Is it just me or have SF vanished?

Runaways

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There is a time limit on these temporary power...dont worry (afaik gaurds enforcement powers may be limited,but anyone want a good kick up the hole for acting maggot unnecessarly at the min)

That’s what I mean. I wouldn’t want to be crossing one of them if I was even the worst little scrote right now.

Shefwedfan

Runaways wrote: »

One of the heads of the Gardai just the other day said ‘we have to park human rights when it comes to pandemic crisis’

I’m for it in this instance but the temporary powers had better just be that. Or they soon will have real trouble on their hands as they go forward.

Based on your lack of ability to deal with a TV license inspector, what exactly would you do to the Garda if the powers are not temporary?

blanch152

Runaways wrote: »

One of the heads of the Gardai just the other day said ‘we have to park human rights when it comes to pandemic crisis’

I’m for it in this instance but the temporary powers had better just be that. Or they soon will have real trouble on their hands as they go forward.

You put that statement in bold in inverted commas which means you are quoting it as a direct quotation from the relevant Garda, so I assume you can provide a link to that exact statement.

If not, it you are paraphrasing, then it is another disingenuous post about the Gardai.

blanch152

HerrKuehn wrote: »

Do you think people would be willing to pay more tax for better health service/social housing?
In Germany, someone on 18k would pay about 4k in income taxes. Would people be willing to do that here?

I think the water charges showed us that many people don't want to pay anything for any improvement. I paid it myself, I live in DLR and I don't really expect to have any issues with the water supply. I thought it would be a good idea to invest in water infrastructure so that the issues that exist in other parts of the country could be fixed.

Politicians in Ireland generally follow a path of least resistance. They don't want to make any difficult decisions.

Sinn Fein specifically seems to have held 2 general ideas:

1) Tax high earners more

2) Magic money tree
- currently apple
- 800bn-1trillion in untaxed oil/gas (2012) https://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/26417
- fish (2009), apparently the EU stole 200bn worth of fish from us.

I always love the fish one.

For a start, if it were true that the fish were the saviours of the Irish economy, about 20% of the population would have to be fishermen to collect all those fish. Have any of the muppets who proposed that back over the years thought about that?

Shefwedfan

blanch152 wrote: »

You put that statement in bold in inverted commas which means you are quoting it as a direct quotation from the relevant Garda, so I assume you can provide a link to that exact statement.

If not, it you are paraphrasing, then it is another disingenuous post about the Gardai.

Seemingly, we do not have to provide links anymore. According to the charter.


So we can make up any sort of sh*t and not get expected to get called out on it. :P Well that is according to some posters!!!

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Seemingly, we do not have to provide links anymore. According to the charter.


So we can make up any sort of sh*t and not get expected to get called out on it. :P Well that is according to some posters!!!

These are the rules afaik


Your welcome to.call anyone out on it...but they arent obligied to provide a link (this isnt regarded as a serious forum,hence the lower standred accepted!)

Shefwedfan

blanch152 wrote: »

I always love the fish one.

For a start, if it were true that the fish were the saviours of the Irish economy, about 20% of the population would have to be fishermen to collect all those fish. Have any of the muppets who proposed that back over the years thought about that?

If we have 200bn worth of fish I am hitting the seas tomorrow

FrancieBrady

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Seemingly, we do not have to provide links anymore. According to the charter.


So we can make up any sort of sh*t and not get expected to get called out on it. :P Well that is according to some posters!!!

What did I make up in the post you lost your mind over?

I'll quote it, just to refresh your memory. Please, if you are just going to deflect away from it...don't embarrass yourself answering at all.

franciebrady wrote:

What is it you are contesting?

That a deal was done and the DUP walked away?

Why the DUP were able to walk away and no pressure was applied by Westminister?

That the SoS specifically pointed at the DUP as being the main block to a deal?

The list of rights that the people of Northern Ireland have now that they didn't have before?

TheCitizen

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

Eh, you can't wish away previous utterings by SF - remember their proposal to cap public pay?

No?

Well, unfortunately for us many medics do. Likewise, their proposals for 70+% marginal rate of income tax, again it hasn't gone away you know - people still remember those things, especially when it comes time to move one's family back home.

