Is it just me or have SF vanished?

jm08

SafeSurfer wrote: »

How about the Denis Faul interview. Someone at the heart of his community, who, on a daily basis shares that communities most important events, baptisms, weddings , funerals. Someone who the community shares their most intimate feelings with, who is their confessor. When he describes the community as "living in fear" and being "terrorised by the IRA should we disregard this in favour of your personal experience?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't actually understand what Fr Denis Faul actually said in his interview. I'll break it down into points for you and then you can go and read it when hopefully you will comprehend what he was actually saying.


1. The nationalist community (his flock) were reliant on the PIRA to keep law and order because the nationalist community had no trust in the RUC, the judicial system or the British Army.


2. He was critical of the British Goverment because as he said ''they never seem to even see the Northern Ireland community as a whole with its problems.'' He said that his hope lies with the Irish Government instead of the British Gov.


3. Fr Faul actually advocated that all republican prisoners should be just released in 1980 because they were unlikely to reoffend.



Now, read the interview properly.
https://www.rte.ie/archives/2019/1004/1081089-father-denis-faul/

Superfoods

jm08 wrote: »

There are three people who have not been found out of 16. They are:
Robert Nairac

Columba McVeigh
Joe Lynskey

So 3 people to you is nothing?



Suppose that is one view, the rest of the civilized World doesn't.

jm08

Superfoods wrote: »

So 3 people to you is nothing?

Suppose that is one view, the rest of the civilized World doesn't.

Did I say it was nothing. It was just not loads of people as you claimed. (see your exact quote below). You then supply a link about Jean McConville who has been located.



You then claimed that the PIRA won't tell the families which is a lie. Unfortunately there are three they cannot find (though I'm not sure if anyone is looking for Nairac's body. You seem to be unaware that there was this set up to locate them in 1999.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Commission_for_the_Location_of_Victims%27_Remains

Still loads of people the PIRA won't tell the families where these people are buried

FrancieBrady

jm08 wrote: »

Did I say it was nothing. It was just not loads of people as you claimed. (see your exact quote below). You then supply a link about Jean McConville who has been located.



You then claimed that the PIRA won't tell the families which is a lie. Unfortunately there are three they cannot find (though I'm not sure if anyone is looking for Nairac's body. You seem to be unaware that there was this set up to locate them in 1999.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Commission_for_the_Location_of_Victims%27_Remains

ICLVR told the Executive that they were satisfied with the engagement of the IRA in helping to find the missing. Yet again the mythmaking persists and guess who are making the myths...again.

Bishop of hope

McMurphy wrote: »

Quite easily.



The provos departed from the IRA who then became known as the official IRA.
Their stance on who and what should be targeted was the reason for the split as far as I know.

It seems the dissidents evolved from the PIRA for much the same reason as the PIRA evolved from the OIRA.

You can't seriously suggest one split from the other therefore must be connected, but stop these connections when the narrative doesn't fit.[/quote]

Doesn't make your original post right.
The provos are distinct from the old IRA.
Sinn Féin as we know, it now is also distinct from the original Sinn Fein.
There is of course a narrative that they aren't and that seeks to somehow justify continuation of the original struggle of both, but that's not the case.

Superfoods

Bishop of hope wrote: »

It seems the dissidents evolved from the PIRA for much the same reason as the PIRA evolved from the OIRA.

You can't seriously suggest one split from the other therefore must be connected, but stop these connections when the narrative doesn't fit.

Doesn't make your original post right.
The provos are distinct from the old IRA.
Sinn Féin as we know, it now is also distinct from the original Sinn Fein.
There is of course a narrative that they aren't and that seeks to somehow justify continuation of the original struggle of both, but that's not the case.

"Up da Ra" says different

FrancieBrady

Bishop of hope wrote: »

Doesn't make your original post right.
The provos are distinct from the old IRA.
Sinn Féin as we know, it now is also distinct from the original Sinn Fein.
There is of course a narrative that they aren't and that seeks to somehow justify continuation of the original struggle of both, but that's not the case.

A partitionist comfort blanket there particularly in the last paragraph.

