Is it just me or have SF vanished?

FrancieBrady

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

You asked earlier for sources - I directed you to them - DoF, C&AG, the Official Report from Dáil Éireann.

The details of the Deed have not been published, but I guess it is entirely possible that the DoF, C&AG and various ministers have all been conspiring to mislead everyone, so I'm guessing you'll play in the gray area, so have at it.

Hold on a minute here. I have said I agree with the EU position on this.
The EU has found that Ireland conspired to grant illegal tax benefits to a corporation.

Too right I am wondering what is in that deed.
You don't know either, so you don't know what is involved in getting out of it or what facility is contained in it for either side to end the agreement.

I think, at this time, we should know.

Sultan_of_Ping

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Hold on a minute here. I have said I agree with the EU position on this.
The EU has found that Ireland conspired to grant illegal tax benefits to a corporation.

Too right I am wondering what is in that deed.
You don't know either, so you don't know what is involved in getting out of it or what facility is contained in it for either side to end the agreement.

I think, at this time, we should know.

Now, they didn't - I guess we can add conspiracy to escrow and pharmaceuticals as topics that are outwith your expertise.

I suppose we could also add the NTMA to the list of fibbers.....I mean what would they know.....




It's not really that unusual to not publish a legal document - but doubtless the ill-educated will make great hay from the fact this particular one remains outside the public domain.

FrancieBrady

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

Now, they didn't - I guess we can add conspiracy to escrow and pharmaceuticals as topics that are outwith your expertise.

I suppose we could also add the NTMA to the list of fibbers.....I mean what would they know.....




It's not really that unusual to not publish a legal document - but doubtless the ill-educated will make great hay from the fact this particular one remains outside the public domain.

Sorry, that post is a little unclear.

Are you saying they didn't find that Ireland gave illegal tax benefits to Apple?

Are the EU fibbing in their pressers again?

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_16_2923

Runaways

Ballso wrote: »

Yeah, the likes of you. People who offer nothing but endless mouthy empty-headed criticism at everyone who don't fit squarely into your simplistic political agenda. Your stupid assumptions on this point nicely illustrate your inability to actually engage with facts instead of wailing about how terrible everything is. You are the Sinn Fein archetype

I don’t even vote Sinn Fein but it’s apparent you lot are rattled am threatened and rightly panicking that anyone who disagrees with you suddenly can reply and your parties time with it’s grip on the wheel is come to an end. I didn’t do that. Your inability to open your mind to accepting a different point of view might need some retooling in the coming months and years.
And all of this said without any of the invective yourself and Fg people here can’t seem to make a point without including

In fact it’s cookie cutter reading some of the posts from you all.

Shef thinks we’re all in the pub singing Rah songs ffs

‘Everyone who disagrees with me is a shinner on the dole in the pub singing Rah songs’


Find a new method of discussion lads. Cos this one is transparent and threadbare for being so overused in this thread and boards as a whole.

Sultan_of_Ping

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Sorry, that post is a little unclear.

Are you saying they didn't find that Ireland gave illegal tax benefits to Apple?

Are the EU fibbing in their pressers again?

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_16_2923

No, it's not really unclear. I understand it perfectly, and plenty of other people understand it perfectly, and I'm sorry I can't make it any clearer - if you choose to be Jesuitical in your interpretations then, sorry (again), you're beyond any further help I could possibly offer.

But despair not - Google is your friend. Pick out the terms that you are struggling with and take it from there.

I think the only advice I can offer you at this point is to start with the source material and work forward from there - start with EURLEX, everything you need, including the original decision is there (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid=1585915075802&uri=CELEX:32017D1283) - and anything that you need further elaboration on can be explored through Google.

Best of luck

FrancieBrady

blackwhite wrote: »

If Ireland ultimately lose this appeal it's a major blow to our tax sovereignty (because tax residency is supposed to be a national competency), but also a blow to the sovereignty of our legal system.

That is an opinion though, not an absolute.

Why would it be a blow to the 'sovereignty of our legal system'?

We have been before the European courts before as a country and won and lost.

FrancieBrady

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

No, it's not really unclear. I understand it perfectly, and plenty of other people understand it perfectly, and I'm sorry I can't make it any clearer - if you choose to be Jesuitical in your interpretations then, sorry (again), you're beyond any further help I could possibly offer.

But despair not - Google is your friend. Pick out the terms that you are struggling with and take it from there.

I think the only advice I can offer you at this point is to start with the source material and work forward from there - start with EURLEX, everything you need, including the original decision is there (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid=1585915075802&uri=CELEX:32017D1283) - and anything that you need further elaboration on can be explored through Google.

