The strategy of favouring the old and the vulnerable will prove disastrous long term.

CtevenSrowder

KyussB wrote: »

The term "history dictates" doesn't have any meaning. History does not just repeat itself.

The future also can't be predicted. What makes you so sure we'll spend our way out? What if we don't? What if we try to and things become worse?

KyussB wrote: »

The public are not foolish enough to believe your framing of austerity - they were fed those lies for a decade, and have had it.

People know austerity is only aboout redistributing wealth and power upwards - and that it only makes government finances less sustainable, not more sustainable.

No it isn't. If whoever wanted to do such a thing, they could easily do it outside a recession if they wanted.

KyussB wrote: »

People have now come back around to the need for strong fiscal stimulus to prop up the economy, at times of recession - not cratering the economy through austerity.

You've got no basis for such an assertion. Regardless, if we had tried to spend our way out of the last recession, we'd be in an even worse place then we are.

Yes, however, this time it may be different, but there is no guarantee spending our way out will work. And the longer we are in recession, the more spending we will need. It's still not a good argument to continue on our current path indefinitely.

Logan Roy

LillySV wrote: »

I have read the title and made the point earlier that this virus is killing and destroying everyone, including the young .... even a good lot of the young who survive have reduced lung function.... why someone would even question or suggest that the world should be prioritizing wealth and materialism over the health of other humans shocks Me... glad it’s only a small number that think likethat... cause world would be on a downward spiral and absolutely fuct if most in society valued money over other people’s health

How can you not realise that this exact scenario takes place every single day?

Why do you think we don't spend every cent of tax on health?

niallo27

LillySV wrote: »

I have read the title and made the point earlier that this virus is killing and destroying everyone, including the young .... even a good lot of the young who survive have reduced lung function.... why someone would even question or suggest that the world should be prioritizing wealth and materialism over the health of other humans shocks Me... glad it’s only a small number that think likethat... cause world would be on a downward spiral and absolutely fuct if most in society valued money over other people’s health

Where is the proof that a good lot of the young people as you say have reduced lung capacity. This is not true, horse**** like this is not helping.

CtevenSrowder

LillySV wrote: »

I have read the title and made the point earlier that this virus is killing and destroying everyone, including the young .... even a good lot of the young who survive have reduced lung function.... why someone would even question or suggest that the world should be prioritizing wealth and materialism over the health of other humans shocks Me... glad it’s only a small number that think likethat... cause world would be on a downward spiral and absolutely fuct if most in society valued money over other people’s health

Right, you read the title. Now try reading the thread, or at least some of it. The points are fleshed out as to why your thinking is over simplistic. Answer me these "materialistic" questions. If Ireland enters a recession, due to our current course of action being implemented for a long time:

How will those that rely on charities for food, water and clothing survive when the funding for charities inevitable dries up?
How will we afford basic, and not so basic, medicines?
How will you feel when all sorts of social services are cut (again) because the government needs to stop spending so much money?
How will you feel when the government refuses to hire more doctors and nurses because they can't afford to, including mental health professionals?
How will you feel when we have yet even more homelessness as people have lost livelyhoods and eventually houses or can't afford to pay rent?

I doubt you'll be banging on about materialism if the above happens.

KyussB

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

The future also can't be predicted. What makes you so sure we'll spend our way out? What if we don't? What if we try to and things become worse?



No it isn't. If whoever wanted to do such a thing, they could easily do it outside a recession if they wanted.



You've got no basis for such an assertion. Regardless, if we had tried to spend our way out of the last recession, we'd be in an even worse place then we are.

Yes, however, this time it may be different, but there is no guarantee spending our way out will work. And the longer we are in recession, the more spending we will need. It's still not a good argument to continue on our current path indefinitely.

We're not going to make policy, based on government threats of austerity in the future.

Good luck convincing the general public that austerity isn't just a power/wealth grab - that's exactly what we all saw in the last decade+.

We already are using massive fiscal spending to tackle recession. The central banks are also 'out of ammo' when it comes to fighting deflation with monetary policy - and this leaves only fiscal policy i.e. massive government spending, as the only way left to avoid deflation.

You don't understand government finances or macroeconomics. Austerity prolongs recessions by strangling GDP, and governemnt spending accelerates recovery from recessions by stimulating GDP.

