Is it just me or have SF vanished?

Sultan_of_Ping

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think you are wrong here.

The funds have been paid by Apple. They have no more say on what happens them only what we agreed with them should happen
We appealed the ruling so the funds were put in Escrow under the control of our Minister of Finance. We agreed with Apple to appoint the Bank of America as a custodian of the money..we didn't have to do that.
If we drop the appeal the money continues to it's destination and whatever is decided by the countries with a claim on it, legally. The only thing stopping that is our agreement with Apple, which I don't know is legally binding or a gentleman's agreement.
Apple can continue to appeal and if they win, demand repayment. But they have zero say on what happens the money until then if we want it to be that way.





Ok...I looked at it again.
Here is the EU saying it themselves.
I will take the EU's word on what was happening, not the US's, if that is ok.



Do you accept now (in the interests of honest debate) that there are two sides to this story?

Again, you demonstrate you don't know how this works.

First, BNY Mellon are escrow agents not BoA.

Second, "the funds were put in Escrow under the control of our Minister of Finance"? No, this was explained to you earlier the Minister for Finance does not have control of the funds, they are under the supervision of BNYM, as escrow agent and custodian.

The investment and management of the escrow fund is jointly overseen by the Minister and Apple through an investment committee.

Third, there is no "gentleman's agreement." There is a legal deed in place covering all this.

Fourth, our status as appellant is no less and no greater than Apple's so even if drop our appeal, Apple can continue and the funds stay where they are until the matter is determined.

Fifth, by virtue of the deed covering the escrow, Apple have quite a lot of say as to what happens to the money. They are not only represented on the committee overseeing the investment of it, they are the other party to the escrow deed.

Runaways

This was (conveniently) ignored yesterday. I suggest we all watch the clip. This is how he actually thinks. If you’re earning less than 5k a month you don’t exist or are a welfare cheat.

This is the man. This is Fine Gael. FF had a gift up till recently of being all things to all men. FG aren’t even pretending they only exist for a certain payscale
This has rocketed to the top of list of things that are going to haunt him.


**he doesn’t even realize he’s admitting people aren’t being paid enough never mind the minimum wage bracket.

https://twitter.com/ubuntulad/status/1245807485270872065?s=21

ThunbergsAreGo

Runaways wrote: »

This was (conveniently) ignored yesterday. I suggest we all watch the clip. This is how he actually thinks. If you’re earning less than 5k a month you don’t exist or are a welfare cheat.

This is the man. This is Fine Gael. FF had a gift up till recently of being all things to all men. FG aren’t even pretending they only exist for a certain payscale
This has rocketed to the top of list of things that are going to haunt him.


https://twitter.com/ubuntulad/status/1245807485270872065?s=21

No that's not what he says.

He says someone on 220 a week working 20 hours would be better off on the 350 a week.

It would not surprise me to be honest. People are opportunistic.

Also with the kids off I'd imagine sorting minding etc for less than you could get sitting at home would irk people.

Shefwedfan

Runaways wrote: »

This was (conveniently) ignored yesterday. I suggest we all watch the clip. This is how he actually thinks. If you’re earning less than 5k a month you don’t exist or are a welfare cheat.

This is the man. This is Fine Gael. FF had a gift up till recently of being all things to all men. FG aren’t even pretending they only exist for a certain payscale
This has rocketed to the top of list of things that are going to haunt him.


**he doesn’t even realize he’s admitting people aren’t being paid enough never mind the minimum wage bracket.

I have lived in Ireland long enough to know we have a certain percentage of useless f**kers......of course if they think they can get more or similar while sitting on ass at home they will do it



Of course, if you or your twitter mate can prove this is incorrect, I will change my opinion

Yurt2

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I have lived in Ireland long enough to know we have a certain percentage of useless f**kers......of course if they think they can get more or similar while sitting on ass at home they will do it



Of course, if you or your twitter mate can prove this is incorrect, I will change my opinion

Ah the fabled waster, under every rock and around every corner in Ireland apparently. I suppose you're always a paragon of productivity. A regular Stahkanovite, the government should cast a medal for you for your daily efforts. You've already awarded yourself one in your head.