Best of luck

I asked you a specific question...if you could answer it, before you start speaking for 'everyone'?

franciebrady wrote:

Are you saying they didn't find that Ireland gave illegal tax benefits to Apple?

Sultan_of_Ping

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I asked you a specific question...if you could answer it, before you start speaking for 'everyone'?

yeah, I think it's pretty clear from what I posted up from numerous sources what the position is.

If you want to argue that it's not - it's up to you. You can take any interpretation you want - just as you are choosing to interpet my use of "everyone" in a literal rather than an emblematical sense.

There are plenty of online resources to help you. At this point it might be worth engaging with them. It really is beyond me to help further.

Shefwedfan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That is an opinion though, not an absolute.

Why would it be a blow to the 'sovereignty of our legal system'?

We have been before the European courts before as a country and won and lost.

If Europe win they will decide they can go after all the companies and Ireland corporate tax

It might surprise you but majority of Europe are jealous at Ireland and the amount of multinational companies we have

FrancieBrady

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

yeah, I think it's pretty clear from what I posted up from numerous sources what the position is.

If you want to argue that it's not - it's up to you. You can take any interpretation you want - just as you are choosing to interpet my use of "everyone" in a literal rather than an emblematical sense.

There are plenty of online resources to help you. At this point it might be worth engaging with them. It really is beyond me to help further.

You couldn't just give a straight answer to the question? Says it all really.

You just close off areas you don't want to go into. Fair enough. Says a lot.

FrancieBrady

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It’s not an opinion

If Europe win they will decide they can go after all the companies and Ireland corporate tax

It might surprise you but majority of Europe are jealous at Ireland and the amount of multinational companies we have

The EU (us) did go after quite a few companies that operate in Ireland. Amazon, Google, Starbucks etc. And they 'went after' Apple.

Why would losing this specific case stop them doing it in future if we allow what we allowed Apple to do?

Sultan_of_Ping

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You couldn't just give a straight answer to the question? Says it all really.

You just close off areas you don't want to go into. Fair enough. Says a lot.

Not at all - you've plenty of areas there to go into - I've given you leads to DoF, NTMA, C&AG, EURLEX etc, etc

I'm not sure why you are so fixed on one answer from one peripatetic poster (me ) but, hey, whatever, dude.

It'll all play out in the courts - but from my knowledge of tax law (which is so thin, it's positively transparent), the published outline of the argument we're advancing in the case looks persuasive - it's up to the judges now.

Shefwedfan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The EU (us) did go after quite a few companies that operate in Ireland. Amazon, Google, Starbucks etc. And they 'went after' Apple.

Why would losing this specific case stop them doing it in future if we allow what we allowed Apple to do?

Precedent.....


If they lose one case they wont bother with the rest......if they win then they will go after all of them....

Please grow up with capital and now the bold text.

FrancieBrady

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Precedent.....


If they lose one case they wont bother with the rest......if they win then they will go after all of them....

Please grow up with capital and now the bold text.

You do know they have gone after other corporations and plan to go after more?

*Capitals and bold, italics and underline are facilities given here to add emphasis and clarity to what you are posting.
If you insist on not taking the time to work out what various uses mean, then that is YOUR problem.
If you have a problem, take it up with a mod and see if they think I am misusing those functions or if i am being 'juvenile'.

Runaways

Runaways wrote: »

My brother, two cousins and two mates all self employed and applied and told they weren’t eligible. I can give you their numbers maybe you can advise them what they did wrong on the form perhaps?

There are obviously reasons that we’re not aware of. If they’re still doing any work, then they’re not eligible. They could also apply for Jobseeker’s Allowance.

Shefwedfan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You do know they have gone after other corporations and plan to go after more?

*Capitals and bold, italics and underline are facilities given here to add emphasis and clarity to what you are posting.
If you insist on not taking the time to work out what various uses mean, then that is YOUR problem.
If you have a problem, take it up with a mod and see if they think I am misusing those functions or if i am being 'juvenile'.

Precedent


Google it

FrancieBrady

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Precedent


Google it

They won't be going after the other corporations because they were using the 'Double Irish' scheme so your 'precedent' argument is void.

They will be going after corporations who are evading/avoiding paying taxes due.

They have done it with Amazon, Google Chrysler and Starbucks...Apple is just another one.
The appeal isn't a test case.

Runaways

I’m dyin sick sorry for being arsey.

Runaways

aido79 wrote: »

I don't really know what campaign you're talking about to be honest. Can you elaborate?

I was referring to your rant where you said this "he doesn’t even realize he’s admitting people aren’t being paid enough never mind the minimum wage bracket."

