Is it just me or have SF vanished?

Superfoods

McMurphy wrote: »

Ok, going by this logic - same IRA Michael Collins and Fine Gael evolved from so?

No

FrancieBrady

Superfoods wrote: »

It seems you have one memory of history, your entitled to your view of course


Don't expect the rest of the World to believe that rubbish

If you can show a sudden switch to the SDLP (here is the bizarre claim >) when a still armed group reached an agreement then show us that in the data. It's all out there on google and on this thread as I posted it before.

Don't listen to the spin of partitionists whose only goal is to big up the SDLP not to mention whinge about their demise. (the most ridiculous whinging I have ever heard...if you do not gain the respect of the voter then you deserve whatever you get at the polls)
If you properly review the period you will see how SF built their electoral performance 'with the armalite in one hand and the ballot box in the other' and gradually took the SDLP vote...not suddenly took it.
They in effect built an electoral machine that was envied by others - fact again.

You don't HAVE to be a shinner or a RA head to accept the facts of history. History is nuanced, it is rarely, if ever, black and white.

Superfoods

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You don't HAVE to be a shinner or a RA head to accept the facts of history. History is nuanced, it is rarely, if ever, black and white.

It looks like we have two versions of history. What actually happened and then the Francie version. So far in your version

• PIRA casued no fear in NI
• Everyone had no issues during the troubles
• Sinn Fein really had the backing of the people, they just never voted for them
• Everything was perfect
• PIRA didn't kill or maim anyone in the North
• Punishment beatings? what the hell are they?
• Monaghan seemed to have a lot of US tourist
• At the end of the day it was the journalist fault
• Oh and the british army.....

Did I forget anything?


Im not a RA head, or a Shinner, I dont support any political organization. FF/FG or any of them. They are all fairly incompedent in my eyes. But if this is what Sinn Fein and supporters plan to do going forward then it is time to put a stop to it. If they are voted in, is the plan for everyone to go and burn all history books so nobody can remember the troubles? remember exactly what Sinn Fein and the PIRA did?

McMurphy

Superfoods wrote: »

No

Bishop of hope wrote: »

Not sure how you jumped to that conclusion.

Quite easily.

Superfoods wrote:

but check into their history and surprise surprise they are part of the PIRA.

[Quote=Bishop of hope [/quote]The provos departed from the IRA who then became known as the official IRA.
Their stance on who and what should be targeted was the reason for the split as far as I know.[/Quote]

It seems the dissidents evolved from the PIRA for much the same reason as the PIRA evolved from the OIRA.

You can't seriously suggest one split from the other therefore must be connected, but stop these connections when the narrative doesn't fit.

Superfoods

McMurphy wrote: »

Quite easily.


It seems the dissidents evolved from the PIRA for much the same reason as the PIRA evolved from the OIRA.

You can't seriously suggest one split from the other therefore must be connected, but stop these connections when the narrative doesn't fit.

You need to read a little bit of history as well. Seems you are listening to the Sinn Fein BS a bit too much

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Again, like the Adams fantasy allegations that don't equate to anything that happens in real life, this theory that the 'electorate' suddenly trusted SF is a nonsense.


It's 25 yrs since the GFA and the southern electorate (the partitionist element) are still going on about distrust but SDLP voters 'suddenly' switched over.

The reality is, the SF election machine didn't really get going until the 90's and they grew their support all the way through despite, censorship, intimidation, a fairly spectacular anti SF bias in the media and the not trivial fact that members of SF were shot dead.

All while the armed wing of Sinn Fein shot dead Fine Gael TDs, Conservative MPs, Ulster Unionist MPs etc and their members. Not a trivial fact either.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

All while the armed wing of Sinn Fein shot dead Fine Gael TDs, Conservative MPs, Ulster Unionist MPs etc and their members. Not a trivial fact either.

Who said it was a trivial fact?

SF grew it's vote all through those events. It is not defending SF nor supporting them to recognise simple fact.

Yet there are those here who are in denial about the nuance and wish to make broad declamatory statement which are not reflective of what was actually happening.

