Is it just me or have SF vanished?

FrancieBrady

aido79 wrote: »

I think you were already asked this but where should they have got the ppe from? Please point me to your previous answer if you have already answered.

Had it been me, knowing China's reputation for varying quality I'd have sent a team out there to inspect the product before accepting it. A bit of logistics required but certainly doable. The defective materials were discovered very quickly on arrival...that could have been picked up in China by random sampling.

I (along with two other businesses here) shipped three containers of product from China in the last 5 years and it was worthwhile sending a guy to China to inspect the product before shipment. He turned down part of the cargo before it was loaded. I don't do it anymore because life is too short for the hassle, stress and grief tbh.

blackwhite

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Had it been me, knowing China's reputation for varying quality I'd have sent a team out there to inspect the product before accepting it. A bit of logistics required but certainly doable. The defective materials were discovered very quickly on arrival...that could have been picked up in China by random sampling.

I (along with two other businesses here) shipped three containers of product from China in the last 5 years and it was worthwhile sending a guy to China to inspect the product before shipment. He turned down part of the cargo before it was loaded. I don't do it anymore because life is too short for the hassle, stress and grief tbh.

How exactly do you propose the team inspects the product when they aren't allowed leave the footprint of the aircraft? The products will have been packed, and sealed for customs before they get airside.

Or should we have delayed taking any deliveries for 14 days to allow inspectors clear quarantine on arrival into China :rolleyes:


Yet another classic case of Francie spoofing and ignoring reality, because it helps to push the agenda of his cult

Sultan_of_Ping

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yet the HSE is in negotiations with Irish Pharma companies to see if they can 'ramp up capacity'

https://www.thejournal.ie/reagents-testing-pharma-5064565-Apr2020/

Yet we were told vociferously here that that wasn't possible. Will he be told about the 'bike shed' too?

The IDA too seem to be telling porkies according to you guys:


The Irish Pharmaceutical Industry is saying this too:




By the way, will it now take 'years' for that company in Cork to get certification to produce their kits?

Yes, "ramp up capacity" - not ramp up production using non-existent spare capacity - really as a business person do you not understand the fundamental difference between the concepts of production and capacity? Quite bizarre.

And yes it needs to be negotiated - this isn't Shinnernomic magic money trees - temporary increases in capacity and concomitant increases in production can be generated quite easily and any negotiation can be simply about price. More permanent increases in capacity bring in the question of cost - short-term there'll be an cost increase, but more production means more scale means cheaper prices ultimately - the timing of all that needs to be negotiated.

Also the impact on other patients - a plant switching away from what it does to do something else is going to leave others in the lurch, that needs to be addressed, as does the potential impact on suppliers - only a very few of our suppliers, for example, could help us if we switched.

You, see? The idiocy of SF fails to embrace the fact that pharmaceutical manufacturing is part of a complicated and complex series of supply chains - changes have consequences, both up and down stream, and it's pretty much a given that the law of unintended consequences will bite us severely in the arse.

Sultan_of_Ping

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think you are being hypocritical invoking Ryan to save the blushes of the government while not extending the same courtesy to others who are doing their duty, speaking out and asking questions.

Also are you saying that SF haven't called people and institutions of the state to account while in opposition in the Dáil and brought scrutiny to bear on the same?

Because that just doesn't tally with reality in any sense of the word. Pure and simple, it is a lie and not what I seen during the term of government while FF sat on their hands in C&S.

Again, I didn't invoke him to save anyone's blushes - merely to rebut the nonsense idea of due diligence being carried out in crisis - if you want to take a wider reading of it, then be my guest.

Honestly, SF are just more ridiculous by the day - I'm guessing during the next grain crisis they'll be calling on pig farmers to ramp up production of barley (sure, aren't they all farms), or during a fodder crises calling on horticulturists to ramp up silage production.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Had it been me, knowing China's reputation for varying quality I'd have sent a team out there to inspect the product before accepting it. A bit of logistics required but certainly doable. The defective materials were discovered very quickly on arrival...that could have been picked up in China by random sampling.

I (along with two other businesses here) shipped three containers of product from China in the last 5 years and it was worthwhile sending a guy to China to inspect the product before shipment. He turned down part of the cargo before it was loaded. I don't do it anymore because life is too short for the hassle, stress and grief tbh.

Sending a team to China in the current situation is hardly wise and what benefit is there to find out the PPE is faulty in China unless you know in advance that the faulty stock can be replaced.. Easier just to get them to replace the faulty PPE in the next order and ignore those scoring cheap political points out of the situation.