I had to look that up.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/sinn-fein-proposes-100000-cap-for-public-sector-workers-26792427.html

It's no longer part of their fiscal policy so not sure what relevance there is in bringing it up now. As I said medics on high earnings won't vote SF, they never did, but that doesn't mean they will upsticks and emigrate with their families en masse if a modest tax was brought in on earnings over and above 150k

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

And it's not political leadership courage that's needed, it's electoral courage.

It's both that's needed.

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

Finally, may of the parties have promises to deliver free GP care, single-tier health services, etc - seems only SF exepct to be able to recruit 500 GPs and several thousand nurses over the course of a single electoral cycle - and that is really concerning. Most parties regard the reform of the health sector as reqiuring at least a decade - only SF seem to think it will take shorter, despite what they've written in Better4Health.

Fair enough, we understand that Shinnernomics is based on magic money trees but throwing numbers around like 500 GPs just shows how utterly bonkers and dangerous they are - if the emphasis is on numbers then you are going to get reduced quality - it takes 10 years to train a GP - so answer me this given the age profile of our current cadre of GPs, how will SF grow the number of GPs in the country by, effecively 25%?

Likewise the number of nurses - about 3,800 nurses and midwives were registered for the first time in 2018 so SF envisages doubling the number of such registrations over the course of a Dail - how? And in reality a greater number would be needed to allow for retirements, departures from nursing etc

It takes 4 years to train a general nurse, so where are all these extra nurses coming from?

SF made lots of promises and yes they probably wouldn't deliver on all of them, but that's not much different than other parties.

Ok so now you're criticising SF for saying they have an aspiration to do things quicker than others. You're probably right it would take 10 years to bring in those changes, there's no harm in having an aspiration top do it quicker where possible is there?

Anyway, to repeat it's not just down to money, the political will needs to be there to bring about necessary reform in the health service and with FFG they've been in power since forever and time and time again they haven't taken the opportunity to do that, but you want to keep returning them to power time and time again and yet you're here complaining about inefficiencies in the health service. See that there is what is bonkers pal; folk like you who keep doing the same thing over and over again but expect a different result.

Sultan_of_Ping

TheCitizen wrote: »

I had to look that up.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/sinn-fein-proposes-100000-cap-for-public-sector-workers-26792427.html

It's no longer part of their fiscal policy so not sure what relevance there is in bringing it up now. As I said medics on high earnings won't vote SF, they never did, but that doesn't mean they will upsticks and emigrate with their families en masse if a modest tax was brought in on earnings over and above 150k



It's both that's needed.



SF made lots of promises and yes they probably wouldn't deliver on all of them, but that's not much different than other parties.

Ok so now you're criticising SF for saying they have an aspiration to do things quicker than others. You're probably right it would take 10 years to bring in those changes, there's no harm in having an aspiration top do it quicker where possible is there?

Anyway, to repeat it's not just down to money, the political will needs to be there to bring about necessary reform in the health service and with FFG they've been in power since forever and time and time again they haven't taken the opportunity to do that, but you want to keep returning them to power time and time again and yet you're here complaining about inefficiencies in the health service. See that there is what is bonkers pal; folk like you who keep doing the same thing over and over again but expect a different result.

So the answer to "how" is deflect, deflect deflect......bit like their taxation policy, their housing policy, their transport policy, even their social policy - it never stands up to even the most modest scrutiny. Which is pretty typical of most populist parties - throw from gurus around, make it sound plausible, then when they get called out deflect, blame the "elites" or the "vested interests" - a pretty classic failure dynamic

Shefwedfan

TheCitizen wrote: »

I had to look that up.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/sinn-fein-proposes-100000-cap-for-public-sector-workers-26792427.html

It's no longer part of their fiscal policy so not sure what relevance there is in bringing it up now. As I said medics on high earnings won't vote SF, they never did, but that doesn't mean they will upsticks and emigrate with their families en masse if a modest tax was brought in on earnings over and above 150k

Modest tax??? They want a 5% on top of what people pay already.

thomasdylan

TheCitizen wrote: »

I had to look that up.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/sinn-fein-proposes-100000-cap-for-public-sector-workers-26792427.html

It's no longer part of their fiscal policy so not sure what relevance there is in bringing it up now. As I said medics on high earnings won't vote SF, they never did, but that doesn't mean they will upsticks and emigrate with their families en masse if a modest tax was brought in on earnings over and above 150k.