McMurphy

Superfoods wrote: »

You need to read a little bit of history as well. Seems you are listening to the Sinn Fein BS a bit too much

This is supposed to be some kind of rebuttal?

Why not tidy up the post with some facts or details that counter my post that quoted yours?

jh79

McMurphy wrote: »

Quite easily.



The provos departed from the IRA who then became known as the official IRA.
Their stance on who and what should be targeted was the reason for the split as far as I know.

It seems the dissidents evolved from the PIRA for much the same reason as the PIRA evolved from the OIRA.

You can't seriously suggest one split from the other therefore must be connected, but stop these connections when the narrative doesn't fit.

I thought the OIRA split from the PIRA because the leaders of the PIRA were more religious and wanted a catholic 32 county republic while the OIRA wanted a secular socialist Republic.

The Dissidents split because they thought that SF taking part in a partitionist devolved government betrayed their republican principles.

jm08

Superfoods wrote: »

No

Would it be the same IRA that Nobel Peace Prize winner Sean MacBride was Chief of Staff of between 1936-39?

McMurphy

jh79 wrote: »

I thought the OIRA split from the PIRA because the leaders of the PIRA were more religious and wanted a catholic 32 county republic while the OIRA wanted a secular socialist Republic.

The Dissidents split because they thought the SF taking part in a partitionist devolved government betrayed their republican principles.

You're missing the point jh, posters here want to suggest the dissidents are descendants from the provisionals - therefore are one and the same.

This doesn't carry over though when you apply it to the OIRA/PIRA

Doesn't matter a shiny shyte the reason for the split, as I said, if you try and blindly draw those comparisons, you can't just decide to stop because the narrative no longer suits.

Superfoods

McMurphy wrote: »

This is supposed to be some kind of rebuttal?

No

McMurphy wrote: »

Why not tidy up the post with some facts or details that counter my post that quoted yours?

No thanks. So far I have failed to see many facts on this thread. Mainly the ramblings of a single poster who has very questionable knowledge

jm08

jh79 wrote: »

I thought the OIRA split from the PIRA because the leaders of the PIRA were more religious and wanted a catholic 32 county republic while the OIRA wanted a secular socialist Republic.
The Dissidents split because they thought that SF taking part in a partitionist devolved government betrayed their republican principles.

Which is a similar reason to why there was a split in 1969. The Officials wanted to recognise both States and take parliamentary seats in Westminister and Dublin. The Provisionals wanted to keep their Republican principles. I think you may be confusing the Officials position of trying to unite both protestant and catholic workers in a socialist republic and not interject when loyalists attacked catholics, where the Provisionals decided to physically defend catholics against loyalist attacks in the Bogside. Thats when the split occured.

jm08

Superfoods wrote: »

It looks like we have two versions of history. What actually happened and then the Francie version. So far in your version

• PIRA casued no fear in NI. - The PIRA were not attacking nationalists. Their enemies were The Irish State, the British State, the RUC and British Army.
• Everyone had no issues during the troubles. Lots of people had issues during the troubles, but the nationalist community were not being attacked by the PIRA. The nationalist community were under attack from the British State and the PIRA were the only ones defending them. The Irish State was helpless in protecting them.
• Sinn Fein really had the backing of the people, they just never voted for them. Voted in wha? Stormont Gov. was abolished in 1972. The new Assembly wasn't established until 1998. There was one Stormont assembly election in 1982 which Sinn Fein contested, but declared they were not taking their seats. They got 10% of vote, with SDLP getting 18%.
  
• Meanwhile, in Westminister elections:
• SDLP: Generally 1 seat up to 1983. 1987: 3; 1992:4; 1997-2001: 3.
• SF: 1983-87: 1; 1992: 0; 1997: 2; 2001: 4; 2001: 5.
  

• Everything was perfect. It was far from perfect.
• PIRA didn't kill or maim anyone in the North. Bull****.
• Punishment beatings? what the hell are they? They happened.
• Oh and the british army..... What about it?

Did I forget anything? To mention that you have a very limited knowledge and understanding of Ireland's history.

