The strategy of favouring the old and the vulnerable will prove disastrous long term.

Nermal

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

Just like everything else, there's no black and white and nuance is lost on most people.

The 'health is absolute priority over the economy' position doesn't show a lot of nuance, does it?

auspicious wrote: »

Hypothetically, if we faced an equivalent virus that has a high mortality rate in the under 20s would the thread be much different if it was titled The strategy of favouring the under 20s will prove disastrous long term?

No doubt we would be prepared to suffer more to save younger people. What's unreasonable about that? They will live longer. Money spent keeping them alive has a greater return. Are you trying to suggest we should be embarrassed or ashamed for utilitarian thinking?

TheCitizen

Nermal wrote: »

The 'health is absolute priority over the economy' position doesn't show a lot of nuance, does it?



No doubt we would be prepared to suffer more to save younger people. What's unreasonable about that? They will live longer. Money spent keeping them alive has a greater return. Are you trying to suggest we should be embarrassed or ashamed for utilitarian thinking?

Listen to Gordon Gekko here :pac:

Eric Cartman

it is a bit of a trolley problem, nobody wants to pull the level but in this case it must be pulled.

I think put the cutoff at retirement age, say 65 in this case, and league table it working top to bottom , top being 100+ year olds with severe underlying conditions working all the way down to 65 year olds with no additional problems. Thats the order you remove ventilators in. However I would caveat that by saying that if the ventilator is going to somebody over 55 it shouldnt come from anyone under 70 and no ventilators moving from anyone over 65 to anyone younger but also over 65. it creates kind of a no mans land in the middle but prioritises most of the working population and the young.

that said getting more ventilators is obviously the massively more optimal scenario.

Nermal

https://www.wsj.com/articles/rethinking-the-coronavirus-shutdown-11584659154

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/22/opinion/coronavirus-economy.html

The cost of our overreaction and group-think slowly dawns on our elites.

TheCitizen

Nermal wrote: »

https://www.wsj.com/articles/rethinking-the-coronavirus-shutdown-11584659154

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/22/opinion/coronavirus-economy.html

The cost of our overreaction and group-think slowly dawns on our elites.

Overreaction? Head still in the sand clearly.

TheCitizen

Nermal wrote: »

https://www.wsj.com/articles/rethinking-the-coronavirus-shutdown-11584659154

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/22/opinion/coronavirus-economy.html

The cost of our overreaction and group-think slowly dawns on our elites.

Actually all joking aside that’s a disgraceful comment and you and the poster or any other that might “thank” you should be ashamed of. You won’t be though, you seem entertained by it in a weird way. The fact remains the comment quoted is A disgraceful and stupid comment.

A Trump like comment. The irony that he cites "the elites" as the problem behind what he erroneously describes as an overreaction.

The other funny thing, the poster ITman thanks both comments, he must be a Buffoon Johnson fanboy.

Hector Savage

jmayo wrote: »

Well I am going to be quite blunt here and openly state he is a complete muppet.
If someone jumps to that conclusion watching a bit of telly and thinks being quarantined for 4 months is the end of the world, then they are a grade A feckin eejit.

Would he be the type of guy whose life revolves around a trip to the pub every night?

Will be a lot lot longer than 4 months!!

TheCitizen

https://mobile.twitter.com/ndrew_lawrence/status/1242245135129346050

Just listen to this blubbering idiot. He's a Senator of course so he'll be cossetted if he gets the virus, but this is the sort of extreme Rightist' bolloxology that's behind a lot of the bullshít approach to this from the likes of Trump and Johnson and a few eejits on this thread in particular. It's becoming clearer now that this is a serious illness for a lot of younger fit people to get as well. The Rightist' though appear willing to put the economy ahead of people (surprise surprise).