Bishop of hope

Bishop of hope wrote: »

There is of course a narrative that they aren't and that seeks to somehow justify continuation of the original struggle of both, but that's not the case.

To.me....theres no difference and shinnerz are every bit as hypocritical to critise dissident

Bishop of hope

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A partitionist comfort blanket there particularly in the last paragraph.

I'd expect no less of a response from your side, I stated as much.
But doesn't change the facts.
If you could ask this man, my fellow County man BTW, whom I heard talk on it a few times, he'd tell you what SF had turned into and away from.
We weren't all as sheltered from the truth as some would have you believe.
Populist politics replaced the ideals of both the original IRA and Sinn Fein.
Partionist is just a meaningless insult thrown out sometimes when the truth gets too hard to bear.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruairí_Ó_Brádaigh

SafeSurfer

jm08 wrote: »

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't actually understand what Fr Denis Faul actually said in his interview. I'll break it down into points for you and then you can go and read it when hopefully you will comprehend what he was actually saying.


1. The nationalist community (his flock) were reliant on the PIRA to keep law and order because the nationalist community had no trust in the RUC, the judicial system or the British Army.


2. He was critical of the British Goverment because as he said ''they never seem to even see the Northern Ireland community as a whole with its problems.'' He said that his hope lies with the Irish Government instead of the British Gov.


3. Fr Faul actually advocated that all republican prisoners should be just released in 1980 because they were unlikely to reoffend.



Now, read the interview properly.
https://www.rte.ie/archives/2019/1004/1081089-father-denis-faul/

Thank you for your points above and for the advice to “read the interview properly”

Something which was difficult to do because the interview was in fact a television interview on Today Tonight, but of course you knew that and didn’t just “read” the short excerpts from the interview and then suggest I hadn’t “read” it properly.

Your first point is inaccurate.

What the good priest actually said when asked about policing was:

Brian Farrell: Outside of the political crime area does the catholic community make use of the RUC?

Fr. Denis Faul: oh yes they certainly make use of them outside the political crime area and they are probably quite an efficient police force in regard to traffic offences, burglaries, non political robberies, children, drugs and so on Certainty they go to them immediately.

Nowhere in the interview does Fr. Faul mention a call for “all republican prisoners” to be released.

He says

“These people (the provos) hold the catholic community in terror.

And again later:

“They hold the catholic community in absolute terror”



Asked if the PIRA were comparable to the mafia he says:

“Very much a mafia situation indeed, in addition to the murders that’s going on you have robbery, blackmail and extortion...,,,,hijacking of cars, the taking over of houses.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Thank you for your points above and for the advice to “read the interview properly”

Something which was difficult to do because the interview was in fact a television interview on Today Tonight, but of course you knew that and didn’t just “read” the short excerpts from the interview and then suggest I hadn’t “read” it properly.

Your first point is inaccurate.

What the good priest actually said when asked about policing was:

Brian Farrell: Outside of the political crime area does the catholic community make use of the RUC?

Fr. Denis Faul: oh yes they certainly make use of them outside the political crime area and they are probably quite an efficient police force in regard to traffic offences, burglaries, non political robberies, children, drugs and so on Certainty they go to them immediately.

Nowhere in the interview does Fr. Faul mention a call for “all republican prisoners” to be released.

He says

“These people (the provos) hold the catholic community in terror.

And again later:

“They hold the catholic community in absolute terror”



Asked if the PIRA were comparable to the mafia he says:

“Very much a mafia situation indeed, in addition to the murders that’s going on you have robbery, blackmail and extortion...,,,,hijacking of cars, the taking over of houses.

And we know Faul had a bitter falling out with SF. His 'individual' opinion is no more reliable than yours or mine.

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And we know Faul had a bitter falling out with SF. His 'individual' opinion is no more reliable than yours or mine.

You keep telling yourself that Francie.

Only the opinions of Sinn Fein fans matter.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

You keep telling yourself that Francie.

Only the opinions of Sinn Fein fans matter.

No, the opinions of everyone are there to be validated and scrutinised.

Like you Faul had a motivation to indulge a trope. A trope he most certainly wasn't pushing when he was not at loggerheads with SF leaders.