Im not a RA head, or a Shinner, I dont support any political organization. FF/FG or any of them. They are all fairly incompedent in my eyes.

And what about you? With rights come responsbility (i.e., you have a right to a vote, you should use it responsibly or just abstain).

But if this is what Sinn Fein and supporters plan to do going forward then it is time to put a stop to it. If they are voted in, is the plan for everyone to go and burn all history books so nobody can remember the troubles? remember exactly what Sinn Fein and the PIRA did?

The problem you have is that you have not read enough history books. Read a bit more and read books that just don't conform to what you want to believe.

SafeSurfer

To add the reality on planet Francie.

IRA informers - not just overblown but a myth.

Sexual abuse in the republican movement- not just overblown but a myth

Communities living in fear- Another myth because I didn’t experience it so it must not be true, give me an example. Examples given- no still not true.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

To add the reality on planet Francie.

IRA informers - not just overblown but a myth.

Sexual abuse in the republican movement- not just overblown but a myth

I didn't say it was a myth...I said there was no higher incidence of sexual abuse in the IRA than any other organisation.
You were asked to name the 'abusers' we know existed. You FAILED TO EVEN TRY.

I did say the over exaggeration of infiltration and spying within the IRA was part of mythmaking by one side.
You again FAILED TO NAME ANY MORE than two or three when asked.

Communities living in fear- Another myth because I didn’t experience it so it must not be true, give me an example. Examples given- no still not true.

YOU GAVE ZERO examples of 'communities' living in fear. (See a pattern here?) You gave examples of exactly what I said existed. See what I said about Slab Murphy for instance. 99.9% of the people in his community would not have had dealings with him, therefore they lived their lives as normal.
Specific and targeted intimidation does not a 'community' make.

jm08

SafeSurfer wrote: »

IRA informers - not just overblown but a myth.

Whats your angle here. It seems to be just a game to taunt posters with.Who cares about this stuff now. There are far more important things to be thinking of rather than informers.

Sexual abuse in the republican movement- not just overblown but a myth

I don't think the republican movement is any different from every other section of society.

Communities living in fear- Another myth because I didn’t experience it so it must not be true, give me an example. Examples given- no still not true.

The nationalist community feared the British Army, loyalist terrorists and didn't trust the RUC. They did not fear the PIRA in the same way and without the support of the nationalist community, the PIRA would not have lasted 5 minutes.


The unionist community feared the PIRA, INLA and all the other republican paramilitaries. They did not fear the RUC or British Army or various loyalist terrorist groupings.


Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

SafeSurfer

jm08 wrote: »

Whats your angle here. It seems to be just a game to taunt posters with.Who cares about this stuff now. There are far more important things to be thinking of rather than informers.






I don't think the republican movement is any different from every other section of society.






The nationalist community feared the British Army, loyalist terrorists and didn't trust the RUC. They did not fear the PIRA in the same way and without the support of the nationalist community, the PIRA would not have lasted 5 minutes.


The unionist community feared the PIRA, INLA and all the other republican paramilitaries. They did not fear the RUC or British Army or various loyalist terrorist groupings.


Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

Thank you for pointing out that communities did live in fear. A little honesty goes a long way.

Superfoods

The PIRA had no problem killing and attaching nationists. Not sure why people are saying this never happened.

If you stepped out of line you got a beating or knee capping depending on how much you stepped out of line. Anything worse and you "disappeared". Still loads of people the PIRA won't tell the families where these people are buried

FrancieBrady

jm08 wrote: »

Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

Because if you indulge and persist in shouting out tropes and generalisations you can avoid facing certain realities...oldest one in the book and particularly indulged in by partitionists who would rather side with the most belligerent unionist than accept that the republican movement had achieved something. Tired nonsense tbh.

Superfoods

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Because if you indulge and persist in shouting out tropes and generalisations you can avoid facing certain realities...oldest one in the book and particularly indulged in by partitionists who would rather side with the most belligerent unionist than accept that the republican movement had achieved something. Tired nonsense tbh.

What did they achieve?