A miserable and self-regarding mindset.

Runaways

And if you were wondering why there was no Leo photo op with the PPE from China
Cos that’s all hes good for let’s be real here

https://twitter.com/caulmick/status/1245778803898671109?s=21

Sultan_of_Ping

Runaways wrote: »

And if you were wondering why there was no Leo photo op with the PPE from China
Cos that’s all hes good for let’s be real here

https://twitter.com/caulmick/status/1245778803898671109?s=21

God, who have thunk it?

Companies step up production of items they are not wholly familiar with and it leads to quality issues :rolleyes:

aido79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think you are wrong here.

The funds have been paid by Apple. They have no more say on what happens them only what we agreed with them should happen
We appealed the ruling so the funds were put in Escrow under the control of our Minister of Finance. We agreed with Apple to appoint the Bank of America as a custodian of the money..we didn't have to do that.
If we drop the appeal the money continues to it's destination and whatever is decided by the countries with a claim on it, legally. The only thing stopping that is our agreement with Apple, which I don't know is legally binding or a gentleman's agreement.
Apple can continue to appeal and if they win, demand repayment. But they have zero say on what happens the money until then if we want it to be that way.





Ok...I looked at it again.
Here is the EU saying it themselves.
I will take the EU's word on what was happening, not the US's, if that is ok.



Do you accept now (in the interests of honest debate) that there are two sides to this story?

Tldr

In other words kill and bbq the golden goose?

Runaways

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I have lived in Ireland long enough to know we have a certain percentage of useless f**kers......of course if they think they can get more or similar while sitting on ass at home they will do it



Of course, if you or your twitter mate can prove this is incorrect, I will change my opinion

He’s dog whistling here for his (dwindling) base. People like yourself who think everyone else is beneath them and a scrounger.
It shouldn’t need to be said that it isn’t the denis o briens or captains of industry saving us right now.

It’s the nurses the cleaners the catering staff the kids on tils in the shops.

All on minimum wage most of them only getting 20 hours a week.

He’s targeting them. As scroungers.

If govt didn’t factor in workers on part time hours into their calculations on this covid payment that’s on them. But they actually did.

This is helicopter money and Fg can’t be seen to say that as it wasn’t their idea. It was Sinn Feins.

So in order to distance himself from that before any of his cohort realise, he labels all those people as scroungers.

You couldn’t make it up but here we are. He just did it.

And if you watch the clip he realizes he’s gone too far.

But hey. ‘We’re all in this together’

Like fvck we are

Mortelaro

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

No that's not what he says.

He says someone on 220 a week working 20 hours would be better off on the 350 a week.

It would not surprise me to be honest. People are opportunistic.

Also with the kids off I'd imagine sorting minding etc for less than you could get sitting at home would irk people.

Exactly
He is pointing out an anomoly
We do not live in a socialist nirvana where we can pay this 350 a week tax free indefinitely, it's an exceptional measure
Its not an excuse for people on lower, pre crisis to take advantage of
Hes not doing any thing about it because there are way more important things to look after

Of course there are people more interested in promoting their leo hate
Same few all the time, it must be that they think we don't know
I hate celery BTW.
There are more important things at the moment than hate

Runaways

Runaways wrote: »

He’s dog whistling here for his (dwindling) base. People like yourself who think everyone else is beneath them and a scrounger.
It shouldn’t need to be said that it isn’t the denis o briens or captains of industry saving us right now.

It’s the nurses the cleaners the catering staff the kids on tils in the shops.

All on minimum wage most of them only getting 20 hours a week.

He’s targeting them. As scroungers.

If govt didn’t factor in workers on part time hours into their calculations on this covid payment that’s on them. But they actually did.

This is helicopter money and Fg can’t be seen to say that as it wasn’t their idea. It was Sinn Feins.

So in order to distance himself from that before any of his cohort realise, he labels all those people as scroungers.