Maybe when this is over people will cop on and we we'll see the end of bastards like Trump in the White House and wanabee Trump sad buffoons like Johnson in downing Street. Time to grow up and cop on people, the politics of division is good for no one except the very elite.

shesty

I would like to think that this will lose Trump the election, but I doubt it.
It's being peddled as a "Chinese Virus" ie, nothing to do with Trump, not his fault, nothing he could do to mitigate it.:( It's painted as nothing that could be improved in the American domestic setup ie their health system set up, to manage it well.

TheCitizen

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I also predict a massive upsurge in suicides in a few months time.

I remember in the last recession I had to cut down three people. One of them a friend.

That's the sort of crap that Trump would come out with, congratulations pal. In the last recession btw the Right didn't help those who committed suicide either.

So what's the logic here? Put more lives at risk right now because some people might commit suicide later is it? Hmmm I think the motivation is more to dow with saving a few bucks because Trump doesn't give a fúck about any plebs out there.

https://twitter.com/jdawsey1/status/1242232551378477057

TheCitizen

shesty wrote: »

I would like to think that this will lose Trump the election, but I doubt it.
It's being peddled as a "Chinese Virus" ie, nothing to do with Trump, not his fault, nothing he could do to mitigate it.:( It's painted as nothing that could be improved in the American domestic setup ie their health system set up, to manage it well.

Hell mend any eejit that would elect Trump in the White House or that buffoon Johnson in Westminster

CtevenSrowder

TheCitizen wrote: »

https://mobile.twitter.com/ndrew_lawrence/status/1242245135129346050

Just listen to this blubbering idiot. He's a Senator of course so he'll be cossetted if he gets the virus, but this is the sort of extreme Rightist' bolloxology that's behind a lot of the bullshít approach to this from the likes of Trump and Johnson and a few eejits on this thread in particular. It's becoming clearer now that this is a serious illness for a lot of younger fit people to get as well. The Rightist' though appear willing to put the economy ahead of people (surprise surprise).

Maybe when this is over people will cop on and we we'll see the end of bastards like Trump in the White House and wanabee Trump sad buffoons like Johnson in downing Street. Time to grow up and cop on people, the politics of division is good for no one except the very elite.

Blah blah trump, blah blah right wing. Piss off with your American politics.

TheCitizen

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Blah blah trump, blah blah right wing. Piss off with your American politics.

Great response. I'm criticising that politics because that's the politics behind the poor slow response to this crisis as witnessed not just in America but in the UK as well, did you miss that part? You're damn right I'm criticising the Rightist approach to this.

Are you going to actually agree or disagree with that opinion or just sit there blubbering blah blah blah?

CtevenSrowder

TheCitizen wrote: »

Great response. I'm criticising that politics because that's the politics behind the poor slow response to this crisis as witnessed not just in America but in the UK as well, did you miss that part?

It's a response that's at a level that maybe you'll understand. Nothing more than cheap political ****e. The UK followed the advice of their CMO. FG are center right and acted relatively quickly. Spain have one of the highest number of cases in the World and are led by a left wing government. Italy is governed in part by the Democratic Party, who are center left. This is the country with the highest number of cases. So basically, you are speaking out of your arse.

Over to America with you if you want to spout your nonsense.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

The idea of Trump caring about people who suffer from depression or mental health issues has to be the funniest thing I've read since this **** started!

TheCitizen

The stupid divisive politics of the likes of Trump and Johnson has no place in this fight.

The Trump fanboys that you'd often find on message boards like this are out in force and have revealed themselves on this thread. They always seem to have plenty of time on their hands to sit on their laptops and argue all day ironically often disparaging policies like the welfare state, I've work to do but I'm only getting warmed up here. Thank this comment ITman while you're at it.

This is one argument the Right will definitely lose as we see the buffoon Johnson for example backtracking furiously in a panic. When this blows over hopefully people will remember that the Rightist politics of Trump and his fanboys was hell bent on putting the economy first ahead of the people in this crisis and their divisive negative politics gets deservedly smashed.