SafeSurfer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Tbf it is valid info.....as someone with a personal grudge/dislike may find it difficult to arrive at a objective viewpoint and their view may be partisan?

That would be fair comment until we see all views other than the Sinn Fein narrative being dismissed as “partisan”, from renowned journalists and historians to the Independent Monitoring Commission.
When it suits of course.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

That would be fair comment until we see all views other than the Sinn Fein narrative being dismissed as “partisan”, from renowned journalists and historians to the Independent Monitoring Commission.
When it suits of course.

It's not a SF narrative...never heard them talking about it actually.

It is comment from somebody who lives in one of these 'communities' tired of lazy generalisations and politicians looking for votes by branding them as 'lawless' and 'in fear'.
It is largely bull****.

jm08

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Thank you for your points above and for the advice to “read the interview properly”

Something which was difficult to do because the interview was in fact a television interview on Today Tonight, but of course you knew that and didn’t just “read” the short excerpts from the interview and then suggest I hadn’t “read” it properly.

Well, I have listened to it and I still don't think you have listened to the whole interview (which was in 1984 - after the hunger strikes and before the collapse of the Anglo-Irish Agreement).


Fr Faul's point was that mothers were coming to him and asking him to do something because their children were being enticed into the PIRA because the RUC/Security forces were intimidating them and holding them up. He said that the British Government needed to actually support nationalists and provide neutral security and safety. He said he had made 1500 representations to the RUC and nothing was done about any of his complaints. He said that anyone up to the age of 25 should be released from prison because they were unlikely to offend again.



When Fr Faul gave that interview, there must have been some hope of a compromise with the Anglo-Irish Agreement. Unionists rejected it so that hope was crushed for nationalists.

What the good priest actually said when asked about policing was:

Brian Farrell: Outside of the political crime area does the catholic community make use of the RUC?

That might have been the first thing he said, but he did say that nationalists were being picked up, intimidated and held for hours by the security forces. If the British Gov. sorted that out, his solution might have worked. But it didn't.

Asked if the PIRA were comparable to the mafia he says:

“Very much a mafia situation indeed, in addition to the murders that’s going on you have robbery, blackmail and extortion...,,,,hijacking of cars, the taking over of houses.

Yes, he said the PIRA threatened them if they thought to report them to the RUC/Security forces.


The message I got from that interview was:
1. Catholics had no one to turn to for safety, so they were stuck with the PIRA.

2. Fr Faul thought that if the British Gov. listened to what he was advising them to do (such as release prisoners etc), young men & women would not be enticed into the PIRA.
3. Obviously, with the collapse of the Anglo-Irish Agreement, the catholics were left on their own again.

SafeSurfer

jm08 wrote: »

Well, I have listened to it and I still don't think you have listened to the whole interview (which was in 1984 - after the hunger strikes and before the collapse of the Anglo-Irish Agreement).


Fr Faul's point was that mothers were coming to him and asking him to do something because their children were being enticed into the PIRA because the RUC/Security forces were intimidating them and holding them up. He said that the British Government needed to actually support nationalists and provide neutral security and safety. He said he had made 1500 representations to the RUC and nothing was done about any of his complaints. He said that anyone up to the age of 25 should be released from prison because they were unlikely to offend again.



When Fr Faul gave that interview, there must have been some hope of a compromise with the Anglo-Irish Agreement. Unionists rejected it so that hope was crushed for nationalists.





That might have been the first thing he said, but he did say that nationalists were being picked up, intimidated and held for hours by the security forces. If the British Gov. sorted that out, his solution might have worked. But it didn't.





Yes, he said the PIRA threatened them if they thought to report them to the RUC/Security forces.


The message I got from that interview was:
1. Catholics had no one to turn to for safety, so they were stuck with the PIRA.

2. Fr Faul thought that if the British Gov. listened to what he was advising them to do (such as release prisoners etc), young men & women would not be enticed into the PIRA.
3. Obviously, with the collapse of the Anglo-Irish Agreement, the catholics were left on their own again.