You couldn’t make it up but here we are. He just did it.

And if you watch the clip he realizes he’s gone too far.

But hey. ‘We’re all in this together’

Like fvck we are

Anyone i know in the low-pay,low hours areas i know are flat to balls at the min

Care assistants and those working in likes of dunnes,tescos and aldi....im intrigued to know what areas FG are targeting with said remarks,

what vital jobs not shut down are people asking to be laid off from??

Field east

Runaways wrote: »

And if you were wondering why there was no Leo photo op with the PPE from China
Cos that’s all hes good for let’s be real here

https://twitter.com/caulmick/status/1245778803898671109?s=21

SF is looking for every opportunity - the field for such is quiet narrow at the moment due to the virus - to make itself relevant/ keep itself out there/ we havnt gone away you know . One of the current platforms it’s using to achieve this objective , IMO, is Leo V. I noticed it starting off when the SF health spokesperson asked LV not to use the landing of the Aer Lingus flight from China as a photo op. Etc, etc, etc. now it is being said that when the ‘boxes were opened’ and he saw that the contents were not up to his liking that he withdrew from the photo op. Would there not have been reporters / cameramen / camera women present and would have reported as such
A big play is now being made by certain quarters about he being photographed in an empty conference centre in Citywest. I wonder should he have waited until the place was substantially fitted out for a better photo op!,!!!!!!!
The camera ‘caught ‘ him ‘smiling’. Another big no no. He needs to be called out on this also. !!!!!!! Is the man not allowed to have a kind of a smiling disposition now and again. Is it not the case that all politicians - especially those in high positions are, , in principal, never too far from a cameraman / reporter. So they are never in control of this ‘service’. Also cameramen take loads of photos and their agenda - be it having a combination of biases/ selling papers or whatever - will pick the photo that will best achieve their objective.

Are you -plural- telling me that politicians / leaders in all other parties , when they get into power, and especially SF that they will have a policy that will not allow themselves to be followed around to events AND will never use any events /occasions to promote themselves /party/ programmers / projects as photo ops.

If that’s not the case then I can only assume that those that continue the photo op issue - especially at this point in time are out and out trolls, IMO

aido79

Runaways wrote: »

This was (conveniently) ignored yesterday. I suggest we all watch the clip. This is how he actually thinks. If you’re earning less than 5k a month you don’t exist or are a welfare cheat.

This is the man. This is Fine Gael. FF had a gift up till recently of being all things to all men. FG aren’t even pretending they only exist for a certain payscale
This has rocketed to the top of list of things that are going to haunt him.


**he doesn’t even realize he’s admitting people aren’t being paid enough never mind the minimum wage bracket.

https://twitter.com/ubuntulad/status/1245807485270872065?s=21

A guy my wife works with put in a request to be laid off so he could get this payment. He's not the sharpest tool in the shed but I doubt he's the only one asking.

How much do you think a SF government would be willing to pay someone who only works 20 hours a week?

Shefwedfan

Runaways wrote: »

He’s dog whistling here for his (dwindling) base. People like yourself who think everyone else is beneath them and a scrounger.
It shouldn’t need to be said that it isn’t the denis o briens or captains of industry saving us right now.

It’s the nurses the cleaners the catering staff the kids on tils in the shops.

All on minimum wage most of them only getting 20 hours a week.

He’s targeting them. As scroungers.

If govt didn’t factor in workers on part time hours into their calculations on this covid payment that’s on them. But they actually did.

This is helicopter money and Fg can’t be seen to say that as it wasn’t their idea. It was Sinn Feins.

So in order to distance himself from that before any of his cohort realise, he labels all those people as scroungers.

You couldn’t make it up but here we are. He just did it.

And if you watch the clip he realizes he’s gone too far.