TheCitizen

TheCitizen wrote: »

The stupid divisive politics of the likes of Trump and Johnson has no place in this fight.

.

Yeah, but likewise the stupid political point scoring of the anti Trump and Boris crowd have no place here either..

CtevenSrowder

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yeah, but likewise the stupid political point scoring of the anti Trump and Boris crowd have no place here either..

He posted all that with literally no sense of irony at all.

TheCitizen

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

It's a response that's at a level that maybe you'll understand. Nothing more than cheap political ****e. The UK followed the advice of their CMO. FG are center right and acted relatively quickly. Spain have one of the highest number of cases in the World and are led by a left wing government. Italy is governed in part by the Democratic Party, who are center left. This is the country with the highest number of cases. So basically, you are speaking out of your arse.

Over to America with you if you want to spout your nonsense.

Simplistic bullshít response. What we're talking about here is the philosophy behind the thread title, the philosophy exhibited by Johnson in the UK until he backtracked and by Trump in the USA. They were espousing that philosophy of trying to put the economy before people after it became clear from Italy and Spain that this was a crisis that needed a more direct response.

It's not simply an argument of Right v Left but it's certainly the case that the Rightist ideology behind the likes of Trump and Johnson was what had them leading their countries down the wrong path on this when the evidence was that their approach was wrong in every way in terms of humanitarianism or the economy.

In Ireland it has been a bit better partially because (and I'm no fan of FG) but as an electorate, we've not as yet lurched as far to the right as they have in the UK and the USA. The German response appears to be good. The Chinese response and South Korean as well. There are good examples for us to follow on this. There are also bad examples from Trumps's white House, Johnson's Tories and the stupidity of likes of those who agree with the op of this thread.

You're probably a Rightist with plenty of time on your hands to muddy the waters on this argument. Deflect and misrepresent the argument of your opponent will be your tactic. Off you go....... blah blah blah.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah, but likewise the stupid political point scoring of the anti Trump and Boris crowd have no place here either..

Absolutely. But blaming politicial leaders for being slow to act, insensitive or promoting policies that will help the virus spread can and should be highlighted. That's not point-scoring, that's political debate.

While not specific to Boris or Trump, obviously; the NHS cutbacks and the inefficiencies of the Republican lassiez-faire attitudes towards health insurance and the intended repeal of Obamacare are policies that the Torys/Republicans have advocated for years and are now about to be severly tested. And I don't see any way they can come out intact.

TheCitizen

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah, but likewise the stupid political point scoring of the anti Trump and Boris crowd have no place here either..

Ah so we're supposed to ignore that those two bastards were clearly willing to put money before the lives of the citizens of the countries they lead because it might be seen as political point scoring? Nah, don't thinks so, they don't get away with it and when this is over they will hopefully pay for it politically.

ITman88

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

He posted all that with literally no sense of irony at all.

Haha.
It’s funny tho, no one had brought up the topic of Trump in the thread.
Trump is irrelevant in Ireland right now, America is a federal state so he’s kinda irrelevant in most states too.
Our concern is Ireland, and protecting ourselves and our country.
From a health and economic point of view!

CtevenSrowder

TheCitizen wrote: »

Ah so we're supposed to ignore that those two bastards were clearly willing to put money before the lives of the citizens of the countries they lead because it might be seen as political point scoring? Nah, don't thinks so, they don't get away with it and when this is over they will hopefully pay for it politically.

Boris Johnson followed the advice he was given by the medical and modelling experts. So your little rant doesn't quite apply to him unfortunately.

TheCitizen

ITman88 wrote: »

Haha.
It’s funny tho, no one had brought up the topic of Trump in the thread.
Trump is irrelevant in Ireland right now, America is a federal state so he’s kinda irrelevant in most states too.
Our concern is Ireland, and protecting ourselves and our country.
From a health and economic point of view!

ITman backtracking quicker than BoJo. Beep Beep Beep.