Parties like Labour, Social Democrats and the Greens are very popular with doctors, they certainly were in the last election. I don't think it's Sinn Fein's tax policies that make them unlikely to get doctors' votes so much as things like:

That they abruptly switched from saying that consultants pay should be dropped to that they would hire 500 more consultants
That they don't know how they are going to hire any of those 500 consultants or understand the difficulties in getting consultants
That their health spokesperson is incredibly weak
Michelle O'Neill was an extremely unpopular minister for health in the North
Dessie Ellis is linked to 50 odd murders

Sultan_of_Ping

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

So the answer to "how" is deflect, deflect deflect......bit like their taxation policy, their housing policy, their transport policy, even their social policy - it never stands up to even the most modest scrutiny. Which is pretty typical of most populist parties - throw from gurus around, make it sound plausible, then when they get called out deflect, blame the "elites" or the "vested interests" - a pretty classic failure dynamic

At the risk of stating the bleedin' obvious, it's like when lads on a football thread start going on about what they would do in a manager's place by proffering some completely obvious solution (I'd have the team score more goals, maybe tighten up at the back). Yeah, the professional manager is so ignorant of the basics of football that he has overlooked all the obvious and easy solutions just to keep his team losing.

The really deeply entrenched problems in our society do not have easy solutions, and anyone offering them can usually be ignored.

TheCitizen

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

So the answer to "how" is deflect, deflect deflect......bit like their taxation policy, their housing policy, their transport policy, even their social policy - it never stands up to even the most modest scrutiny. Which is pretty typical of most populist parties - throw from gurus around, make it sound plausible, then when they get called out deflect, blame the "elites" or the "vested interests" - a pretty classic failure dynamic

You're just rambling now

TheCitizen

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Modest tax??? They want a 5% on top of what people pay already.

Yes pal, I've seen it said elsewhere that it would translate to 5k tax on a salary of 250k. If you're on 250 k a year and you were asked to contribute 5k to a fund that would modernise the health service for all including rich people I would regard that as a modest increase. Let's say a family with someone earning 250k decides to emigrate because of that tax increase how much would it cost them to relocate?

In Ireland the rate of tax incl USC and PRSI on higher earnings is 52% in Sweden it's 56.9%. Sweden has a better health service and probably better other public services across the board, because they pay for it and those that can pay pay a bit more.

In Ireland though the "I'm alright Jack" crowd don't want to pay extra tax for better services and then of course there's FG fanboys and others who probably aren't earning those salaries themselves stupidly arguing on their behalf because it's the "Shinners" that are proposing it. Feckin eejits :pac:

TheCitizen

TheCitizen wrote: »

Yes pal, I've seen it said elsewhere that it would translate to 5k tax on a salary of 250k. If you're on 250 k a year and you were asked to contribute 5k to a fund that would modernise the health service for all including rich people I would regard that as a modest increase. Let's say a family with someone earning 250k decides to emigrate because of that tax increase how much would it cost them to relocate?

In Ireland the rate of tax incl USC and PRSI on higher earnings is 52% in Sweden it's 56.9%. Sweden has a better health service and probably better other public services across the board, because they pay for it and those that can pay pay a bit more.

In Ireland though the "I'm alright Jack" crowd don't want to pay extra tax for better services and then of course there's FG fanboys and others who probably aren't earning those salaries themselves stupidly arguing on their behalf because it's the "Shinners" that are proposing it. Feckin eejits :pac:

Sweden also tax lower earners more (a lot more than Ireland), would you support that? FG have been very clear they don't want to tax the income of lower earners. (edited to say apart from the USC)

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/so-you-want-a-swedish-style-welfare-state-that-ll-be-more-tax-please-1.4188165

CtevenSrowder

TheCitizen wrote: »

Yes pal, I've seen it said elsewhere that it would translate to 5k tax on a salary of 250k. If you're on 250 k a year and you were asked to contribute 5k to a fund that would modernise the health service for all including rich people I would regard that as a modest increase. Let's say a family with someone earning 250k decides to emigrate because of that tax increase how much would it cost them to relocate?

