Is it just me or have SF vanished?

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If local knowledge is correct it validates what Bertie was told, what the IMC says and what Connor Murphy said.
Peculiar that you want to accept one bit of local knowledge and not another bit.
Similar to those who accept the allegation that Adams was responsible for Jean McConville's death but not the allegation that she was an informer from the SAME source.

The murder is still a vicious and terrible act, it was IMO a criminal act. If those who are alleged to have done it are embedded deeply in SF and are directing the party...then there is a problem.

I don't think they are.

No more peculiar than You referring to IMC reports when they support your position and dismissing them when they are at odds with it.

Pkiernan

Will Gerry tell MLMD to boot this moron from the party?

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/sinn-fein-councillor-apologises-over-lanzarote-holiday-39470068.html

FrancieBrady

Truthvader wrote: »

But I'm happy to support promote and justify the party that was responsible for most of it.

Because I am not a hypocrite. I accepted the premise of the GFA and it's goal of bringing people into the democratic fold.

You would only be creating the same suprematist society by continuing to exclude.
I am more than happy to vote for them over 20 yeats since tge GFA

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

No more peculiar than You referring to IMC reports when they support your position and dismissing them when they are at odds with it.

Its you guys that seem to have the problem.
Blanch and his conspiracy theories and all that

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Its you guys that seem to have the problem.
Blanch and his conspiracy theories and all that

One post ago you stated “I am not a hypocrite”.

However referencing IMC reports to support your position and dismissing those referenced by other posters is nothing if not hypocritical.

jm08

SafeSurfer wrote: »

One post ago you stated “I am not a hypocrite”.

However referencing IMC reports to support your position and dismissing those referenced by other posters is nothing if not hypocritical.

What other reports are there?

Truthvader

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Because I am not a hypocrite. I accepted the premise of the GFA and it's goal of bringing people into the democratic fold.

You would only be creating the same suprematist society by continuing to exclude.
I am more than happy to vote for them over 20 yeats since tge GFA

A society not run and controlled by murderers is not supremacist. Plus no-one has ever been "excluded" - save those murdered by Gerry & Co who are excluded in a most permanent way. And finally its not hypocritical to vote for any of the various other political parties not run by thugs. Many of the other parties also have a good moron representation if that is your thing.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

One post ago you stated “I am not a hypocrite”.

However referencing IMC reports to support your position and dismissing those referenced by other posters is nothing if not hypocritical.

I only referenced the IMC report because it tallies with what I was told by locals whom I know personally. I said this a long time ago.

The people who have an issue with it are you & blanch etc. Youse like to cherry pick from sources...for instance, the most bizarre one, believing the former IRA man claiming Gerry was in the 'RA but not the inconvenient bit that J. McConville was an informer.

FrancieBrady

Truthvader wrote: »

A society not run and controlled by murderers is not supremacist. Plus no-one has ever been "excluded" - save those murdered by Gerry & Co who are excluded in a most permanent way. And finally its not hypocritical to vote for any of the various other political parties not run by thugs. Many of the other parties also have a good moron representation if that is your thing.

The hypocrisy is, inviting people into the democratic fold and then inventing a ceiling they cannot pass. That is exclusion.

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I only referenced the IMC report because it tallies with what I was told by locals whom I know personally. I said this a long time ago.

The people who have an issue with it are you & blanch etc. Youse like to cherry pick from sources...for instance, the most bizarre one, believing the former IRA man claiming Gerry was in the 'RA but not the inconvenient bit that J. McConville was an informer.

Please quote where I said I didn’t believe J. Mc Conville was an informer.

When it comes to cherry picking Francie, you are on the top rung of the ladder.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Please quote where I said I didn’t believe J. Mc Conville was an informer.

When it comes to cherry picking Francie, you are on the top rung of the ladder.

I was speaking generally.

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The hypocrisy is, inviting people into the democratic fold and then inventing a ceiling they cannot pass. That is exclusion.

