Is it just me or have SF vanished?

SafeSurfer

McMurphy wrote: »

Which brings me back to this one.

What IRA did the Continuity IRA and Real IRA evolve from?

Was it those pesky Mexicans again?

jm08

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Yes I can distinguish the difference between the Old IRA, Official IRA, New IRA, Continuity IRA, Real, IRA, IRLA , IRM, INLA, IPLO.

What is your point?

So you can't distinguish any difference between the PIRA and the rest?


(Fair play to you that you can distinguish the difference between New IRA and Continuity IRA, but know nothing about the Provisionals).

McMurphy

[

SafeSurfer wrote: »

What IRA did the Continuity IRA and Real IRA evolve from?

Was it those pesky Mexicans again?

The dissidents evolved from the provisionals, there's no doubt about that. Who do you think the provisionals evolved from though? Obviously the "Old IRA" were a sugarcoated airy fairy group who tickled their opponents into submission.

What's with the Mexican reference? Just felt the need to post scutter did we?

SafeSurfer

jm08 wrote: »

So you can't distinguish any difference between the PIRA and the rest?


(Fair play to you that you can distinguish the difference between New IRA and Continuity IRA, but know nothing about the Provisionals).

I still don’t know what point you are trying to make. Do you have a question I can help you with?

jm08

SafeSurfer wrote: »

I still don’t know what point you are trying to make. Do you have a question I can help you with?

That the Provisionals took the political route and laid down their arms while the rest have not (and some have merged together).


Dissident republicans are those who do not support the Peace Process.
Provisional IRA do support the Peace Process.


Why do you not want to as they say ''give peace a chance''?

Hamsterchops

jm08 wrote: »

So you can't distinguish any difference between the PIRA and the rest?

(Fair play to you that you can distinguish the difference between New IRA and Continuity IRA, but know nothing about the Provisionals).

I think the main distinction between the PIRA and the new IRAs is the kill rate which was much higher under the Provisionals. The Provos had much bigger bombs, which could kill many more people with just one bang! they also shot many more people, they had loads of semtex, mortars and rocket launches.....

9/11 changed everything, ie no more "spectaculars" hence death & destruction on a large scale would be frowned upon, ergo the New/Continuity IRA have no teeth.

Thank God.

SafeSurfer

McMurphy wrote: »

[





The dissidents evolved from the provisionals, there's no doubt about that. Who do you think the provisionals evolved from though? Obviously the "Old IRA" were a sugarcoated airy fairy group who tickled their opponents into submission.

What's with the Mexican reference? Just felt the need to post scutter did we?

The provisionals formed from the split in the anti Treaty IRA in 1969. The dissidents of their day.

It’s interesting that you use the term “evolve” rather than “split”.

Who did Oglaigh na hEireann, the Irish defence forces “evolve” from.
Hint: It wasn’t the Mexicans.

McMurphy

SafeSurfer wrote: »

I still don’t know what point you are trying to make. Do you have a question I can help you with?

The suggestion was made by the poster superfood that all the dissidents could be traced back to the provisionals, and were therefore one and the same apparently. It led to me querying why he should stop at the provisionals? Surely if you're using that train of thought you can go right the way back to the times of Dev and Collins?

jm08

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I love this. Are you talking about the IRA or the IRA? Because the IRA is completely different from the IRA. And then there is the IRA. They are separate from the IRA and the IRA.

Perhaps we should just refer to them all as murderous, terrorist bastards.

Yes, they were. That includes De Valera (who served time in prison) and is believed to have been the one who had Michael Collins assinated, Sean MacBride (former Chief of Staff of the IRA), who went onto win the Nobel Peace Prize, Frank Aiken who was involved in sectarian murders went onto be a Fianna Fail Government Minister.

The Free State Government (Fine Gael's roots) executed 81 of their former War of Independence colleagues during the Civil War.

Count yourself very lucky that the birth of your nation only entailed cheating a few Maori who were not able to retaliate.

jm08

Hamsterchops wrote: »

I think the main distinction between the PIRA and the new IRAs is the kill rate which was much higher under the Provisionals. The Provos had much bigger bombs, which could kill many more people with just one bang! they also shot many more people, they had loads of semtex, mortars and rocket launches.....

9/11 changed everything, ie no more "spectaculars" hence death & destruction on a large scale would be frowned upon, ergo the New/Continuity IRA have no teeth.

Thank God.

The PIRA had a lot more targets of the British Army, RUC, UDR etc than all these dissident groups have now.



What a difference it makes reforming policing in NI. Pity they didn't do that back in the 70s.

SafeSurfer

jm08 wrote: »

Yes, they were. That includes De Valera (who served time in prison) and is believed to have been the one who had Michael Collins assinated, Sean MacBride (former Chief of Staff of the IRA), who went onto win the Nobel Peace Prize, Frank Aiken who was involved in sectarian murders went onto be a Fianna Fail Government Minister.