What do you think the minimum wage under a SF government woul be for someone who only works 20 hours a week?

You’re somehow Unaware of Leo’s ‘welfare cheats cheat us all’ campaign?
The one he promised would save the state €500 million a year, which turned out to be a lie shock horror. He can’t help himself. Goes off script and suddenly has to reveal who he is. We’re better than You and a massive dose of disdain for anyone that isn’t him. The arrogance and entitlement aside, he just cannot help himself. The people currently keeping the country going: retail staff, student nurses, drivers, carers, hospital cleaners and caterers, are all low income WORKERS and he's still having a go.


Absolutely Shameful.

But I’m sure his cultist devotees here will rush to his defence presently.

And you all wonder why FG are the least popular party in the country. They’ve lost our trust and it’s pretty much all his fault.

Runaways

FAO aido79

Welfare Cheats Cheat Us All

Published: 18 April 2017
From: Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Minister for Social Protection Leo Varadkar has launched a hard-hitting publicity campaign designed to raise awareness of social welfare fraud and encourage members of the public to identify potential cheats.

Speaking at the launch, Minister Varadkar said: “The vast majority of people receiving payments from the Department of Social Protection are fully entitled to those payments and are compliant with the conditions. However, we take fraud very seriously and have a responsibility to taxpayers to ensure that people receive what they are entitled to. Nothing upsets people more than someone else cheating the system at their expense. That’s why we are launching a new campaign to encourage members of the public to report suspected or known cases of welfare fraud.

“Members of the public play a vital role as whistleblowers. Last year some 20,800 allegations of alleged social welfare fraud were dealt with by the Department. These are investigated and where warranted, payments are reduced or stopped and, in some cases, claimants are prosecuted. Overall, a range of anti-fraud and control measures in the Department of Social Protection saved taxpayers over €500 million last year.”

The hard-hitting publicity campaign promotes the Department’s online and telephone fraud-reporting services. It’s designed to encourage debate about social welfare fraud and challenge the perceptions of those who see it as a victimless crime. It kicks off in the next few days with online, print, and broadcast advertisements and a national poster campaign.

The majority of public reports in 2016 concerned Jobseekers Schemes, Supplementary Welfare Allowance and One Parent Family Payments. The most common reports allege issues such as working while claiming, cohabiting with a partner who is making a financial contribution, or claiming while living abroad. The Department estimates that approximately one in three reports results in a payment being reduced or stopped.

Last year, the Department’s Prosecution Service considered some 300 cases of which 194 were referred to the Chief State Solicitor’s Office for proceedings to issue. A further 160 cases were referred for prosecution to the DPP by the Department’s Special Investigations Unit.

Minister Varadkar continued: “The Department of Social Protection has the single biggest budget of any Government Department, spending €19 billion every year. Last year, 1.4 million people received a weekly social welfare payment. Even with a budget of this size, there are still many positive changes I would like to make but have been unable to do so due to budgetary constraints. That’s why savings are so important. And that’s why the public has a vital role in ensuring that we only target resources at those who most need them.”

Confidential reports can be made using:

a confidential facility on-line on the Department’s website www.welfare.ie/cheats where concerns can be reported
the dedicated telephone facility 01 673 45 45 staffed by trained personnel
reports by letter are also welcomed and encouraged (Fraud Reports, Central Control Division, DSP, Shannon Lodge, Carrick-on-Shannon, Co Leitrim)
Reports can also be made to any of the Department’s offices nationwide.


https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/218fcc-welfare-cheats-cheat-us-all/?referrer=https://www.welfare.ie/en/pressoffice/Pages/pr180417.aspx

joeguevara

Runaways wrote: »

FAO aido79

Welfare Cheats Cheat Us All

Published: 18 April 2017
From: Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Minister for Social Protection Leo Varadkar has launched a hard-hitting publicity campaign designed to raise awareness of social welfare fraud and encourage members of the public to identify potential cheats.

Speaking at the launch, Minister Varadkar said: “The vast majority of people receiving payments from the Department of Social Protection are fully entitled to those payments and are compliant with the conditions. However, we take fraud very seriously and have a responsibility to taxpayers to ensure that people receive what they are entitled to. Nothing upsets people more than someone else cheating the system at their expense. That’s why we are launching a new campaign to encourage members of the public to report suspected or known cases of welfare fraud.

“Members of the public play a vital role as whistleblowers. Last year some 20,800 allegations of alleged social welfare fraud were dealt with by the Department. These are investigated and where warranted, payments are reduced or stopped and, in some cases, claimants are prosecuted. Overall, a range of anti-fraud and control measures in the Department of Social Protection saved taxpayers over €500 million last year.”