FrancieBrady

blackwhite wrote: »

How exactly do you propose the team inspects the product when they aren't allowed leave the footprint of the aircraft? The products will have been packed, and sealed for customs before they get airside.

Or should we have delayed taking any deliveries for 14 days to allow inspectors clear quarantine on arrival into China :rolleyes:


Yet another classic case of Francie spoofing and ignoring reality, because it helps to push the agenda of his cult

I have no SF specific agenda on this. I am in business, I am used to solving logistical problems.
I don't as a rule begin a conversation by saying...'ah no..no that can't be done'.

Times of crisis, you move mountains. Or you at least, look at ways of moving the mountain.

https://www.dfa.ie/irish-embassy/china/about-us/team-ireland-china/

Sultan_of_Ping

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Had it been me, knowing China's reputation for varying quality I'd have sent a team out there to inspect the product before accepting it. A bit of logistics required but certainly doable. The defective materials were discovered very quickly on arrival...that could have been picked up in China by random sampling.

I (along with two other businesses here) shipped three containers of product from China in the last 5 years and it was worthwhile sending a guy to China to inspect the product before shipment. He turned down part of the cargo before it was loaded. I don't do it anymore because life is too short for the hassle, stress and grief tbh.

Really?

And how would you have got them off the plane? The planes landed, no one was allowed off and iirc they had to be gone within 3 hours......so answers us this - how would you have got any inspection team and their kit off the plane to set up to assess the PPE?

And it's a sellers market, so what do you do? Tell the suppliers to go screw themselves? Then where do you get the PPE from on the terms you describe? Fantasyland?

aido79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Had it been me, knowing China's reputation for varying quality I'd have sent a team out there to inspect the product before accepting it. A bit of logistics required but certainly doable. The defective materials were discovered very quickly on arrival...that could have been picked up in China by random sampling.

I (along with two other businesses here) shipped three containers of product from China in the last 5 years and it was worthwhile sending a guy to China to inspect the product before shipment. He turned down part of the cargo before it was loaded. I don't do it anymore because life is too short for the hassle, stress and grief tbh.

In normal circumstances this is the way it would have been done. However the 14 days in quarantine in China for the team sent over to check the quality would mean a 2 week delay in getting the ppe to Ireland which obviously isn't ideal.

Ballso

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have no SF specific agenda on this. I am in business, I am used to solving logistical problems.
I don't as a rule begin a conversation by saying...'ah no..no that can't be done'.

Times of crisis, you move mountains. Or you at least, look at ways of moving the mountain.

https://www.dfa.ie/irish-embassy/china/about-us/team-ireland-china/

You aren't in business, you are in boards. You're some Walter Mitty character Francie.

FrancieBrady

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

Yes, "ramp up capacity" - not ramp up production using non-existent spare capacity - really as a business person do you not understand the fundamental difference between the concepts of production and capacity? Quite bizarre.

Changing the tune now?
That is not what we were told when this came up first...we were told catergorically that there was 'no spare capacity' and anybody who said there was was a 'hurler on the ditch' 'shouting for attention'.

And yes it needs to be negotiated - this isn't Shinnernomic magic money trees - temporary increases in capacity and concomitant increases in production can be generated quite easily and any negotiation can be simply about price. More permanent increases in capacity bring in the question of cost - short-term there'll be an cost increase, but more production means more scale means cheaper prices ultimately - the timing of all that needs to be negotiated.

No idea who that is targeted at.

Also the impact on other patients - a plant switching away from what it does to do something else is going to leave others in the lurch, that needs to be addressed, as does the potential impact on suppliers - only a very few of our suppliers, for example, could help us if we switched.

You, see? The idiocy of SF fails to embrace the fact that pharmaceutical manufacturing is part of a complicated and complex series of supply chains - changes have consequences, both up and down stream, and it's pretty much a given that the law of unintended consequences will bite us severely in the arse.

Who said anything about stopping the production of vital drugs?
Spinning and re-spinning is just making you look silly now.
It is clear that moves are underway to look at all these possibilities.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have no SF specific agenda on this. I am in business, I am used to solving logistical problems.
I don't as a rule begin a conversation by saying...'ah no..no that can't be done'.

Times of crisis, you move mountains. Or you at least, look at ways of moving the mountain.

https://www.dfa.ie/irish-embassy/china/about-us/team-ireland-china/

Logistics for pharma / medical devices is a lot more complicated. We deal with Chinese and Indian suppliers weekly and it's a nightmare at the best of times never mind in a pandemic.

