing so, it was said during the trial"

Truthvader

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Intimidation of witnesses is a targetted and individual thing. I have several times now said it goes on and went on.

But we are talking about the trope of 'communities living in fear, then and now'.

STILL not a single example of one given.

Two words

Paul. Quinn.

FrancieBrady

Superfoods wrote: »

I know for certainty you never lived anywhere close to the border during the troubles

At the moment you just seem to be fishing for information then replaying it back. Look at the last few posts when someone mentioned anything about the troubles, next post if from you with a little "story"

You support Sinn Fein and are clearly passionate about them. You must have read every single book/article on them. Why bother making up stories? they have a murky past. Trying to hide that won't change it.

Making out the PIRA was the local good guy is laughable, majority where psycopaths that had no issues hurting or killing people for no reason than the person was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Remember the Shankill bombing, they knew the target was not in chip shop, they walked in and seen children/women etc. This was not a remote bomb. These people are now seemingly your best mate down the pub?

I'll ignore that for the nonsense it is.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I never typed in 'Gerry Adams Murderer' in my life.

Maybe you should, you may learn something.

If you used google for anything other than your bias youmight have come across this, in which the Chinese more or less admit to gilding the lily and the politician's involve spell out their positions.

Nice try mark...but the story died on you.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/china-removes-statement-on-ni-leaders-respect-for-hong-kong-security-laws-39443514.html

Doesnt answer the question. What is SF's position on it?

FrancieBrady

Truthvader wrote: »

Two words

Paul. Quinn.

The 'community' that lives in fear, but still elects COnor Murphy over and over again with a massive vote.

Have you never stopped to think about that one?

Can you rationalise it for us?

Truthvader

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The 'community' that lives in fear, but still elects COnor Murphy over and over again with a massive vote.

Have you never stopped to think about that one?

Can you rationalise it for us?

Honestly no. It is absolutely beyond me why or how any normal human being could vote for or support anything connected to Sinn Fein/ IRA. But as you and thousands like you demonstrate time and again you have no problem with the murders and thievery

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Maybe you should, you may learn something.




Doesnt answer the question. What is SF's position on it?

It's there in the article,

Michelle O'Neill wrote:

“I made it very clear that I supported the ‘One Country, Two Systems’ international agreement.”

Chinese Embassy gilds the lily...sindo and the usual suspects swallow the bait. Chinese Embassy withdraws spin...usual suspects slink away...muttering about sinister stuff...etc etc.

FrancieBrady

Truthvader wrote: »

Honestly no. It is absolutely beyond me why or how any normal human being could vote for or support anything connected to Sinn Fein/ IRA. But as you and thousands like you demonstrate time and again you have no problem with the murders and thievery

Nor do you wish to understand.

So would you agree that a massive majority of the community electing somebody in free and democratic elections is not consistent with a lazy trope of 'communities living in fear, then and now'?

If not, what is it 'consistent' with?

jm08

markodaly wrote: »

Oh yes, and that is why there was zero crime during the entire troubles and why organsied crime and mafia organisation from Italy to Russia are no longer! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

The PIRA had zero mandate. Its the worst example of creationist evangelical nonsense to say that they did.

Strangely enough, in most countries, they observe the international convention on human rights which in this kind of case means you can't just round up people and throw them in jail in normal countries.



Still, the UK seems to be determined to leave this organisation, so no doubt in the future they will just round up all criminals and just throw them in jail.

Superfoods

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I'll ignore that for the nonsense it is.

I expected you would ignore it.

So far your fantasy land doesn't include the PIRA walking into a chip shop with a bomb and looking at children knowing they would kill them.

You want everyone to believe you somehow lived in the border during the "troubles" and everything was rosy, apart from the British Army. You have to wonder why they called them the "troubles" and why the Good Friday Agreement was such a momentous occasion in Irish History.

According to you sure everything was grand before it. Sure why did they even bother? It falling apart quickly the little stories isn't it?

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Jesus SS, I have never said that punishment beatings or shootings didn't happen.

Where are the 'communities living in fear, then and now'?

A woman is not a 'community'

A woman is not a community!

A woman. Singular. Because only one child was shot or beaten by your heroes. Really Francie. By arguing in the face of reality you undermine everything you say.

www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-49153095

https://www.rte.ie/archives/2019/1004/1081089-father-denis-faul/

www.irishtimes.com/news/dundalk-beatings-blamed-on-the-ira-1.1118133%3fmode=amp

www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/paramilitaries-control-ni-communities-with-muscle-and-fear-1.2628383%3fmode=amp

https://magill.ie/archive/fear-and-loathing-fermanagh

Maybe now Francie you would be kind enough to provide some links to support your belief that no communities lived in fear during the troubles.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

STILL not a single example of one given.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/torture-gang-vows-to-kill-five-quinn-bosses-38519219.html

Werent you on here last year, laughing at the abduction and torture of Kevin Lumney?
Yes, yes you were!

Truthvader

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nor do you wish to understand.

So would you agree that a massive majority of the community electing somebody in free and democratic elections is not consistent with a lazy trope of 'communities living in fear, then and now'?

If not, what is it 'consistent' with?

A sick society that has lost its way

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Maybe now Francie you would be kind enough to provide some links to support your belief that no communities lived in fear during the troubles.

I never claimed that:

Here is what I said initially

I was totally aware of 'republican figures', but this 'community living in fear stuf' is a complete and utter nonsense here.
In respect of the town I lived in for the best part of 50 years I am not aware of a single 'punishment beating/shooting' or a 'republican figure laying down the law as you say was widespread.

It's an easy thing to print and say, much harder to find evidence of it being a widespread phenomena.
Punishment beatings happened in certain areas, we all know that, but whole communities living in fear across NI and along the border does not for a minute match the reality, it's a gross distortion of the truth, just as representing the area as 'lawless' is.

You still haven't named one single community, much less demonstrate it was widespread.

That is evidence in and of itself that what we have here is a classic 'trope' and a lazy one at that.