You are critical of others hypocrisy without identifying your own.
There is no invented ceiling in democracy. When SF win enough seats to form a government with willing partners they will be in power. The way things are going this may well be sooner than we expect. When a Sinn Fein Taoiseach is elected they have my support in their role as Taoiseach, like those from any other party. There won’t be any of this any democratic “not my Taoiseach” nonsense from this voter.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

You are critical of others hypocrisy without identifying your own.
There is no invented ceiling in democracy. When SF win enough seats to form a government with willing partners they will be in power. The way things are going this may well be sooner than we expect. When a Sinn Fein Taoiseach is elected they have my support in their role as Taoiseach, like those from any other party. There won’t be any of this any democratic “not my Taoiseach” nonsense from this voter.

Truthvader has an oft expressed ceiling. I was answering him/her.
Delighted to know you will be a democrat.

Truthvader

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The hypocrisy is, inviting people into the democratic fold and then inventing a ceiling they cannot pass. That is exclusion.

Everyone has always been "invited into the democratic process" . If you enter that process as a party steeped in murder and thuggery which you continue to celebrate and glorify while the party is controlled in the background by the same criminal thugs it is not "hypocricy" for the other parties who do not share the same criminal agenda to decide it is not a good idea to share power with you.

FrancieBrady

Truthvader wrote: »

Everyone has always been "invited into the democratic process" . If you enter that process as a party steeped in murder and thuggery which you continue to celebrate and glorify while the party is controlled in the background by the same criminal thugs it is not "hypocricy" for the other parties who do not share the same criminal agenda to decide it is not a good idea to share power with you.

Sadly for your exclusionary politics, nobody, neither the British, Irish nor those who signed up to the multiparty agreement had to admit that they were wrong or did the wrong thing. Even though many would have the same opinion of the British and Loyalists as you have of SF.

SafeSurfer

jm08 wrote: »

What other reports are there?

The 4th report which claimed senior members of Sinn Fein authorised the Northern Bank Robbery and the 18th report which claimed it didn’t authorise the murder of Paul Quinn.
The vindication is latched upon. The vilification not so much.

Truthvader

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Sadly for your exclusionary politics, nobody, neither the British, Irish nor those who signed up to the multiparty agreement had to admit that they were wrong or did the wrong thing. Even though many would have the same opinion of the British and Loyalists as you have of SF.

And finally there you have it folks. Underneath all the spoof and smokescreen Francie doesn't really think all the murder and thuggery was wrong or that Gerry did the wrong thing. Sinn Fein IRA exposed again but whining about being "excluded" because they simply cannot ever understand that murder and savagery are in fact quite wrong and unacceptable - even if "authorised"

McMurphy

Truthvader wrote: »

And finally there you have it folks. Underneath all the spoof and smokescreen Francie doesn't really think all the murder and thuggery was wrong or that Gerry did the wrong thing. Sinn Fein IRA exposed again but whining about being "excluded" because they simply cannot ever understand that murder and savagery are in fact quite wrong and unacceptable - even if "authorised"

That's not what that post says at all, I don't even know how you could interpret it that way unless of course you were on the wind up.

FrancieBrady

Truthvader wrote: »

And finally there you have it folks. Underneath all the spoof and smokescreen Francie doesn't really think all the murder and thuggery was wrong or that Gerry did the wrong thing. Sinn Fein IRA exposed again but whining about being "excluded" because they simply cannot ever understand that murder and savagery are in fact quite wrong and unacceptable - even if "authorised"

Typical Truth answer.

Nobody had to admit they did the wrong thing or acted wrong...the British, Irish, and all who signed the multiparty agreement.

Despite some of them doing the same things as the IRA, in Truth's wee moral world only the IRA have to pay the price.

Hypocritical, wrong headed and to not put a tooth in it, stupid.

After every war/conflict these simple things happen and once agreements are signed or treaties agreed, democracy returns and proceeds...our own states beginnings being a case in point. Europe after every conflagation/war and conflict.

But the RA...the RA ...the RA!!!

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Typical Truth answer.

Nobody had to admit they did the wrong thing or acted wrong...the British, Irish, and all who signed the multiparty agreement.

Despite some of them doing the same things as the IRA, in Truth's wee moral world only the IRA have to pay the price.

Hypocritical, wrong headed and to not put a tooth in it, stupid.

After every war/conflict these simple things happen and once agreements are signed or treaties agreed, democracy returns and proceeds...our own states beginnings being a case in point. Europe after every conflagation/war and conflict.