Sultan_of_Ping

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have no SF specific agenda on this. I am in business, I am used to solving logistical problems.
I don't as a rule begin a conversation by saying...'ah no..no that can't be done'.

Times of crisis, you move mountains. Or you at least, look at ways of moving the mountain.

https://www.dfa.ie/irish-embassy/china/about-us/team-ireland-china/

3 containers in 5 years from China, and now you are expert on global logistics :D:D:D

So how do you "move mountains"? What ways are there to move mountains? As someone who has shpped a container from China once every 608 days, do share how you go about dealing with logistical issues.......

Ballso

jh79 wrote: »

Logistics for pharma / medical devices is a lot more complicated. We deal with Chinese and Indian suppliers weekly and it's a nightmare at the best of times never mind in a pandemic.

Sure Sinn Fein have a simple solution for everything. Solutions they've no experience of and likely will never have to implement.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Sending a team to China in the current situation is hardly wise and what benefit is there to find out the PPE is faulty in China unless you know in advance that the faulty stock can be replaced.. Easier just to get them to replace the faulty PPE in the next order and ignore those scoring cheap political points out of the situation.

We could just as easily have ended up like other countries with all of it useless.

Again, the idea that there is 'nothing that can be done' is being promoted to save blushes. Sorry, that doesn't cut it.

Maybe it was impossible, but that should never result in questions NOT being asked.

aido79

Ballso wrote: »

Sure Sinn Fein have a simple solution for everything. Solutions they've no experience of and likely will never have to implement.

They are the equivalent of someone following you around all day telling you that are doing everything wrong without offering alternative ideas or even knowing how to do the task at hand. Eventually you'd either stop listening or tell them to fook off.

FrancieBrady

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

3 containers in 5 years from China, and now you are expert on global logistics :D:D:D

So how do you "move mountains"? What ways are there to move mountains? As someone who has shpped a container from China once every 608 days, do share how you go about dealing with logistical issues.......

Oh get lost and find someone else to misrepresent Sultan.

What was it...10 jets...were mobilised to go get this stuff, that was 'moving a mountain,. Are you telling me mobilising a team to inspect the shipment was an unmovable mountain? Bull****.

blackwhite

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have no SF specific agenda on this. I am in business, I am used to solving logistical problems.
I don't as a rule begin a conversation by saying...'ah no..no that can't be done'.

Times of crisis, you move mountains. Or you at least, look at ways of moving the mountain.

https://www.dfa.ie/irish-embassy/china/about-us/team-ireland-china/

For someone who repeatedly claims to be "in business" you've a habit of proposing ridiculously oversimplified solutions that won't work, without over doing a hint of critical analysis to how likely they are to succeed.

Funnily enough, in any of the companies I've worked in over the years I've yet to see that sort of lazy, simplistic approach advocated or followed by anyone who's been remotely successful.



It's almost like you love to spout about things you don't have the faintest idea about, and when challenged you'll shift goalposts, deflect, or revert to the classic trope of "just asking questions" (i.e. throwing sh*t in the hope something sticks)

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We could just as easily have ended up like other countries with all of it useless.

Again, the idea that there is 'nothing that can be done' is being promoted to save blushes. Sorry, that doesn't cut it.

Maybe it was impossible, but that should never result in questions NOT being asked.

I think its ok for the general public to question it as they wouldn't be familiar with issues encountered with Asian suppliers to the pharma industry but a political party should do a bit more research unless of course their aim is just cheap point scoring.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Logistics for pharma / medical devices is a lot more complicated. We deal with Chinese and Indian suppliers weekly and it's a nightmare at the best of times never mind in a pandemic.

I never said it wasn't complicated, nor that it is in any way similar to shipping a small quantity of containers.

Inspecting goods before buying in that quantity is not an unknown though. We got some usable supplies and that is a good thing and well done etc, but it could just as easily have been a total disaster, as people have said about other countries.

Sultan_of_Ping

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Changing the tune now?
That is not what we were told when this came up first...we were told catergorically that there was 'no spare capacity' and anybody who said there was was a 'hurler on the ditch' 'shouting for attention'.

No idea who that is targeted at.



Who said anything about stopping the production of vital drugs?
Spinning and re-spinning is just making you look silly now.
It is clear that moves are underway to look at all these possibilities.

Again, production runs at capacity - you change production volumes by changing capacity.....that can't be done overnight, it takes careful planning....spare capacity is what businesses call waste, because you have resources sitting idle....so most plants, most of the time are at capacity....or their production managers need to go find new jobs.....hard to believe you can't grasp the difference between capacity and production


As for your other point, one line, one product - if we take a line and switch it to do something else then it can't do what it was set up for - that means someone is going to go without.