FrancieBrady

Superfoods wrote: »

What did they achieve?

Ask the vast majority of the republican/nationalist community who have voted for them again and again and again since the GFA, what they 'achieved'.

I.E. do some research in the real world.

jm08

Superfoods wrote: »

The PIRA had no problem killing and attaching nationists. Not sure why people are saying this never happened.

When you say that, what do you mean they had no problem?

Did they do it randomly?
Who were the nationalists they killed?

If you stepped out of line you got a beating or knee capping depending on how much you stepped out of line. Anything worse and you "disappeared". Still loads of people the PIRA won't tell the families where these people are buried

Step out of line in what way? Give me examples of these.


What was worse?


Name some of the loads of people that are missing who the PIRA refuse to tell where these people are buried?

Superfoods

jm08 wrote: »

When you say that, what do you mean they had no problem?

Did they do it randomly?
Who were the nationalists they killed?





Step out of line in what way? Give me examples of these.


What was worse?


Name some of the loads of people that are missing who the PIRA refuse to tell where these people are buried?

Knock yourself out.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/jean-mcconville-s-murder-the-boston-tapes-gerry-adams-and-the-ivor-bell-trial-1.4053933

Google "Gerry Adams The Disappeared" if you want some more information.

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I didn't say it was a myth...I said there was no higher incidence of sexual abuse in the IRA than any other organisation.
You were asked to name the 'abusers' we know existed. You FAILED TO EVEN TRY.

I did say the over exaggeration of infiltration and spying within the IRA was part of mythmaking by one side.
You again FAILED TO NAME ANY MORE than two or three when asked.



YOU GAVE ZERO examples of 'communities' living in fear. (See a pattern here?) You gave examples of exactly what I said existed. See what I said about Slab Murphy for instance. 99.9% of the people in his community would not have had dealings with him, therefore they lived their lives as normal.
Specific and targeted intimidation does not a 'community' make.

Was the murder of Tom Oliver "specific and targeted" or was he just a member of the community who happened to find an IRA arms dump on his land? How about Billy Fox? Was that "specific and targeted", which was vehemently denied by those who carried it out or was he a random member of the community murdered by the IRA?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Jesus SS, I have never said that punishment beatings or shootings didn't happen.

Where are the 'communities living in fear, then and now'?

A woman is not a 'community'

I gave examples. You ignored them and said I didn't give any examples. Difficult to argue with that.





Are the protestants of Fermanagh a community?



Have you even read the links, where members of communities describe their communities as living in fear?


How about the Denis Faul interview. Someone at the heart of his community, who, on a daily basis shares that communities most important events, baptisms, weddings , funerals. Someone who the community shares their most intimate feelings with, who is their confessor. When he describes the community as "living in fear" and being "terrorised by the IRA should we disregard this in favour of your personal experience?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

On the basis that most organisations have had issues pre-awareness days with abuse and predation.
I am not aware that the incidence is any higher in the IRA than it is in like size organisations or demographic groups.
It's an opinion, I have no data to back it up, if you can enlighten us with data (not breathless 'I know of 40 cases'Regina Doherty allegations/what turned out to be fantasy/lies) work away on that one.



Most armies if not all, require a thug element to engage in what they do...that is the reality the world over. They don't have special army police for nothing.
The IRA was no different, I fully agree that thugs attached themselves.

Good to see you agreeing that there is no way of knowing how much infiltration happened.

I live in a border town well known as a republican stronghold, had several bombs during the troubles and notable participants living in it...I would know most people in it and around the area and I can genuinely say that all through the troubles I was never aware of one of these 'overlord' figures, controlling it. I think this is another myth blown out of proportion.

Here is your direct response to my post on the incidence of IRA informers, sexual abuse and community fear.


All not just blown out of proportion but "myths" i.e. a widely held but false belief.


I don't understand what you hope to achieve by trying to argue that communities didn't live in fear during the troubles. I really don't.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Was the murder of Tom Oliver "specific and targeted" or was he just a member of the community who happened to find an IRA arms dump on his land? How about Billy Fox? Was that "specific and targeted", which was vehemently denied by those who carried it out or was he a random member of the community murdered by the IRA?