But hey. ‘We’re all in this together’

Like fvck we are

I don't support FG which is your first issue


Yes Ireland has plenty of scroungers. Hence why we have so many Eastern European/africans etc running our shops/cleaners/health care etc. Thank God for immigration


You will find the local scroungers will be doing exactly what Leo said, then sitting in a lock in somewhere signing about 'Da Ra, saying what a great job Mary Lou is doing :P:P:P wouldn't work on batteries

Mortelaro

Mortelaro wrote: »

Of course there are people more interested in promoting their leo hate
Same few all the time, it must be that they think we don't know
I hate celery BTW.
There are more important things at the moment than hate

And before Leo, it was Enda hate. It’s really FG hate. Bring Micheal Martin into the mix and they lose all reason!

The government are doing a good job in very difficult circumstances.

Yurt2

Deleted User wrote: »

Anyone i know in the low-pay,low hours areas i know are flat to balls at the min

Care assistants and those working in likes of dunnes,tescos and aldi....im intrigued to know what areas FG are targeting with said remarks,

what vital jobs not shut down are people asking to be laid off from??

Tbh, I don't put much stock in Leo's anecdotes, they sound a bit like Enda's infamous 'man with two pints' concoction.

Unless it's a widespread practice that can be proven, it was better left unsaid.

Mortelaro

[Deleted User] wrote: »

what vital jobs not shut down are people asking to be laid off from??

The 350 is available to self employed people who also have a part time job
That would be one instance that I'm aware of
Where the person is only entitled to the 350 if they lost the job
Eg if you were part time employed but set up a small business doing something else aswell or in the gig economy
Youd have to close the business and would be stuck on the low pay part time job but no €350 just UA ?
To be honest,I'd have no problem with that in the current crisis
If both were earning less than 350 together,its a no brainer anomaly

blackwhite

FrancieBrady wrote: »

With all the invective I am not sure what your issue is.

I originally quoted an RTE news source and then when you objected to that I went straight to an EU source and what RTE News said is almost an exact copy of the statement by Vesthager.


https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/STATEMENT_16_2926

Is there another EU take on it? If there is, less of the anti Shinner invective(I have no idea what their take is on it) and post what the hell it is you mean?

Maybe try the actual report, instead of a press release

https://ec.europa.eu/competition/state_aid/cases/253200/253200_1851004_674_2.pdf

Paragraphs 54 and 55

54. As regards ASI, its Irish branch is mainly responsible for the execution of procurement, sales and distribution activities associated with the sale of Apple products to related parties and third-party customers across the EMEIA and APAC regions. Key functions within ASI’s Irish branch include: procurement of Apple finished goods from third-party and related-party manufacturers; distribution activities associated with the sale of products to related parties in the EMEIA and APAC regions; sales support and distribution activities associated with the sale of products to third party customers across EMEIA; activities of the selling and distribution teams, online sales; logistics operations; and operating AppleCare, Apple’s after-sales customer support business, which includes responsibility for warranty, managing the repair programs and repair network including telephone support.

Not direct sales to consumers - but sales to related parties (i.e. the in-country Apply entities) and to third party customers (i.e. other Apple-approved distributors).

55. ASI’s Irish branch also fulfils the purchase orders placed by the APAC local country distribution entities. Many activities associated with the distribution into this region are performed by related parties (for example, logistics support) under service contracts with ASI’s Irish branch. In addition, ASI’s Irish branch is responsible for monitoring day-to-day management of distribution risks, in particular, inventory, warranty and credit limit risks. Since 1 January 2012, ASI’s Irish branch has also been responsible for product localisation functions, which were previously performed by AOE’s Irish branch.

And again, they fulfil the orders from local entites.

A big part of the confusion is probably coming from the fact that the full cash from sales flowed up into ASI, before the minimal profit "share" went back into the local sales entities.

If you really want to bore yourself to sleep, have a read of the OECD rules on transfer pricing (which Apple were notionally trying to follow, they just deviated on structuring the Irish entities, which is where the EU case found them in breach). Having an in-country entity that owns the end-customer sale, but make next to nil profit, whilst you've a sister company in a more tax-friendly jurisdiction which ultimately takes the majority of the profit is the core principle of how these schemes work.

