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The strategy of favouring the old and the vulnerable will prove disastrous long term.
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True, I'd prefer to be bankrupt financially rather than morally.IvoryTower wrote: »I vote to keep my parents and be poor, I can live with that
It's not even my parent tbh, my missus is high risk, all my brothers and son have asthma. **** the money tbh0 -
TheCitizen wrote: »Indeed, for you the bottom line is we must always be governed by Centre Right governments at all costs, with you claiming to be a Centrist when you’re anything but that.
Who said we must always be governed by center right government's? I believe in democracy, it seems that you don't.0 -
The same as has happened in the past, people will have to cut down to the basics, food water and a place to stay ... they will have to choose what they can afford ...people will have to work hard and save to get back up on their feet... taxes on this work and on goods and services will help pay for health system ... same as before
What if they can't afford a place to stay or food? I'll guess well all just go back to growing and eating patatoes like what "happened in the past".
Which section of society do you think will be hit hardest by your cut back to basics approach? The rich or the poor? The vulnerable or the not so vulnerable?
Amazing that you appear happy to turn Ireland back into the 2nd or 3rd World country it used to be without thinking of the consequences of such a decision.0 -
CtevenSrowder wrote: »Who said we must always be governed by center right government's? I believe in democracy, it seems that you don't.
You won’t countenance anything else. You’re the one and the party you support that is being undemocratic, refusing to acknowledge the democratic mandate of opposition parties.0 -
TheCitizen wrote: »You won’t countenance anything else. You’re the one and the party you support that is being undemocratic, refusing to acknowledge the democratic mandate of opposition parties.
Another invention of your mind. Quote me where I've refused to acknowledge the mandate of opposition parties, or indeed any party.
Are you sure you're aware of what you are saying? Considering you'd difficulty with such a thing yesterday.
Edit: BTW, I've just read this article
How did Spain get its coronavirus response so wrong?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/26/spain-coronavirus-response-analysis?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
Which flys in the face of your earlier rubbish about slow responses being due to a "rightist approach".
"Spain's socialist led government..."0 -
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CtevenSrowder wrote: »What if they can't afford a place to stay or food? I'll guess well all just go back to growing and eating patatoes like what "happened in the past".
Which section of society do you think will be hit hardest by your cut back to basics approach? The rich or the poor? The vulnerable or the not so vulnerable?
Amazing that you appear happy to turn Ireland back into the 2nd or 3rd World country it used to be without thinking of the consequences of such a decision.
You have no choice...give me you alternative option and explain how it will work0 -
You have no choice...give me you alternative option and explain how it will work
Ffs. Been here already on this thread. In a quick nutshell. Do what we're doing until start of May, June latest. Bring numbers down and get as much control over the virus as possible. If not completely eradicated, tell those that are vulnerable to self isolate whilst those that aren't go back to work. Keep high rates of testing to find new cases early.0 -
CtevenSrowder wrote: »Another invention of your mind. Quote me where I've refused to acknowledge the mandate of opposition parties, or indeed any party.
Are you sure you're aware of what you are saying? Considering you'd difficulty with such a thing yesterday.
You pick and choose what you answer yourself. You ignored the post on page 38 where I exposed you for your partisanship.
I knew exactly what I was saying in what you’re referring to, I had already explained it to you but you either don’t get it or more likely you just argue anyway. The lockdown can not have a definitive timeline at this juncture, you refuse to accept that like a child who keeps asking after something that cannot be immediately delivered.
You’re an FG fanboy or an FF one doesn’t matter. As a fan of either of those you’re chief concern is to continue the stranglehold over Political power in Ireland that those two have had. In previous years they had control over both government and opposition, that’s coming to an end and your days of the ability to exclude others from power just cos it doesn’t suit your parties narrow political situation is coming to an end. There will be more mature people in those parties that will acknowledge the fundamental change in the Irish political landscape and the party that younger voters have turned to will do business with whichever of them when more reasonable people gain more control. For now we have to put up with boring immature irritants like Patrick O’Donavon playing silly buggers about putting together a government while the country faces one of its biggest challenges in its history. You sound like an online fanboy version of Patrick O’Donavon. Arguing for the sake of it and protecting an ever decreasing stranglehold over political power and jobs for the boys.
Most of us have greater concerns and realise that such narrow turgid conservatism doesn’t cut it even when things are going well nevermind in current challenging circumstances.0 -
CtevenSrowder wrote: »Ffs. Been here already on this thread. In a quick nutshell. Do what we're doing until start of May, June latest. Bring numbers down and get as much control over the virus as possible. If not completely eradicated, tell those that are vulnerable to self isolate whilst those that aren't go back to work. Keep high rates of testing to find new cases early.