TheCitizen

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Boris Johnson followed the advice he was given by the medical and modelling experts. So your little rant doesn't quite apply to him unfortunately.

So it was his advisors fault? Sorry, that's such a lame excuse.

ITman88

TheCitizen wrote: »

Simplistic bullshít response. What we're talking about here is the philosophy behind the thread title, the philosophy exhibited by Johnson in the UK until he backtracked and by Trump in the USA. They were espousing that philosophy of trying to put the economy before people after it became clear from Italy and Spain that this was a crisis that needed a more direct response.

It's not simply an argument of Right v Left but it's certainly the case that the Rightist ideology behind the likes of Trump and Johnson was what had them leading their countries down the wrong path on this when the evidence was that their approach was wrong in every way in terms of humanitarianism or the economy.

In Ireland it has been a bit better partially because (and I'm no fan of FG) but as an electorate, we've not as yet lurched as far to the right as they have in the UK and the USA. The German response appears to be good. The Chinese response and South Korean as well. There are good examples for us to follow on this. There are also bad examples from Trumps's white House, Johnson's Tories and the stupidity of likes of those who agree with the op of this thread.

You're probably a Rightist with plenty of time on your hands to muddy the waters on this argument. Deflect and misrepresent the argument of your opponent will be your tactic. Off you go....... blah blah blah.

No countries approach has proven correct long term.
This is long term war against a virus that could quiet possibly return much more potent.
In 2 or 3 years the country with the correct approach will become apparent.

TheCitizen

TheCitizen wrote: »

Ah so we're supposed to ignore that those two bastards were clearly willing to put money before the lives of the citizens of the countries they lead because it might be seen as political point scoring? Nah, don't thinks so, they don't get away with it and when this is over they will hopefully pay for it politically.

Dude..if Boris and Trump had locked everything down at the first sign of anything, you'd have had everyone going mental calling them literally Hitler while going around licking and spitting on each other.. when Trump stopped flights from China he was racist..it's just so feckin old at this stage.. That people can't get past their dislike of them is just so two dimensional.. like, the fact that I have to almost defend them here pisses me off..I dunno about Trump, but Boris is an intelligent man, and operating under advice from experts.. like, I know everyone is a virologist all of a sudden, but, like I see a lot of actually stupid people calling him stupid..he isn't..

ILoveYourVibes

Deleted User wrote: »

.t Boris is an intelligent man, ..

hmmm

Cuddlesworth

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Boris Johnson followed the advice he was given by the medical and modelling experts. So your little rant doesn't quite apply to him unfortunately.

Right now it seems like Boris was following the UK's pandemic plan done up by the research from the Imperial College london. It was a great plan, they were going to stage shutdowns as the virus spread creating a sustainable system of healthcare and support based on top spec data models created for this occasion.

It appears that despite being repeatedly told by WHO, China, Italy that it won't work, due to the incubation period, infection rate and the lack of ICU space and ventilators, they went ahead with it.

Then they backtracked hard and fast when the data modelling put in the new factors and copped they were the next Italy.

CtevenSrowder

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Absolutely. But blaming politicial leaders for being slow to act, insensitive or promoting policies that will help the virus spread can and should be highlighted. That's not point-scoring, that's political debate.

The OP was suggesting that the reason these leaders were slow to act was specifically because they were right-wing. This isn't true as I've pointed out. Plenty of countries were slow to react (and it's always easy in hindsight to say that). The countries that were quickest to react were the ones that have had SARS before and as such their quick response was irrespective of their current governments ideology.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

While not specific to Boris or Trump, obviously; the NHS cutbacks and the inefficiencies of the Republican lassiez-faire attitudes towards health insurance and the intended repeal of Obamacare are policies that the Torys/Republicans have advocated for years and are now about to be severly tested. And I don't see any way they can come out intact.

America, imo, with it's version of completely privatised healthcare, is indeed ****ed yes.