Did you hear him calling for the “release of all republican prisoners” as stated in your earlier post?

Junkyard Tom

jm08 wrote: »

three people who have not been found out of 16 ... the PIRA have tried to locate the bodies

There are bodies all over West Cork that were buried there by the 'good old' IRA when they were shooting and killing the antecedents of the RUC/UDR and people who colluded/informed.

There was an older Unionist woman who lived near Macroom whose body was even dug up and moved to prevent it from being retrieved by loved-ones after the war of Independence was over.

But they were the good IRA and the PIRA were bad IRA.

Jinglejangle69

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

There are bodies all over West Cork that were buried there by the 'good old' IRA when they were shooting and killing the antecedents of the RUC/UDR and people who colluded/informed.

There was an older Unionist woman who lived near Macroom whose body was even dug up and moved to prevent it from being retrieved by loved-ones after the war of Independence was over.

But they were the good IRA and the PIRA were bad IRA.

Same people back then thought it was OK to bury bodies as the same people nowadays that think it's OK to bury bodies.

I like to class myself as a person who doesn't think its OK.

What about you?

Junkyard Tom

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Same people back then thought it was OK to bury bodies as the same people nowadays that think it's OK to bury bodies.

I like to class myself as a person who doesn't think its OK.

What about you?

I think it's an awful thing to do - killing people is bad enough without denying their loved-ones a funeral.

Jinglejangle69

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I think it's an awful thing to do - killing people is bad enough without denying their loved-ones a funeral.

Do you agree PIRA are an awful organisation?

Junkyard Tom

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Do you agree PIRA are an awful organisation?

The PIRA no longer exist. As for the PIRA, I wouldn't blame young people who joined them to fight back, I'd blame them for what they did as individuals while they were in the IRA alright.

Out of interest, if you had been living in the Bogside or West Belfast in 1969, 1970, 1971 and watched your people being murdered by the RUC/British Army what would you have done?

jm08

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Did you hear him calling for the “release of all republican prisoners” as stated in your earlier post?

What he said was to ''begin releases from the prisons'' as a solution. (The second was to do something about the judiciary).


Brian Farrell then interjected and said that ''obviously, the British authorities see all Provos as the same kind of people and they would be afraid of letting some out.''


Fr Faul then went onto say that there would be no harm releasing anyone who was picked up at 16 or 17 years of age and were serving life sentences because they acted as look-outs and probably did not know what was going on. He advocated that both loyalist and republican prisoners & women should be released. He said members of the ''Official Group'' should be released and that there are many prisoners in Long Kesh who have totally turned away from violence, that there are prisoners in Long Kesh where the means of how they were put there are questionable in terms of blackmail, torture, chicacory and roguery in the interrogation centres and the courts. He said that if a lot of these prisoners were released you would find that a lot of the support for the Provos would stop. He goes onto say that there are about 50,000 people who are relatives and friends of these prisoners who are the mainstay of Provo support and are the ones who are marching, etc.



So, to sum up, he did advocate for most if not all prisoners to be released. The issue was that the British Goverment needed to do their bit by improving the justice system for nationalists.


The section that he talks about this starts about 5 mins in.



https://www.rte.ie/archives/2019/1004/1081089-father-denis-faul/


The rules of engagement with the PIRA by the nationalist community was that they showed no mercy to informers or spies. If they stuck to those rules, they were ok with them. Of course this meant that the British Security Forces tried to use various means to force such information out of the nationalist community.

Edgware

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The PIRA no longer exist. As for the PIRA, I wouldn't blame young people who joined them to fight back, I'd blame them for what they did as individuals while they were in the IRA alright.

Out of interest, if you had been living in the Bogside or West Belfast in 1969, 1970, 1971 and watched your people being murdered by the RUC/British Army what would you have done?

Maybe do what Gerry Adams did. Take the the Homer Simpson option and let someone else do it.

Bonniedog

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The PIRA no longer exist. As for the PIRA, I wouldn't blame young people who joined them to fight back, I'd blame them for what they did as individuals while they were in the IRA alright.

Out of interest, if you had been living in the Bogside or West Belfast in 1969, 1970, 1971 and watched your people being murdered by the RUC/British Army what would you have done?