“FFS ........blah blah blah.....”. You haven’t a clue. Stop pretending that you do.0 -
CtevenSrowder wrote: »Ffs. Been here already on this thread. In a quick nutshell. Do what we're doing until start of May, June latest. Bring numbers down and get as much control over the virus as possible. If not completely eradicated, tell those that are vulnerable to self isolate whilst those that aren't go back to work. Keep high rates of testing to find new cases early.
How did that go for UK? in regard to high rates, they havent got the kits for high rate testing....and they have changed the goalposts for requiring a test now anyways...have to have high temperature..even though high temperature wasnt a factor in many cases... and those who actually do get tested..a good number of have to wait a week for the result...too late!0 -
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How did that go for UK? in regard to high rates, they havent got the kits for high rate testing....and they have changed the goalposts for requiring a test now anyways...have to have high temperature..even though high temperature wasnt a factor in many cases... and those who actually do get tested..a good number of have to wait a week for the result...too late!
The Uk didn't do what I proposed. I'm talking about Ireland. We did self isolate early, it so far appears to be working. We should keep doing it till around May/June time. And then go forth as I suggested.0 -
TheCitizen wrote: »You pick and choose what you answer yourself. You ignored the post on page 38 where I exposed you for your partisanship.
What questions haven't I answered? Which post is that? No evidence of me refusing to acknowledge any political mandates here.
Edit: I found the post in question. I missed it yesterday.TheCitizen wrote: »I knew exactly what I was saying in what you’re referring to, I had already explained it to you but you either don’t get it or more likely you just argue anyway. The lockdown can not have a definitive timeline at this juncture, you refuse to accept that like a child who keeps asking after something that cannot be immediately delivered.
Yes, it doesn't have a definite timeline. As such we are shutdown for an unspecified period of time, or, put another way, an indefinite period of time. It is very, very simple.TheCitizen wrote: »You’re an FG fanboy or an FF one doesn’t matter. As a fan of either of those you’re chief concern is to continue the stranglehold over Political power in Ireland that those two have had.
I'm not a "fanboy". No evidence of me refusing to acknowledge any political mandates here either. I had the greens and soc dems marked on my last ballot paper.TheCitizen wrote: »In previous years they had control over both government and opposition, that’s coming to an end and your days of the ability to exclude others from power just cos it doesn’t suit your parties narrow political situation is coming to an end. There will be more mature people in those parties that will acknowledge the fundamental change in the Irish political landscape and the party that younger voters have turned to will do business with whichever of them when more reasonable people gain more control. For now we have to put up with boring immature irritants like Patrick O’Donavon playing silly buggers about putting together a government while the country faces one of its biggest challenges in its history. You sound like an online fanboy version of Patrick O’Donavon. Arguing for the sake of it and protecting an ever decreasing stranglehold over political power and jobs for the boys.
Noone is being "excluded". Labour and the Greens have both been in government in recent times. You aware of this yes. I don't know who Patrick O'Donovan is.
You are just upset that the majority of the electorate don't share your political views and are as such throwing yout toys out of the pram and shouting about people being excluded. This isn't true.TheCitizen wrote: »Most of us have greater concerns and realise that such narrow turgid conservatism doesn’t cut it even when things are going well nevermind in current challenging circumstances.
And still no evidence of me denying anyone any mandate. There is no evidence, as I haven't done it. I'm glad we've cleared that up.0 -
CtevenSrowder wrote: »What questions haven't I answered? Which post is that? No evidence of me refusing to acknowledge any political mandates here.
Edit: I found the post in question. I missed it yesterday.
And still haven't answered it...don't bother.CtevenSrowder wrote: »Yes, it doesn't have a definite timeline. As such we are shutdown for an unspecified period of time, or, put another way, an indefinite period of time. It is very, very simple.
And yet you still don't appear to get itCtevenSrowder wrote: »I'm not a "fanboy". No evidence of me refusing to acknowledge any political mandates here either. I had the greens and soc dems marked on my last ballot paper.
:pac:CtevenSrowder wrote: »Noone is being "excluded". Labour and the Greens have both been in government in recent times. You aware of this yes. I don't know who Patrick O'Donovan is.
Hi PatrickCtevenSrowder wrote: »You are just upset that the majority of the electorate don't share your political views and are as such throwing yout toys out of the pram and shouting about people being excluded. This isn't true.
I'm describing what is happening in Irish politics as those who have been used to being in power since forever find their support is incrementally eroding and they're clinging on for as long as they can. I supported SF in the last election, I haven't always voted for them, but for me they represent some hope of reform in areas like health and housing because they're not beholding to vested interests in those areas. They'll be contented for now with leading opposition, they'll have to because FG and FF are conspiring to keep them out of government and so we have a situation where FG agree they lost the election but still carry on in government anyway.CtevenSrowder wrote: »And still no evidence of me denying anyone any mandate. There is no evidence, as I haven't done it. I'm glad we've cleared that up.