KyussB

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Right, you read the title. Now try reading the thread, or at least some of it. The points are fleshed out as to why your thinking is over simplistic. Answer me these "materialistic" questions. If Ireland enters a recession, due to our current course of action being implemented for a long time:

How will those that rely on charities for food, water and clothing survive when the funding for charities inevitable dries up?
How will we afford basic, and not so basic, medicines?
How will you feel when all sorts of social services are cut (again) because the government needs to stop spending so much money?
How will you feel when the government refuses to hire more doctors and nurses because they can't afford to, including mental health professionals?
How will you feel when we have yet even more homelessness as people have lost livelyhoods and eventually houses or can't afford to pay rent?

I doubt you'll be banging on about materialism if the above happens.

None of that is inevitable - all funding cuts are solely a political choice - there is no econonic reason for cuts in a recession - massive expansion in government spending is the fast way out of recessions.

You base all of your arguments on austerity happening. The public knows austerity is bullshit and just a power/wealth grab - which prolongs recessions.

growleaves

"Wealth and materialism"

It isn't just a matter of having nice things. The worldwide system of food production and distribution keeps 7.7 billion and counting people alive. We have a globally interdependent economy, so it isn't simply a matter of farmers working and everyone else hiding in a bunker.

The world economy can't be suspended indefinitely.

CtevenSrowder

KyussB wrote: »

We're not going to make policy, based on government threats of austerity in the future.

Good luck convincing the general public that austerity isn't just a power/wealth grab - that's exactly what we all saw in the last decade+.

We already are using massive fiscal spending to tackle recession. The central banks are also 'out of ammo' when it comes to fighting deflation with monetary policy - and this leaves only fiscal policy i.e. massive government spending, as the only way left to avoid deflation.

You don't understand government finances or macroeconomics. Austerity prolongs recessions by strangling GDP, and governemnt spending accelerates recovery from recessions by stimulating GDP.

You don't seem to have much understanding yourself considering you think we can spend all our problems away every single recession.

growleaves

Where is the proof that a good lot of the young people as you say have reduced lung capacity.

There is no proof.

A lot of victims of Covid-19 already have diminished lung capacity from air pollution and smoking which is why they're faring so badly.

CtevenSrowder

KyussB wrote: »

None of that is inevitable - all funding cuts are solely a political choice - there is no econonic reason for cuts in a recession - massive expansion in government spending is the fast way out of recessions.

You base all of your arguments on austerity happening. The public knows austerity is bullshit and just a power/wealth grab - which prolongs recessions.

I preclude them on the basis that it's more likely to happen. You still havn't backed up your assertion, that's just your opinion of what you think the public thinks.

KyussB

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

You don't seem to have much understanding yourself considering you think we can spend all our problems away every single recession.

Unless your recession is caused by massive supply constraints (e.g. a huge drop in oil supply and spike in prices), or an irreversible collapse of potential GDP (such as from physical destruction of parts of industry e.g. during a war) - then stimulating the economy (e.g. through government spending) is the fastest way out of recession - that's how macroeconomics works.

A lot of it is simple accounting that anyone can learn and do the math on, if they bother.

KyussB

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

I preclude them on the basis that it's more likely to happen. You still havn't backed up your assertion, that's just your opinion of what you think the public thinks.

You've no basis in saying it's likely to happen. That the central banks have stretched monetary policy to its limit, leaving only fiscal policy to avoid deflation - that makes it extremely unlikely, unless you want massive deflation.

CtevenSrowder

KyussB wrote: »

You've no basis in saying it's likely to happen. That the central banks have stretched monetary policy to its limit, leaving only fiscal policy to avoid deflation - that makes it extremely unlikely, unless you want massive deflation.

I do, based on precedent. Let's hope you are correct, because I don't think anyone can face into another 5-10 years of austerity

BoatMad

KyussB wrote: »

You've no basis in saying it's likely to happen. That the central banks have stretched monetary policy to its limit, leaving only fiscal policy to avoid deflation - that makes it extremely unlikely, unless you want massive deflation.

they havent stretched it to helicopter money , thats coming next !