They should have stayed in their beds, because it was all for nothing.

SafeSurfer

jm08 wrote: »

What he said was to ''begin releases from the prisons'' as a solution. (The second was to do something about the judiciary).


Brian Farrell then interjected and said that ''obviously, the British authorities see all Provos as the same kind of people and they would be afraid of letting some out.''


Fr Faul then went onto say that there would be no harm releasing anyone who was picked up at 16 or 17 years of age and were serving life sentences because they acted as look-outs and probably did not know what was going on. He advocated that both loyalist and republican prisoners & women should be released. He said members of the ''Official Group'' should be released and that there are many prisoners in Long Kesh who have totally turned away from violence, that there are prisoners in Long Kesh where the means of how they were put there are questionable in terms of blackmail, torture, chicacory and roguery in the interrogation centres and the courts. He said that if a lot of these prisoners were released you would find that a lot of the support for the Provos would stop. He goes onto say that there are about 50,000 people who are relatives and friends of these prisoners who are the mainstay of Provo support and are the ones who are marching, etc.



So, to sum up, he did advocate for most if not all prisoners to be released. The issue was that the British Goverment needed to do their bit by improving the justice system for nationalists.


The section that he talks about this starts about 5 mins in.



https://www.rte.ie/archives/2019/1004/1081089-father-denis-faul/


The rules of engagement with the PIRA by the nationalist community was that they showed no mercy to informers or spies. If they stuck to those rules, they were ok with them. Of course this meant that the British Security Forces tried to use various means to force such information out of the nationalist community.

Here was your point of clarification to my improper “reading” of the television interview.



“3. Fr Faul actually advocated that all republican prisoners should be just released in 1980 because they were unlikely to reoffend.”



You could have simply answered that no he didn’t say what you claim he said in your clarification after telling me to “read it properly”.

Given that after numerous “readings” you interpret the words of Fr. Faul for other posters with words that were never said, your interpretation of the words that were actually said must be suspect too.

Again. Did Denis Faul call for “all republican prisoners to be released” as you stated?

Junkyard Tom

Bonniedog wrote: »

They should have stayed in their beds, because it was all for nothing.

You could probably say that about anyone who got involved.

Bonniedog

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

You could probably say that about anyone who got involved.

Especially when your side surrendered and did not achieve its objectives, would you not agree?

timthumbni

Bonniedog wrote: »

Especially when your side surrendered and did not achieve its objectives, would you not agree?

They only had one mission. To bomb and murder to supposedly “unite”and get da England out of da Ireland as the wee patty’s day sign said.

They failed miserably as anyone with an iota of intelligence could have told them. But they wouldn’t listen. Their depraved actions have guaranteed there will never be a “United ireland”

But sure at least they made a few pounds washing diesel. Like the good wee republicans they are.

Superfoods

jm08 wrote: »

The rules of engagement with the PIRA by the nationalist community was that they showed no mercy to informers or spies. If they stuck to those rules, they were ok with them. Of course this meant that the British Security Forces tried to use various means to force such information out of the nationalist community.

Bulls**t. That's the new rosy version that Sinn Fein and a few of you on here want to tell us. Oh they only went after informers, apart from that they provided a friendly neighbourhood service

People got beating for any sort of stepping out of line.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/paramilitaries-step-up-violence-of-punishment-attacks-1.285012

At around 7 p.m. a gang of men forced their way into a house in Brewster Court and attacked a 19-year-old youth. They smashed his leg in several places with an iron bar and also struck him with considerable force on the arms and body. The youth suffered severe chest injuries and one of his lungs collapsed. His recovery will take a long time and he is likely to be permanently handicapped.

Police and medical sources say the paramilitaries are well aware that the type of injury inflicted by weapons such as metal bars, pickaxes, hammers and clubs - sometimes studded with nails - are significantly worse than injuries caused by hand guns.

That's the level of scumbag the PIRA......anyone defending that needs to really look at themselves. All of course protected by your local friendly Sinn Fein politician. Yes "Up da Ra" Sinn Fein "Up da RA"