The Free State Government (Fine Gael's roots) executed 81 of their former War of Independence colleagues during the Civil War.

Count yourself very lucky that the birth of your nation only entailed cheating a few Maori who were not able to retaliate.

You are alleging now that De Valera was “the one who had Michael Collins assassinated”.

What evidence do you have for that?

If one examines the available evidence from various witnesses and testimonies it strongly suggests he was not behind the assassination of Collins.

Of course the film “Michael Collins” implies he did. It is also full of historical inaccuracies for dramatic effect, such as car bombs.

Hamsterchops

jm08 wrote: »

The PIRA had a lot more targets of the British Army, RUC, UDR etc than all these dissident groups have now.

Much more to it than just British army targets. No more massive car bombs outside City centre shops, no more shooting policemen, no attacks on judiciary either! The whole climate has change since 9/11 and the GFA which brought violent Republicanism in from the cold.

jm08

SafeSurfer wrote: »

You are alleging now that De Valera was “the one who had Michael Collins assassinated”.

What evidence do you have for that?

If one examines the available evidence from various witnesses and testimonies it strongly suggests he was not behind the assassination of Collins.

Of course the film “Michael Collins” implies he did. It is also full of historical inaccuracies for dramatic effect, such as car bombs.

I'm not going to debate if De Valera was the one who had Michael Collins assisinated, but he did know about it and did nothing to stop it. Dev never spoke about Collins or expressed regret for his assisination by the way.


Its going to be good fun over the next few years when all of this will be dragged up again, there will be loads of documentaries and new books about it. It will be interesting to see how FFG cope with this revived debate now that they are in Government together!


So, now that you managed to hijack this thread down another rabbit hole, what do you think now of Sean MacBride, Former Chief of Staff of IRA, Founder of Amnesty International, Nobel Peace Prize winner.

Truthvader

Do we have to play the "which IRA was it" game?

A person who would murder or maim other people at random in pursuit of any perceived injustice or entitlement is sub human in my view regardless of what group they claim to belong to or when they did it.

As to the difference between the dissidents and anyone else; I see none, bar one group having got what they wanted and/or deciding to settle after a 30 year sick criminal campaign (which they still glorify and celebrate) while the other groups are continuing to murder and maim people because they have not got what they wanted.

SafeSurfer

jm08 wrote: »

That the Provisionals took the political route and laid down their arms while the rest have not (and some have merged together).


Dissident republicans are those who do not support the Peace Process.
Provisional IRA do support the Peace Process.


Why do you not want to as they say ''give peace a chance''?

You must remember that the provisional IRA were themselves dissidents. They are the incarnation of the IRA that support the most recent peace process.

However I am in agreement with you. I am not arguing that the PIRA is not committed to the peace process. However the PIRA is but one iteration of the IRA. One of the many offshoots from the original civil war split in 1922.

The legitimacy claimed by the provisionals was based on the signatures of 7 members of the second Dail who were elected in 1921. This they claimed gave them the status of the only legitimate Irish Republican Army and the Army Council of that army as the “legitimate government of the Irish Republic”.
In 1969 one man, The sole survivor of these 7 members of the 2nd Dail, Joseph Clarke declared that the provisional IRA was the provisional government of the Irish Republic. Hence provos.
This is what their “legitimacy” is based on. The opinion of one man.

SafeSurfer

jm08 wrote: »

I'm not going to debate if De Valera was the one who had Michael Collins assisinated, but he did know about it and did nothing to stop it. Dev never spoke about Collins or expressed regret for his assisination by the way.


Its going to be good fun over the next few years when all of this will be dragged up again, there will be loads of documentaries and new books about it. It will be interesting to see how FFG cope with this revived debate now that they are in Government together!


So, now that you managed to hijack this thread down another rabbit hole, what do you think now of Sean MacBride, Former Chief of Staff of IRA, Founder of Amnesty International, Nobel Peace Prize winner.

You mean you are not going to provide any evidence to back up your claim that De Valera was behind Collins’ assasination?

As for asean Mc Bride, you know he believed Collins was in Cork to negotiate with anti treaty forces and was killed by a member of his own convoy?

A great man. To paraphrase a previous posters ridiculous comment about John Hume, his legacy was one of failure until he left the IRA.

maccored

SafeSurfer wrote: »

[Collins]A great man.

... who was in the ira

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Are there still “peace walls” in Northern Ireland?

Maybe you could answer honestly.

First built in the 1920s (then) still in existence today as a majority of residents (communities) (69%) believe they are still necessary for their safety.

But If Francie says it ain’t so it ain’t so. Is that how this works?

Typical carry on. Shift the goalposts to talking about general fears when it was clear we were talking about the 'mythical (still) IRA overlords'.

You are away out on a limb here. The sensationalism grounded on nothing but lazy journalism and commentary by people who, it is not to hard to see, have a vested interest in promoting the fiction.
It is an insult to communities like mine and all over NI.