The hard-hitting publicity campaign promotes the Department’s online and telephone fraud-reporting services. It’s designed to encourage debate about social welfare fraud and challenge the perceptions of those who see it as a victimless crime. It kicks off in the next few days with online, print, and broadcast advertisements and a national poster campaign.

The majority of public reports in 2016 concerned Jobseekers Schemes, Supplementary Welfare Allowance and One Parent Family Payments. The most common reports allege issues such as working while claiming, cohabiting with a partner who is making a financial contribution, or claiming while living abroad. The Department estimates that approximately one in three reports results in a payment being reduced or stopped.

Last year, the Department’s Prosecution Service considered some 300 cases of which 194 were referred to the Chief State Solicitor’s Office for proceedings to issue. A further 160 cases were referred for prosecution to the DPP by the Department’s Special Investigations Unit.

Minister Varadkar continued: “The Department of Social Protection has the single biggest budget of any Government Department, spending €19 billion every year. Last year, 1.4 million people received a weekly social welfare payment. Even with a budget of this size, there are still many positive changes I would like to make but have been unable to do so due to budgetary constraints. That’s why savings are so important. And that’s why the public has a vital role in ensuring that we only target resources at those who most need them.”

Confidential reports can be made using:

a confidential facility on-line on the Department’s website www.welfare.ie/cheats where concerns can be reported
the dedicated telephone facility 01 673 45 45 staffed by trained personnel
reports by letter are also welcomed and encouraged (Fraud Reports, Central Control Division, DSP, Shannon Lodge, Carrick-on-Shannon, Co Leitrim)
Reports can also be made to any of the Department’s offices nationwide.


https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/218fcc-welfare-cheats-cheat-us-all/?referrer=https://www.welfare.ie/en/pressoffice/Pages/pr180417.aspx

Is there something wrong with reporting welfare fraud?

Runaways

joeguevara wrote: »

Is there something wrong with reporting welfare fraud?

That is not at all the topic at hand and a piss poor attempt at deflection but you do you.
Do you know how much was spent on that spin exercise and how much it actually saved the state?

All for an ego ramp for Leo’s aspirations to be Taoiseach. And at the taxpayers expense


Ps where is denis o Briens tax domicile again?

Shefwedfan

Runaways wrote: »

You’re somehow Unaware of Leo’s ‘welfare cheats cheat us all’ campaign?
The one he promised would save the state €500 million a year, which turned out to be a lie shock horror. He can’t help himself. Goes off script and suddenly has to reveal who he is. We’re better than You and a massive dose of disdain for anyone that isn’t him. The arrogance and entitlement aside, he just cannot help himself. The people currently keeping the country going: retail staff, student nurses, drivers, carers, hospital cleaners and caterers, are all low income WORKERS and he's still having a go.


Absolutely Shameful.

But I’m sure his cultist devotees here will rush to his defence presently.

And you all wonder why FG are the least popular party in the country. They’ve lost our trust and it’s pretty much all his fault.

The program was good, the problem was the bleeding heart Irish didn't report the welfare cheats!!


https://www.thejournal.ie/fact-check-leo-varadkar-welfare-cheats-3404165-Jun2017/


Some info here. No time to read it. Knock yourself out

aido79

Runaways wrote: »

FAO aido79

Welfare Cheats Cheat Us All

Published: 18 April 2017
From: Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Minister for Social Protection Leo Varadkar has launched a hard-hitting publicity campaign designed to raise awareness of social welfare fraud and encourage members of the public to identify potential cheats.

Speaking at the launch, Minister Varadkar said: “The vast majority of people receiving payments from the Department of Social Protection are fully entitled to those payments and are compliant with the conditions. However, we take fraud very seriously and have a responsibility to taxpayers to ensure that people receive what they are entitled to. Nothing upsets people more than someone else cheating the system at their expense. That’s why we are launching a new campaign to encourage members of the public to report suspected or known cases of welfare fraud.

“Members of the public play a vital role as whistleblowers. Last year some 20,800 allegations of alleged social welfare fraud were dealt with by the Department. These are investigated and where warranted, payments are reduced or stopped and, in some cases, claimants are prosecuted. Overall, a range of anti-fraud and control measures in the Department of Social Protection saved taxpayers over €500 million last year.”

The hard-hitting publicity campaign promotes the Department’s online and telephone fraud-reporting services. It’s designed to encourage debate about social welfare fraud and challenge the perceptions of those who see it as a victimless crime. It kicks off in the next few days with online, print, and broadcast advertisements and a national poster campaign.