LillySV

niallo27 wrote: »

Where is the proof that a good lot of the young people as you say have reduced lung capacity. This is not true, horse**** like this is not helping.

Go on to google and type “does corona damage lungs” and I’m sure you will get your answer . Any other well known facts you want to deny? Are u going to deny the Holocaust too ??? Now do me a favor ... if your not aware of a well known fact, just try educate yourself first before you accuse someone of talking **** cause that kind of ignorance and stupidity will not help us fight the virus

LillySV

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Right, you read the title. Now try reading the thread, or at least some of it. The points are fleshed out as to why your thinking is over simplistic. Answer me these "materialistic" questions. If Ireland enters a recession, due to our current course of action being implemented for a long time:

How will those that rely on charities for food, water and clothing survive when the funding for charities inevitable dries up?
How will we afford basic, and not so basic, medicines?
How will you feel when all sorts of social services are cut (again) because the government needs to stop spending so much money?
How will you feel when the government refuses to hire more doctors and nurses because they can't afford to, including mental health professionals?
How will you feel when we have yet even more homelessness as people have lost livelyhoods and eventually houses or can't afford to pay rent?

I doubt you'll be banging on about materialism if the above happens.

The same as has happened in the past, people will have to cut down to the basics, food water and a place to stay ... they will have to choose what they can afford ...people will have to work hard and save to get back up on their feet... taxes on this work and on goods and services will help pay for health system ... same as before

LillySV

growleaves wrote: »

There is no proof.

A lot of victims of Covid-19 already have diminished lung capacity from air pollution and smoking which is why they're faring so badly.

Jesas there’s two of ye on this with this ****e ... I hope schools do get started again so ye can go back and do your junior certs

Have a look at this link Below for example of proof of damage... but if you do a general google of corona and damage it causes ... u will get many more sources

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/abcnews4.com/amp/news/coronavirus/see-how-covid-19-can-damage-a-persons-lungs-in-3d-virtual-reality

BoatMad

I dont understand this line of thinking , are people seriously suggesting that we do nothing and let an incredibly contagious virus run rampant , ie Italy on steroids

People that advance teh notion its not a good approach , dont seem to have a real alternative workable scenario

ITman88

LillySV wrote: »

The same as has happened in the past, people will have to cut down to the basics, food water and a place to stay ...

Food and water is that it? So that’s what we would be able to afford?

Interestingly you are talking about a standard quality of life in Ireland similar to the turn of the 1900s.
When the very people who were vulnerable didn’t live long after birth due to lack of healthcare, and the life expectancy was a whopping 50 odd years.

It’s in very recent times the quality of life in this country has improved and it’s due to our prosperous economy.

Anyhow, the point of discussion in the thread is how long can current measures be in place, not that anyone on this thread want’s the current measure’s lifted, just how long can they remain in place before the effects become catastrophic.

Some posters were suggesting 2 years so you could imagine things would be bleak to say the least.

Another poster mentioned mental health was akin to attention seeking, some vids in circulation from Italy suggest otherwise however.

ITman88

Logan Roy wrote: »

How can you not realise that this exact scenario takes place every single day?

Why do you think we don't spend every cent of tax on health?

People seem very disillusioned with how the world operates, perhaps due to a sense of entitlement!

Pensions and benefit are bigger costs to Ireland than healthcare.

We are all but a number, we call it a PPS number here, some of us work and pay taxes with it, some claim benefit with it.

Some of the guys that post here may take offence to this, so I’ll apologise in advance

LillySV

ITman88 wrote: »

Food and water is that it? So that’s what we would be able to afford?

Interestingly you are talking about a standard quality of life in Ireland similar to the turn of the 1900s.
When the very people who were vulnerable didn’t live long after birth due to lack of healthcare, and the life expectancy was a whopping 50 odd years.

It’s in very recent times the quality of life in this country has improved and it’s due to our prosperous economy.

Anyhow, the point of discussion in the thread is how long can current measures be in place, not that anyone on this thread want’s the current measure’s lifted, just how long can they remain in place before the effects become catastrophic.

Some posters were suggesting 2 years so you could imagine things would be bleak to say the least.

Another poster mentioned mental health was akin to attention seeking, some vids in circulation from Italy suggest otherwise however.

i hope this is all over soon...its very unlikely...but most are trying to do the best they can to help us get on with it.... and the biggest effort everyone makes, then the quicker we will recover...