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Typical carry on. Shift the goalposts to talking about general fears when it was clear we were talking about the 'mythical (still) IRA overlords'.

You are away out on a limb here. The sensationalism grounded on nothing but lazy journalism and commentary by people who, it is not to hard to see, have a vested interest in promoting the fiction.
It is an insult to communities like mine and all over NI.

When you can’t answer play the insult card. Do you answer any questions?

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

When you can’t answer play the insult card. Do you answer any questions?

What did I not answer?

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What did I not answer?

Why were there and continue to be peace walls protecting communities in Northern Ireland? In fact more since the GFA.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Why were there and continue to be peace walls protecting communities in Northern Ireland? In fact more since the GFA.

To keep communities apart.

What has that to do with communities living in fear of paramilitaries from their own side.

Are we still trying to shift the goalposts here?

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

To keep communities apart.

What has that to do with communities living in fear of paramilitaries from their own side.

Are we still trying to shift the goalposts here?

And why was it necessary to keep communities apart?

McMurphy

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Why were there and continue to be peace walls protecting communities in Northern Ireland? In fact more since the GFA.

The peace walls aren't there to protect communities from paramilitaries though, they were put in place to separate the communities from each other, youths throwing stones etc.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

And why was it necessary to keep communities apart?

This just another attempt to change the goalposts. I already accepted that communities lived in fear...what we are talking about is the claim that they lived and are living NOW in fear of IRA overlords.

You quoted this by Fr Denis Faul, after he had fallen out with SF and the IRA.

“These people (the provos) hold the catholic community in terror.

And again later:

“They hold the catholic community in absolute terror”



Asked if the PIRA were comparable to the mafia he says:

“Very much a mafia situation indeed, in addition to the murders that’s going on you have robbery, blackmail and extortion...,,,,hijacking of cars, the taking over of houses.

Please stop the dishonest pivoting to pretending we were discussing 'fear' in general.

SafeSurfer

McMurphy wrote: »

The peace walls aren't there to protect communities from paramilitaries though, they were put in place to separate the communities from each other, youths throwing stones etc.

And yet most sectarian murders occurred In their shadow.
Without twisting yourselves in knots is it not time to admit that some communities in some locations in Northern Ireland lives in fear during the troubles and some communities in some locations continue to live in fear?

McMurphy

SafeSurfer wrote: »

And yet most sectarian murders occurred In their shadow.
Without twisting yourselves in knots is it not time to admit that some communities in some locations in Northern Ireland lives in fear during the troubles and some communities in some locations continue to live in fear?

Sectarian murders occurred in the shadows of the peace walls? I don't get your point on this? What are you saying the peace walls didn't prevent murders happening Do you realised they weren't manned physically with guards preventing anyone from venturing from one side to the other ?

"Without tying myself in a knot" - you want me to admit some communities in the north were living in fear during the troubles?

Some communities feared the British Security Forces - some feared loyalist paramilitaries, some feared republican paramilitaries, and some unionists just feared nationalists and vise versa.

Was that ever denied by anyone?

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

This just another attempt to change the goalposts. I already accepted that communities lived in fear...what we are talking about is the claim that they lived and are living NOW in fear of IRA overlords.

You quoted this by Fr Denis Faul, after he had fallen out with SF and the IRA.



Please stop the dishonest pivoting to pretending we were discussing 'fear' in general.

At last am admission of truth. Well done France. You should do it more often. You might like it.

SafeSurfer

McMurphy wrote: »

Sectarian murders occurred in the shadows of the peace walls? I don't get your point on this? What are you saying the peace walls didn't prevent murders happening Do you realised they weren't manned physically with guards preventing anyone from venturing from one side to the other ?

"Without tying myself in a knot" - you want me to admit some communities in the north were living in fear during the troubles?

Some communities feared the British Security Forces - some feared loyalist paramilitaries, some feared republican paramilitaries, and some unionists just feared nationalists and vise versa.

Was that ever denied by anyone?

Look back over the thread.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

At last am admission of truth. Well done France. You should do it more often. You might like it.

Absolutely unbelievable debating.

Here is what you were originally stating:

safesurfer wrote:

So the idea of local IRA godfathers such as Slab Murphy being powerful and feared figures in their communities, is, not just blown out of proportion, but like informers and sexual abuse in the republican organisation, “this is another myth blown out of proportion”.

So the notion of IRA informers, IRA sexual abuse and local IRA godfathers are not just exaggerated but are a MYTH? A widely held but false belief?

Is that your core belief?

Your house is close to the border and your experience of not being aware of any powerful local republican figures is certainly at odds with many other people living in similar situations. Confirmation bias may be at play.

When you were unable to name a community 'living in fear of IRA overlords' you pivot to pretending you were talking about 'fear' in general.

That says it all.