Plus, define "vital drugs" - is low dose aspirin "vital" - what abut insulin? - *********? anipryl? cytarabine? - one of those I'd definitely not regard as "vital" but someone might - so who decides what's a "vital" drug?

FrancieBrady

blackwhite wrote: »

For someone who repeatedly claims to be "in business" you've a habit of proposing ridiculously oversimplified solutions that won't work, without over doing a hint of critical analysis to how likely they are to succeed.

Funnily enough, in any of the companies I've worked in over the years I've yet to see that sort of lazy, simplistic approach advocated or followed by anyone who's been remotely successful.



It's almost like you love to spout about things you don't have the faintest idea about, and when challenged you'll shift goalposts, deflect, or revert to the classic trope of "just asking questions" (i.e. throwing sh*t in the hope something sticks)

How many 'successful businesses' would place an order of that scale, with a known unreliable, quality wise, source and not do some due diligence before accepting the order? And what business management would not face criticism from owners if they did?

I don't know of a single one.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I never said it wasn't complicated, nor that it is in any way similar to shipping a small quantity of containers.

Inspecting goods before buying in that quantity is not an unknown though. We got some usable supplies and that is a good thing and well done etc, but it could just as easily have been a total disaster, as people have said about other countries.

Pharma companies use PPE all day everyday. Do you really think they send an inspection team over for every order?

Sultan_of_Ping

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Oh get lost and find someone else to misrepresent Sultan.

What was it...10 jets...were mobilised to go get this stuff, that was 'moving a mountain,. Are you telling me mobilising a team to inspect the shipment was an unmovable mountain? Bull****.

Sorry, did you not say you brought in 3 containers in 5 years?

Easy enough to send a team - but again, how do you get them off the plane?

and do you do your checks on the tarmac as the stuff is being loaded, or have them travel to the factories to do the checks at dispatch?

Or would you, as some clients occasionally do, look to put inspectors on the line?

Would you audit the PPE manufacturers to approve them? If so, how often?

Or would you rely on some third-party certification and if so, which scheme?

FrancieBrady

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

Again, production runs at capacity - you change production volumes by changing capacity.....that can't be done overnight, it takes careful planning....spare capacity is what businesses call waste, because you have resources sitting idle....so most plants, most of the time are at capacity....or their production managers need to go find new jobs.....hard to believe you can't grasp the difference between capacity and production

Again... the shifting and spinning. WHO said anything about 'overnight'

As for your other point, one line, one product - if we take a line and switch it to do something else then it can't do what it was set up for - that means someone is going to go without.

Plus, define "vital drugs" - is low dose aspirin "vital" - what abut insulin? - *********? anipryl? cytarabine? - one of those I'd definitely not regard as "vital" but someone might - so who decides what's a "vital" drug?

You STILL have to point out who said anything about stopping production of vital drugs.

The Industry, the HSE and the IDA are all looking at this. We were told vociferously that it is a waste of time and that anyone who suggested it was hurling from the ditch and looking for attention.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How many 'successful businesses' would place an order of that scale, with a known unreliable, quality wise, source and not do some due diligence before accepting the order? And what business management would not face criticism from owners if they did?

I don't know of a single one.

What type of due diligence should they have done? Sending a team to China during a pandemic that originated in China is obviously a bad idea.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Pharma companies use PPE all day everyday. Do you really think they send an inspection team over for every order?

I don't know. But I would if I was ordering 13 years supply (according to Leo) in one go.

Mortelaro

FrancieBrady wrote: »

. Are you telling me mobilising a team to inspect the shipment was an unmovable mountain? Bull****.

China wouldn't let anyone off the planes,they have a 2 week quarantine...

smurgen

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

Sorry, but where in that final article you linked does it say Harris and/or the HSE bought PPE rom Alibaba?

Hahahaha man take a chill pill that was a joke. Although in the age of trump etc I suppose I should be more careful with my language.

Topgear on Dave

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't know. But I would if I was ordering 13 years supply (according to Leo) in one go.

Its an emergency and we cant really afford to be picky can we.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't know. But I would if I was ordering 13 years supply (according to Leo) in one go.

Our company has banned international travel unless there is an exceptional business need.

Now, is going over to China to inspect an order that could be inspected on delivery an exceptional business need given that there is no evidence that the supplier could even replace the faulty stock at source?