We can all see for ourselves how terribly wrong the Uk were to try considering the other herd immunity (let life carry on as is) approach....massive casualties..id hate to think how it wouldve turned out if they didnt do the u turn

in regard to cutting back to essentials if needs be...cutting our cloth to measure etc...not sure if u seen vid going around on whatsapp of old woman who was asked about staying inside for a while...it was highlighted then that she had to hide in a well for three years during ww2 in order to stay alive!!
Stayin in isnt to hard in comparison

KyussB

BoatMad wrote: »

they havent stretched it to helicopter money , thats coming next !

Ya pretty much - the same effectively, as sidelining monetary policy, in favour of fiscal policy.

LillySV

LillySV wrote: »

Go on to google and type “does corona damage lungs” and I’m sure you will get your answer . Any other well known facts you want to deny? Are u going to deny the Holocaust too ??? Now do me a favor ... if your not aware of a well known fact, just try educate yourself first before you accuse someone of talking **** cause that kind of ignorance and stupidity will not help us fight the virus

I don't think you can state anything as 'well known facts' when it's a new illness that was only discovered a few months ago and is still being investigated.

growleaves

Jesas there’s two of ye on this with this ****e ... I hope schools do get started again so ye can go back and do your junior certs

Lol

growleaves

People seem very disillusioned with how the world operates, perhaps due to a sense of entitlement!

I don't think its a sense of entitlement, more a sense of altruism without perspective. People want to be good.

Pointing out that putting the country on the track to ruin will diminish hospital services, diminish life expectancy, increase suicides is a little abstract. All of that misery is in the future.

growleaves

in regard to cutting back to essentials if needs be...cutting our cloth to measure etc...not sure if u seen vid going around on whatsapp of old woman who was asked about staying inside for a while...it was highlighted then that she had to hide in a well for three years during ww2 in order to stay alive!!
Stayin in isnt to hard in comparison

Prisoners' rights groups object to 23-hour lockdown in California prisons. They call it cruel and barbaric, and I agree. I admit its less bad than hiding in a well for three years.

If everyone in Europe and the US hides in a well for three years expect food shortages followed by mass starvation.

Goodnight

snoopboggybog

Once you have a roof over your head and food your not doing to bad.

I think a lot of people are now afraid that there 2020 car is going be taken by the banks which they could barely afford anyway and will be in a mountain of debt six months down the line. This just shows living pay check to pay check doesn't work and probably want to "Keep up appearances" with the neighbors.

Hopefully it wakes people up on how important money is and don't live pay check to pay check where possible.

niallo27

LillySV wrote: »

Go on to google and type “does corona damage lungs” and I’m sure you will get your answer . Any other well known facts you want to deny? Are u going to deny the Holocaust too ??? Now do me a favor ... if your not aware of a well known fact, just try educate yourself first before you accuse someone of talking **** cause that kind of ignorance and stupidity will not help us fight the virus

You stated a good lot of the younger people will have reduced lung capacity afterwards. This is impossible to know this soon and just so you know you can google anything, it does not make it true. Your link said it could cause lung damage, its impossible to know this so quickly. Comparing this disease to the holocaust is a bit bat **** crazy if I'm honest with ya.

TheCitizen

ITman88 wrote: »

People seem very disillusioned with how the world operates, perhaps due to a sense of entitlement!

Pensions and benefit are bigger costs to Ireland than healthcare.

We are all but a number, we call it a PPS number here, some of us work and pay taxes with it, some claim benefit with it.

Some of the guys that post here may take offence to this, so I’ll apologise in advance

Anything to back up what you said there. If it’s true what you say is there anything to suggest that Ireland is any different to other countries in this regard? What about the overlap where a family on family income supplement maybe entitled to medical cards and people on old age pension are also entitled to a medical card, is that a cost to the health service or are you going to throw that in with the pensions and benefits pot.

TheCitizen

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Ffs. Around in circles we go. Yes you left wingers are so morally superior to those in the center and the right. We get it.

Indeed, for you the bottom line is we must always be governed by Centre Right governments at all costs, with you claiming to be a Centrist when you’re anything but that.