The majority of public reports in 2016 concerned Jobseekers Schemes, Supplementary Welfare Allowance and One Parent Family Payments. The most common reports allege issues such as working while claiming, cohabiting with a partner who is making a financial contribution, or claiming while living abroad. The Department estimates that approximately one in three reports results in a payment being reduced or stopped.

Last year, the Department’s Prosecution Service considered some 300 cases of which 194 were referred to the Chief State Solicitor’s Office for proceedings to issue. A further 160 cases were referred for prosecution to the DPP by the Department’s Special Investigations Unit.

Minister Varadkar continued: “The Department of Social Protection has the single biggest budget of any Government Department, spending €19 billion every year. Last year, 1.4 million people received a weekly social welfare payment. Even with a budget of this size, there are still many positive changes I would like to make but have been unable to do so due to budgetary constraints. That’s why savings are so important. And that’s why the public has a vital role in ensuring that we only target resources at those who most need them.”

Confidential reports can be made using:

a confidential facility on-line on the Department’s website www.welfare.ie/cheats where concerns can be reported
the dedicated telephone facility 01 673 45 45 staffed by trained personnel
reports by letter are also welcomed and encouraged (Fraud Reports, Central Control Division, DSP, Shannon Lodge, Carrick-on-Shannon, Co Leitrim)
Reports can also be made to any of the Department’s offices nationwide.


https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/218fcc-welfare-cheats-cheat-us-all/?referrer=https://www.welfare.ie/en/pressoffice/Pages/pr180417.aspx

Thanks for that. I didn't live in Ireland in 2017 so was unaware of it but do you really think there weren't people in Ireland committing welfare fraud?

Can you show me what is wrong with the statement please?

Fann Linn

aido79 wrote: »

Thanks for that. I didn't live in Ireland in 2017 so was unaware of it but do you really think there weren't people in Ireland committing welfare fraud?

Can you show me what is wrong with the statement please?

I think they stopped that campaign before years end. Problem wasn't as big as projected if I recall.

Runaways

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The program was good, the problem was the bleeding heart Irish didn't report the welfare cheats!!


https://www.thejournal.ie/fact-check-leo-varadkar-welfare-cheats-3404165-Jun2017/


Some info here. No time to read it. Knock yourself out

They didn’t report them because they don’t exist in anything like the numbers In Leo’s imagination. Simple as that. Will read tho thanks. Trying to force some food in

joeguevara

Runaways wrote: »

That is not at all the topic at hand and a piss poor attempt at deflection but you do you.
Do you know how much was spent on that spin exercise and how much it actually saved the state?

All for an ego ramp for Leo’s aspirations to be Taoiseach. And at the taxpayers expense


Ps where is denis o Briens tax domicile again?

Portugal bud. Lovely country. Not a fan of Denis O’Brien.

You don’t answer whether benefit fraud is a bad thing. Fair play.

joeguevara

Runaways wrote: »

That is not at all the topic at hand and a piss poor attempt at deflection but you do you.
Do you know how much was spent on that spin exercise and how much it actually saved the state?

All for an ego ramp for Leo’s aspirations to be Taoiseach. And at the taxpayers expense


Ps where is denis o Briens tax domicile again?

Portugal bud. Lovely country. Not a fan of Denis O’Brien.

You don’t answer whether benefit fraud is a bad thing. Fair play.

Runaways

joeguevara wrote: »

Portugal bud. Lovely country. Not a fan of Denis O’Brien.

You don’t answer whether benefit fraud is a bad thing. Fair play.

Fraud is criminal no matter who’s doing it. Not paying taxes on your income is worse. Especially when a lot of it is derived from your companies magically procuring massive nationwide contracts from the state and then bailing off with the money.

Hello Dennis


Ps he’s escaped with faaaaaaar larger amounts of actual money than Leo’s imaginary 500 million

And still his companies are being hired and he’s profiting off us in the middle of this crisis.

Look at the van inthe back of Leo’s appallingly timed photo op in the convention center. On of Dennis’ companies.

joeguevara

Runaways wrote: »

Fraud is criminal no matter who’s doing it. Not paying taxes on your income is worse. Especially when a lot of it is derived from your companies magically procuring massive nationwide contracts from the state and then bailing off with the money.

Hello Dennis


Ps he’s escaped with faaaaaaar larger amounts of actual money than Leo’s imaginary 500 million

And still his companies are being hired and he’s profiting off us in the middle of this crisis.

Look at the van inthe back of Leo’s appallingly timed photo op in the convention center. On of Dennis’ companies.

I don’t like Leo. not a big fan of Fine Gael and Denis o brien is a pr1ck.