But the RA...the RA ...the RA!!!

Not entirely true. In many wars one side has to admit they were entirely in the wrong and take responsibility for the conflict in its entirety. One can argue forever who was the most wrong but one can’t argue that in conflict no one has to admit they did wrong, that “after every war/conflict these simple things happen”.

There is of course an argument that wars between people are very different to wars between nations but even that distinction is contested in the context of Northern Ireland.

dundalkfc10

What's the chances our FF and FG leaders don't say but what about Sinn Féin 1st day the Dáil in back?

1/50 Yes
10/1 No

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Not entirely true. In many wars one side has to admit they were entirely in the wrong and take responsibility for the conflict in its entirety. One can argue forever who was the most wrong but one can’t argue that in conflict no one has to admit they did wrong, that “after every war/conflict these simple things happen”.

There is of course an argument that wars between people are very different to wars between nations but even that distinction is contested in the context of Northern Ireland.

Is there a point in there somewhere?

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Not entirely true. In many wars one side has to admit they were entirely in the wrong and take responsibility for the conflict in its entirety. One can argue forever who was the most wrong but one can’t argue that in conflict no one has to admit they did wrong, that “after every war/conflict these simple things happen”.

There is of course an argument that wars between people are very different to wars between nations but even that distinction is contested in the context of Northern Ireland.

Is there a point in there somewhere?

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Is there a point in there somewhere?

That your sweeping generalisations are again untrue.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

That your sweeping generalisations are again untrue.

So do tell us, which side was required to admit that what they done/didn't do was wrong when they signed up to the GFA? Here is the list of those who signed up:


Irish Government,
United Kingdom Government

APNI,
NIWC,
NI Labour Coalition,
Sinn Fein,
UUP,
SDLP,
UDP,
PUP.

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So do tell us, which side was required to admit that what they done/didn't do was wrong when they signed up to the GFA? Here is the list of those who signed up:


Irish Government,
United Kingdom Government

APNI,
NIWC,
NI Labour Coalition,
Sinn Fein,
UUP,
SDLP,
UDP,
PUP.

You are missing the point. The point being that not all conflicts end in “ah sure were all as bad as each other” type resolutions.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

You are missing the point. The point being that not all conflicts end in “ah sure were all as bad as each other” type resolutions.

I didn't say they did.

They end with agreements or treaty's.

Take a look at the Paris Treaty for instance. That included what the defeated countries had to do to fulfill their part of the agreement to the Treaty. Including reparations, adjustment of territories and the demand to hand over war criminals.

There is no similar demands in the GFA off any of the signatories. Here is the multi party agreement.

https://www.peaceagreements.org/viewmasterdocument/556

Superfoods

Pkiernan wrote: »

Will Gerry tell MLMD to boot this moron from the party?

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/sinn-fein-councillor-apologises-over-lanzarote-holiday-39470068.html

I don’t see the up roar from the Sinn Fein faithful that we had after the golf event....looks like SF as usual have different rules

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I didn't say they did.

They end with agreements or treaty's.

Take a look at the Paris Treaty for instance. That included what the defeated countries had to do to fulfill their part of the agreement to the Treaty. Including reparations, adjustment of territories and the demand to hand over war criminals.

There is no similar demands in the GFA off any of the signatories. Here is the multi party agreement.

https://www.peaceagreements.org/viewmasterdocument/556

This is what you said

“After every war/conflict these simple things happen and once agreements are signed or treaties agreed, democracy returns and proceeds...our own states beginnings being a case in point. Europe after every conflagation/war and conflict”

The Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, etc might disagree with you.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

This is what you said

“After every war/conflict these simple things happen and once agreements are signed or treaties agreed, democracy returns and proceeds...our own states beginnings being a case in point. Europe after every conflagation/war and conflict”

The Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, etc might disagree with you.

The purpose of a treaty or agreement is to allow democracy to return in the aftermath of a war/conflict. A Treaty will have the terms of that agreement.

There is no requirement in the GFA or The Multi party agreement for any side to admit they were wrong to do what they did. Truthvader's point was that it is wrong to vote for SF until they do this.

Do you agree or disagree?