In Ireland the rate of tax incl USC and PRSI on higher earnings is 52% in Sweden it's 56.9%. Sweden has a better health service and probably better other public services across the board, because they pay for it and those that can pay pay a bit more.

In Ireland though the "I'm alright Jack" crowd don't want to pay extra tax for better services and then of course there's FG fanboys and others who probably aren't earning those salaries themselves stupidly arguing on their behalf because it's the "Shinners" that are proposing it. Feckin eejits :pac:

The difference between the likes of Sweden and Ireland is not what the higher earners pay but the lower earners.

If you want a Scandinavian-esque style society then it is the lower earners who are going to have to start coughing up. No doubt if FG or FF did such a thing you'd be front and centre leading the charge against it.

Sultan_of_Ping

TheCitizen wrote: »

You're just rambling now

No, not at all.

I asked how will SF deliver 500 GPs and 3000+ nurses......you didn't answer.

Feel free to answer now or link to the document that explains how this will be achieved.

CtevenSrowder

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

No, not at all.

I asked how will SF deliver 500 GPs and 3000+ nurses......you didn't answer.

Feel free to answer now or link to the document that explains how this will be achieved.

He wants to tax the Consultants to pay for it.

CtevenSrowder

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

The difference between the likes of Sweden and Ireland is not what the higher earners pay but the lower earners.

If you want a Scandinavian-esque style society then it is the lower earners who are going to start coughing up. No doubt if FG or FF did such a thing you'd be front and centre leading the charge against it.

Pretty much, and it's worth pointing out just how centrist FG are. The myth they are hard right doesn't really stand up to scrutiny, imo.

TheCitizen

Deleted User wrote: »

Sweden also tax lower earners more (a lot more than Ireland), would you support that? FG have been very clear they don't want to tax the income of lower earners. (edited to say apart from the USC)

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/so-you-want-a-swedish-style-welfare-state-that-ll-be-more-tax-please-1.4188165

The tax increase SF are proposing would still be less than Sweden.

I would support paying more across the board but obviously tiered more heavily towards those who can pay more if - and this is the big if - we had politicians who had the political will to improve services. It's not just a money issue, it also involves the political courage to implement changes that certain vested cohorts will resist.

FFG have thrown money at the health system for years but reform hasn't happened. Often times they throw their hands in the air in defeat like some FFG posters here on this thread and claim it's not possible to fix the health system. Angola as Brian Cowen described it.

CtevenSrowder

TheCitizen wrote: »

The tax increase SF are proposing would still be less than Sweden.

I would support paying more across the board but obviously tiered more heavily towards those who can pay more if - and this is the big if - we had politicians who had the political will to improve services. It's not just a money issue, it also involves the political courage to implement changes that certain vested cohorts will resist.

We already have one of the most progressive tax systems in the world. If FF or FG even mention the idea of taxing lower earners more the knives would come out, particularly from the likes of you. The "vested cohorts" include the unions. Good luck to anyone trying to take them on, particularly after we get past this crisis.

TheCitizen wrote: »

FFG have thrown money at the health system for years but reform hasn't happened. Often times they throw their hands in the air in defeat like some FFG posters here on this thread and claim it's not possible to fix the health system. Angola as Brian Cowen described it.

And what will Sinn Fein do? Other than throw more money at it?

TheCitizen

TheCitizen wrote: »

The tax increase SF are proposing would still be less than Sweden.

I would support paying more across the board but obviously tiered more heavily towards those who can pay more if - and this is the big if - we had politicians who had the political will to improve services. It's not just a money issue, it also involves the political courage to implement changes that certain vested cohorts will resist.

FFG have thrown money at the health system for years but reform hasn't happened. Often times they throw their hands in the air in defeat like some FFG posters here on this thread and claim it's not possible to fix the health system. Angola as Brian Cowen described it.

You are fairly at odds with SF's views on this tbf, and society in general. We have a reasonably fair tax system here.

Yurt2

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

The difference between the likes of Sweden and Ireland is not what the higher earners pay but the lower earners.

If you want a Scandinavian-esque style society then it is the lower earners who are going to have to start coughing up. No doubt if FG or FF did such a thing you'd be front and centre leading the charge against it.

https://www.oecd.org/ctp/tax-policy/taxing-wages-sweden.pdf

A 2-D observation paying no attention as to how taxation works in both Sweden and Ireland.