Mortelaro

Mortelaro wrote: »

The 350 is available to self employed people who also have a part time job
That would be one instance that I'm aware of
Where the person is only entitled to the 350 if they lost the job
Eg if you were part time employed but set up a small business doing something else aswell or in the gig economy
Youd have to close the business and would be stuck on the low pay part time job but no €350 just UA ?
To be honest,I'd have no problem with that in the current crisis
If both were earning less than 350 together,its a no brainer anomaly

The form deos ask if you have part time/casual income and i guess self employed been wided out too tbf


Its incredilbe stupid from varadkar,they are doing reasonable enough job all things considered and he takes it upon himself to stir up needless controversy.....

quiet why anyone feels need to defend such gobsh1teness is perplexing

Mortelaro

[Deleted User] wrote: »

quiet why anyone feels need to defend such gobsh1teness is perplexing

He's entitled to the belief
There is a consistency for that opinion in this country and every country
I'd agree He was stupid to bring it up now though
Very stupid
There will be no 350 payments when this is over though
We'd all be hoping theres an end to this

Shefwedfan

Deleted User wrote: »

The form deos ask if you have part time/casual income and i guess self employed been wided out too tbf


Its incredilbe stupid from varadkar,they are doing reasonable enough job all things considered and he takes it upon himself to stir up needless controversy.....

quiet why anyone feels need to defend such gobsh1teness is perplexing

I think he is trying to warn people from doing it, also to try to get people to report it.



The wrong way to do it, but Leo is a clown, he should have handed over to minister for social or whoever and got that person to bring up

FrancieBrady

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

Again, you demonstrate you don't know how this works.

First, BNY Mellon are escrow agents not BoA.

Second, "the funds were put in Escrow under the control of our Minister of Finance"? No, this was explained to you earlier the Minister for Finance does not have control of the funds, they are under the supervision of BNYM, as escrow agent and custodian.

The investment and management of the escrow fund is jointly overseen by the Minister and Apple through an investment committee.

Third, there is no "gentleman's agreement." There is a legal deed in place covering all this.

Fourth, our status as appellant is no less and no greater than Apple's so even if drop our appeal, Apple can continue and the funds stay where they are until the matter is determined.

Fifth, by virtue of the deed covering the escrow, Apple have quite a lot of say as to what happens to the money. They are not only represented on the committee overseeing the investment of it, they are the other party to the escrow deed.

No, I am not an 'expert' in this and neither is my 'partner' nor is a friend of my partner, nor is the dog. The cat knows a bit about finance though, but doesn't talk to me.

The 'arrangement' to manage the funds is an arrangement between Ireland and Apple...and according to what I was listening to was in the 'gift' of Ireland to arrange. There was no onus on us to do it. It was a 'good faith' act with Apple. We could have immediately begun to spend and disperse the funds once they were paid.
The EU actually advised on how we should use the funds when they were paid, and there was much debate about it at the time. but we indicated we were going to appeal.
https://www.siliconrepublic.com/companies/eu-tax-apple-ireland-national-debt

How legally binding that arrangement is, I don't know. That is what people are asking. Do you guys have any sources on this?

And anyone thinking Apple aren't 'playing fast and loose' might want to read this.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41889787

Runaways

And today in Fine Gaels absolutely fvckin alternative universe, josepha insists it’s irresponsible and dangerous for TDs to turn up and do their jobs.

But nurses doctors and front line support staff have to.

You are beyond deluded if you still support these cretins. Or like them, you don’t care.
(This is the same josepha urged Maria to sue. So yes. Living in a very different alternative reality to the rest of us)

https://twitter.com/caulmick/status/1245740249365520384?s=21

Sultan_of_Ping

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, I am not an 'expert' in this and neither is my 'partner' nor is a friend of my partner, nor is the dog. The cat knows a bit about finance though, but doesn't talk to me.