:pac: For someone whom claims they vote Green and Soc Dems you're going a long way out of your way to defend the Right of the political spectrum. Pointless discussing anything with someone who refuses to acknowledge that the political landscape has changed in this country.
The Greens and the Soc Dems he says:pac:0 -
CtevenSrowder wrote: »The Uk didn't do what I proposed. I'm talking about Ireland. We did self isolate early, it so far appears to be working. We should keep doing it till around May/June time. And then go forth as I suggested.
Go forth and multiply perhaps says the so called Green party supporter:pac:0 -
TheCitizen wrote: »And still haven't answered it...don't bother.
Why? Not fancy another intellectual take down?TheCitizen wrote: »And yet you still don't appear to get it
I do get it. The situation changes nearly daily, as such the government and their advisors have put no definitive timeline on when these measures will end. As such, we are under the current measures for an indefinite period of time. As I said simple. You just can't accept you claimed something that wasn't true:TheCitizen wrote: »
Hi Patrick
Nope, I'm not him. Sorry.TheCitizen wrote: »I'm describing what is happening in Irish politics as those who have been used to being in power since forever find their support is incrementally eroding and they're clinging on for as long as they can. I supported SF in the last election, I haven't always voted for them, but for me they represent some hope of reform in areas like health and housing because they're not beholding to vested interests in those areas. They'll be contented for now with leading opposition, they'll have to because FG and FF are conspiring to keep them out of government and so we have a situation where FG agree they lost the election but still carry on in government anyway.
No party has an overall, clear mandate to form a government. No party can be forced to go into government with another. You were complaining that there were no alternatives, then that there were no "real" alternatives, and now you are saying that there is a conspiracy to keep Sinn Fein out of Government. Which is it?
Suggesting there has been some monumental shift in Irish politics based on one election is naive at best. Likewise goes for the Torys in Britain. A lot of soft votes for both them and Sinn Fein.TheCitizen wrote: »:pac: For someone whom claims they vote Green and Soc Dems you're going a long way out of your way to defend the Right of the political spectrum. Pointless discussing anything with someone who refuses to acknowledge that the political landscape has changed in this country.
The Greens and the Soc Dems he says:pac:
I had FG 1 and 2, Greens 3 and Soc Dems 4. As I've said, I'm politically in the centre. I've always voted Green, yes. I know that might be hard to contemplate based on your all or nothing view of things.TheCitizen wrote: »Go forth and multiply perhaps says the so called Green party supporter:pac:
I support there overall aim in regards to climate change, and think they play an important role, but only as a minority if in a government. As I said, I'm a centrist.
You've still produced no evidence that I support, or that anyone has denied anyone else a mandate. Such a ridiculous claim.0 -
CtevenSrowder wrote: »Why? Not fancy another intellectual take down?
I do get it. The situation changes nearly daily, as such the government and their advisors have put no definitive timeline on when these measures will end. As such, we are under the current measures for an indefinite period of time. As I said simple. You just can't accept you claimed something that wasn't true:
Nope, I'm not him. Sorry.
No party has an overall, clear mandate to form a government. No party can be forced to go into government with another. You were complaining that there were no alternatives, then that there were no "real" alternatives, and now you are saying that there is a conspiracy to keep Sinn Fein out of Government. Which is it?
Suggesting there has been some monumental shift in Irish politics based on one election is naive at best. Likewise goes for the Torys in Britain. A lot of soft votes for both them and Sinn Fein.
I had FG 1 and 2, Greens 3 and Soc Dems 4. As I've said, I'm politically in the centre. I've always voted Green, yes. I know that might be hard to contemplate based on your all or nothing view of things.
I support there overall aim in regards to climate change, and think they play an important role, but only as a minority if in a government. As I said, I'm a centrist.
You've still produced no evidence that I support, or that anyone has denied anyone else a mandate. Such a ridiculous claim.
As I suspected a FG fanboy. If you vote FG you're not a Centrist, you never were and you definitely aren't now with recent changes.
You'll go around in circles arguing on this issue or any other for that matter from a narrow political and unimaginatively turgid conservative persuasion. You gave the Greens 3 on the ballot paper and that somehow means you're open to alternatives:pac:.
There was a time FF/FG had about 80 percent of the electorate in this country, that has contracted year after year election after election to the point that they will now actually go into government together without the Confidence and Supply have your cake and eat it scam and they don't even have enough between them to form an overall majority. It's not a one off flash in the pan election result, it's been building incrementally in this direction over several elections. If you think that hasn't represented a major shift in Irish politics it's you that is being naive. Carry on, keep the head in the sand.0 -
TheCitizen wrote: »As I suspected a FG fanboy. If you vote FG you're not a Centrist, you never were and you definitely aren't now with recent changes.