The taxation burden on the average worker in both Ireland and Sweden is almost exactly the same @ approx 25% of income.

The tax wedge in Sweden is made up of far higher employer contributions.

Yurt!

Yurt! wrote: »

https://www.oecd.org/ctp/tax-policy/taxing-wages-sweden.pdf

A 2-D observation paying no attention as to how taxation works in both Sweden and Ireland.

The taxation burden on the average worker in both Ireland and Sweden is almost exactly the same @ approx 25% of income.

The tax wedge in Sweden is made up of far higher employer contributions.

Of course it is, but lower earners pay way more tax there all the same.

Would you support raising income taxes for lower earners?

CtevenSrowder

Yurt! wrote: »

https://www.oecd.org/ctp/tax-policy/taxing-wages-sweden.pdf

A 2-D observation paying no attention as to how taxation works in both Sweden and Ireland.

The taxation burden on the average worker in both Ireland and Sweden is almost exactly the same @ approx 25% of income.

The tax wedge in Sweden is made up of far higher employer contributions.

That doesn't refute what I said.

Shefwedfan

TheCitizen wrote: »

Yes pal, I've seen it said elsewhere that it would translate to 5k tax on a salary of 250k. If you're on 250 k a year and you were asked to contribute 5k to a fund that would modernise the health service for all including rich people I would regard that as a modest increase. Let's say a family with someone earning 250k decides to emigrate because of that tax increase how much would it cost them to relocate?

In Ireland the rate of tax incl USC and PRSI on higher earnings is 52% in Sweden it's 56.9%. Sweden has a better health service and probably better other public services across the board, because they pay for it and those that can pay pay a bit more.

In Ireland though the "I'm alright Jack" crowd don't want to pay extra tax for better services and then of course there's FG fanboys and others who probably aren't earning those salaries themselves stupidly arguing on their behalf because it's the "Shinners" that are proposing it. Feckin eejits :pac:

Not you pal


MIght be interesting if you reviewed the below: https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/personal-income-tax-rate?continent=europe


I think we can all agree lots of Ireland dont pay anything, maybe it is time they put hands into pockets for once.....

TheCitizen

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

We already have one of the most progressive tax systems in the world. If FF or FG even mention the idea of taxing lower earners more the knives would come out, particularly from the likes of you. The "vested cohorts" include the unions. Good luck to anyone trying to take them on, particularly after we get past this crisis.


And what will Sinn Fein do? Other than throw more money at it?

You have no solutions, just barbed smartass comments. The health service needs reform are you disputing that?

They came up with a solution, a plan called Slainte Care which has cross party approval. The questions was asked in a debate on health on RTE pre the election, they all agreed to implementing Slainte Care. The question was then asked how would the introduction of Slainte Care be funded, SF rep said a higher rate of tax on earnings over and above 150k. Simon Harris FG said "oh no sure the Consultants would all leave".

So in other words FG won't implement Slainte Care because they won't bring in the mechanisms necessary to fund it's introduction and implement it. They won't take on the vested interests who are their cronies. Sure sure, They'll pay lip service to introducing Slainte Care but like their Universal Health Insurance plan from more than a decade ago, they haven't the political will to actually implement it.

From the article I posted earlier. Are we to believe SF supporters want to add 25% more income tax on to lower earners?

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/so-you-want-a-swedish-style-welfare-state-that-ll-be-more-tax-please-1.4188165

The numbers: the top 20 per cent of income earners here are taxed at 33 per cent of their income; the bottom 20 per cent at 12 per cent. In Sweden (to take a random example), the top quintile are taxed at 36 per cent of their income, the bottom at . . . 37 per cent. This covers both direct and indirect taxes – with the latter hitting lower earners much more steeply because they spend a greater share of their income on rent, food, etc.

TheCitizen

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Not you pal


MIght be interesting if you reviewed the below: https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/personal-income-tax-rate?continent=europe


I think we can all agree lots of Ireland dont pay anything, maybe it is time they put hands into pockets for once.....

Oh I agree. Lots of rich people with tax avoidance schemes and big corporations that pay next to fúck all in tax. Not even talking about taxing them the going rate seeing as everyone's afraid they'll upsticks and move elsewhere, they pay a pittance.