The 'arrangement' to manage the funds is an arrangement between Ireland and Apple...and according to what I was listening to was in the 'gift' of Ireland to arrange. There was no onus on us to do it. It was a 'good faith' act with Apple. We could have immediately begun to spend and disperse the funds once they were paid.
The EU actually advised on how we should use the funds when they were paid, and there was much debate about it at the time. but we indicated we were going to appeal.
https://www.siliconrepublic.com/companies/eu-tax-apple-ireland-national-debt

How legally binding that arrangement is, I don't know. That is what people are asking. Do you guys have any sources on this?

And anyone thinking Apple aren't 'playing fast and loose' might want to read this.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41889787

It's a legal deed - how can a business-person not understand escrow?

The legally binding deed gives a share control over the funds until the appeal is finalised. Control is shared between the Minister for Finance, Apple Sales International (ASI) and Apple Operations Europe (AOE).



I see how this works now - you pronounce on something, get called out, then either deflect, ignore or respond with "I'm not an expert"

Runaways

aido79 wrote: »

A guy my wife works with put in a request to be laid off so he could get this payment. He's not the sharpest tool in the shed but I doubt he's the only one asking.

How much do you think a SF government would be willing to pay someone who only works 20 hours a week?

I’m not sure? They did have a flat figure for everyone laid off. (Was it €500?) either way it works out the same as the current rate when you add the rent supplement. (If you’re eligible for it)
Happy to be corrected on that I heard it on radio 1 so can’t verify.

Runaways

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I don't support FG which is your first issue


Yes Ireland has plenty of scroungers. Hence why we have so many Eastern European/africans etc running our shops/cleaners/health care etc. Thank God for immigration


You will find the local scroungers will be doing exactly what Leo said, then sitting in a lock in somewhere signing about 'Da Ra, saying what a great job Mary Lou is doing :P:P:P wouldn't work on batteries

Ehhh all the pubs are closed.

But thanks for at least being honest about your thoughts on everyone that isn’t you.

Shefwedfan

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

I see how this works now - you pronounce on something, get called out, then either deflect, ignore or respond with "I'm not an expert"

You only worked that out now? read back over the 30 odd pages. The person hasn't a clue on anything. Well apart from PR from SF, he is good at spinning that one

Runaways

Mortelaro wrote: »

The 350 is available to self employed people who also have a part time job
That would be one instance that I'm aware of
Where the person is only entitled to the 350 if they lost the job
Eg if you were part time employed but set up a small business doing something else aswell or in the gig economy
Youd have to close the business and would be stuck on the low pay part time job but no €350 just UA ?
To be honest,I'd have no problem with that in the current crisis
If both were earning less than 350 together,its a no brainer anomaly

Hold up there.

The covoid payment IS NOT open to the self employed. I’ve too many family members and friends stuck with this one to let that go.

Self employed are currently only entitled to Jobseeker’s Allowance. That’s all.

Once again the self starters and small business owners get screwed

Runaways

Runaways wrote: »

Hold up there.

The covoid payment IS NOT open to the self employed. I’ve too many family members and friends stuck with this one to let that go.

Self employed are currently only entitled to Jobseeker’s Allowance. That’s all.

Once again the self starters and small business owners get screwed

Really? Have a read of this https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/unemployed_people/covid19_pandemic_unemployment_payment.html

“ To qualify for the new COVID-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment, you must:

Be aged between 18 and 66
Live in the Republic of Ireland
Have been in employment or self-employment immediately before Friday 13 March 2020. If you work shifts, short time or other atypical work patterns you must have been in employment on or after 6 March 2020.
Have lost your job or be temporarily laid off from work or asked to stay at home from work due to the pandemic
Have taken time off work to mind your child because of school or childcare closures and your employer is no longer paying you
Stopped trading as self-employed due to the pandemic”

aido79

Runaways wrote: »

I’m not sure? They did have a flat figure for everyone laid off. (Was it €500?) either way it works out the same as the current rate when you add the rent supplement. (If you’re eligible for it)
Happy to be corrected on that I heard it on radio 1 so can’t verify.

I was talking about pre or post coronavirus. How much do you think a person working 20 hours a week should earn under a SF government?
These are the people Leo was talking about, not people who have already been laid off.