I gave examples. You ignored them and said I didn't give any examples. Difficult to argue with that.








Are the protestants of Fermanagh a community?



Have you even read the links, where members of communities describe their communities as living in fear?


How about the Denis Faul interview. Someone at the heart of his community, who, on a daily basis shares that communities most important events, baptisms, weddings , funerals. Someone who the community shares their most intimate feelings with, who is their confessor. When he describes the community as "living in fear" and being "terrorised by the IRA should we disregard this in favour of your personal experience?

Those are examples of 'individuals' saying that 'communities were living in fear'.

I am saying that is overblown and exaggerated and a lazy trope.

Take a look at the earliest Peace Movement, savagely critical of the IRA, thosands upon thosands of people openly took part in those marches and parades. In fear of the IRA?
Where the mythical overlords there? Non existent.

Saying something is so, doesn't make it so.

Here is your direct response to my post on the incidence of IRA informers, sexual abuse and community fear.


All not just blown out of proportion but "myths" i.e. a widely held but false belief.


I don't understand what you hope to achieve by trying to argue that communities didn't live in fear during the troubles. I really don't.

Whenever you are ready to name more than a handful of informers and people cnvicted of sexual abuse...we are all ears and eyes.

Funny how quickly your tropes run out of steam when you have to give specifics isn't it? The classic identifier of a 'trope' or stereotype.


P.S. You also said 'communities are living in fear then and NOW'.

Superfoods

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ask the vast majority of the republican/nationalist community who have voted for them again and again and again since the GFA, what they 'achieved'.

I.E. do some research in the real world.

So the PIRA achieved votes since the Good Friday Agreement.


I thought the PIRA no longer existed? Or are you saying what we all know the PIRA/Sinn Fein is the same thing?

FrancieBrady

Superfoods wrote: »

So the PIRA achieved votes since the Good Friday Agreement.


I thought the PIRA no longer existed? Or are you saying what we all know the PIRA/Sinn Fein is the same thing?

Dear me.

I said the 'republican movement', which is much more than PIRA.

Can you please read posts properly?

franciebrady wrote:

Because if you indulge and persist in shouting out tropes and generalisations you can avoid facing certain realities...oldest one in the book and particularly indulged in by partitionists who would rather side with the most belligerent unionist than accept that the republican movement had achieved something. Tired nonsense tbh.

jm08

Superfoods wrote: »

Knock yourself out.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/jean-mcconville-s-murder-the-boston-tapes-gerry-adams-and-the-ivor-bell-trial-1.4053933

Google "Gerry Adams The Disappeared" if you want some more information.

This is what your claim is:

Still loads of people the PIRA won't tell the families where these people are buried

There are three people who have not been found out of 16. They are:
Robert Nairac

Columba McVeigh
Joe Lynskey


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-27235088



Secondly, the PIRA have tried to locate the bodies, so its wrong to say that the PIRA won't tell the families.


Since you have not read that article, can I bring to your attention the verdict of the judge on what the Judge thought of the Boston Tapes and would not accept them as evidence.

In the end, Mr Justice O’Hara took it out of the hands of the jury when he ruled that the two tapes featuring Bell were inadmissible.


The judge was critical of the Belfast Project. He said that McIntyre had an agenda and was not a “neutral interviewer” in respect of Adams, the peace process and the Belfast Agreement.


The issue of supposed confidentiality gave Bell the freedom to tell the truth but also to lie. He added that “while Mr Bell may have felt he was free to tell his version of the truth . . . the difficulty is he also may have felt free to lie, distort, exaggerate, blame and mislead”.

He said McIntyre and Bell had a “clear bias and were out to get Gerry Adams”. He said the tapes would become public at the end of the trial and then “people can make up their own view”.

edit: I note you didn't answer any of my other questions.

FrancieBrady

jm08 wrote: »

edit: I note you didn't answer any of my other questions.

Again and again when you get past the tropes, stereotypes and myths, they are not at all good on specifics.