Why not? You're just making more baseless claims. It may come as shock, but voting for a party doesn't mean you agree with every policy they have.TheCitizen wrote: »You'll go around in circles arguing on this issue or any other for that matter from a narrow political and unimaginatively turgid conservative persuasion. You gave the Greens 3 on the ballot paper and that somehow means you're open to alternatives:pac:.
You understand how our political system works don't you? The Greens got the largest number of seats they've ever received in a GE. My vote contributed to that.TheCitizen wrote: »There was a time FF/FG had about 80 percent of the electorate in this country, that has contracted year after year election after election to the point that they will now actually go into government together without the Confidence and Supply have your cake and eat it scam and they don't even have enough between them to form an overall majority. It's not a one off flash in the pan election result, it's been building incrementally in this direction over several elections. If you think that hasn't represented a major shift in Irish politics it's you that is being naive. Carry on, keep the head in the sand.
None of which backs up your argument that they are conspiring to keep anyone out of government.0 -
CtevenSrowder wrote: »Why not? You're just making more baseless claims. It may come as shock, but voting for a party doesn't mean you agree with every policy they have.
Because even if you're an old fashioned Centrist you still wouldn't be an FG voter.CtevenSrowder wrote: »You understand how our political system works don't you? The Greens got the largest number of seats they've ever received in a GE. My vote contributed to that.
Yeah I do know how PR works. You're an FG voter and then down the ballot paper you give others a vote when all FG candidates are voted for, big deal.CtevenSrowder wrote: »None of which backs up your argument that they are conspiring to keep anyone out of government.
FG said they lost the election and were bitter about it. They know SF can't form a government without either FF or FG, the numbers simply aren't there. So FF and FG between them are refusing to go into government with SF and keeping them out. That looks and sounds like a conspiracy to me. They wouldn't even enter into talks with them on it.
Actually when the results started coming out Michael Martin your sister party leader was softening his stance towards SF as it looked like FF would be about 7 seats head of them initially. When it became clearer that the parties would be more or less neck and neck and that would entail a revolving Taoiseach in an FF/SF deal MM changed tack and instead we'll get your lot still in government despite them saying themselves they lost the election.
The younger new electorate in particular did not vote for more of the same (FF+FG), but that's what they're going to get. Another election and we'll see how that pans out for your lot.0 -
Just look at the graph half-way down this page...
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/mar/26/us-unemployment-rate-coronavirus-business
Compare the 2008 peak, to what was just recorded. 2008 seemed like the end of the world at the time.
There are no words.0 -
TheCitizen wrote: »Because even if you're an old fashioned Centrist you still wouldn't be an FG voter.
in your opinion. A baseless claim. They are centre right party.TheCitizen wrote: »Yeah I do know how PR works. You're an FG voter and then down the ballot paper you give others a vote when all FG candidates are voted for, big deal.
Ye big deal. Why would a "fan boy" give a vote to another party?TheCitizen wrote: »FG said they lost the election and were bitter about it. They know SF can't form a government without either FF or FG, the numbers simply aren't there. So FF and FG between them are refusing to go into government with SF and keeping them out. That looks and sounds like a conspiracy to me. They wouldn't even enter into talks with them on it.
Do you want FG in government or not? For someone who seems to hate them so much you seem desperate for them to form a government with SF.TheCitizen wrote: »Actually when the results started coming out Michael Martin your sister party leader was softening his stance towards SF as it looked like FF would be about 7 seats head of them initially. When it became clearer that the parties would be more or less neck and neck and that would entail a revolving Taoiseach in an FF/SF deal MM changed tack and instead we'll get your lot still in government despite them saying themselves they lost the election.
The younger new electorate in particular did not vote for more of the same (FF+FG), but that's what they're going to get. Another election and we'll see how that pans out for your lot.
Take then up with MM then. FF and FG are closer politically to eachother then they are SF. So it should be no surprise that they'd rather govern with eachother then with SF. SF would ultimatly prefer a left-wing coalition, because they are politically on the left. That doesn't mean they are conspiring to keep FG and FF out of government, but are trying to form one that would ultimately work more efficiently. Regardless this is wildly off topic, so it's the last I'll say on it.0 -
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/health-51979654
Interesting article.
Comparison between economic recession death rate vs Covid 19 death rate0 -
My brother in law is going to lose his job if the lockdown goes beyond May. He is a quantity surveyor. He said that engineers in his company will also be let go. The government has to ease restrictions by May.0
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