tolls not accepting cash or cards

GM228

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/shopping/pricing/rules-on-pricing/

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/consumer_protection/consumer_rights/unfair_terms.html

S.I. No. 27/1995 - European Communities (Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts) Regulations, 1995. (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1995/si/27/made/en/print?)

I am sorry but you are wrong. It's written in Black and White regarding the requirement to display the correct price as well as fairness in the contract and more importantly as I have argued from the start, the right to withdraw from the agreement where the shop isn't willing to give change.

The 1995 Regulations do not change the common law position in relation to invitation to treat, offer, acceptance or conclusion of a contract when buying goods with a displayed price, in fact when the EU brought about a Directive which specifically had a condition to invitation to treat, or invitation to purchase as they called it, it was specifically without prejudice to the law of contract.

It only makes a term invalid if the final price is too high in relation to the price agreed when the contract was concluded.

No price is agreed until the offeror makes an offer, the offeree can then accept or reject that offer and only then is a price agreed and the contract concluded.

A price displayed on goods for sale is not an offer, therefore no price is yet agreed.

GM228

GM228 wrote: »

The 1995 Regulations do not change the common law position in relation to invitation to treat, offer, acceptance or conclusion of a contract when buying goods with a displayed price, in fact when the EU brought about a Directive which specifically had a condition to invitation to treat, or invitation to purchase as they called it, it was specifically without prejudice to the law of contract.

It only makes a term invalid if the final price is too high in relation to the price agreed when the contract was concluded.

No price is agreed until the offeror makes an offer, the offeree can then accept or reject that offer and only then is a price agreed and the contract concluded.

A price displayed on goods for sale is not an offer, therefore no price is yet agreed.

No, I realise that. They do however show that good faith / fairness is a legal requirement in contracts.

I disagree about the price issue. By displaying a price, you are inviting a purchase at that price.

Similarly, by stating a price for use of the m50 toll you are inviting people to drive through your toll for that price and as there is no further action by the toll company, they can be no further discussion.

They set a price = offer
I drive through the toll = acceptance

Oh and dont mention common law, apparently that's some mad hippy crap made up by lunatics

GM228

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

No, I realise that. They do however show that good faith / fairness is a legal requirement in contracts.

I disagree about the price issue. By displaying a price, you are inviting a purchase at that price.

Similarly, by stating a price for use of the m50 toll you are inviting people to drive through your toll for that price and as there is no further action by the toll company, they can be no further discussion.

They set a price = offer
I drive through the toll = acceptance

Oh and dont mention common law, apparently that's some mad hippy crap made up by lunatics

This is incorrect, it is well established in law that an item with a price displayed is an invitation to treat, not an offer. The price is irrelevant until the offer stage.

ohnonotgmail

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

No, I realise that. They do however show that good faith / fairness is a legal requirement in contracts.

I disagree about the price issue. By displaying a price, you are inviting a purchase at that price.

Similarly, by stating a price for use of the m50 toll you are inviting people to drive through your toll for that price and as there is no further action by the toll company, they can be no further discussion.

They set a price = offer
I drive through the toll = acceptance

Oh and dont mention common law, apparently that's some mad hippy crap made up by lunatics

while you can certainly offer to purchase the item at the price displayed the retailer is under no obligation to accept

GM228

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

while you can certainly offer to purchase the item at the price displayed the retailer is under no obligation to accept

Indeed because as I already said the indication of a price is not an offer, it's no more than an invitation to treat, a position long held by the courts.

The key difference between an offer and invitation to treat as regards a price displayed can be explained by the fact that displaying a price is simply saying "I may be interested in selling this item for X"’, this is just an expression of interest and therefore an invitation to treat, picking up something to buy at an advertised price is not an acceptance of an offer, rather it's an offer to buy, and only when cash is handed up and accepted is an offer actually made and accepted.

So you are both going to ignore the automatic tolls and tills that I mentioned?

ohnonotgmail

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

So you are both going to ignore the automatic tolls and tills that I mentioned?

what is you think has been ignored? the point about prices displayed has already been answered and you are wrong. the point about giving change has already been answered and you are wrong

Peregrinus

Consider an automated car park with a sign outside that says "Parking. One euro per hour."

The design of the car park is such that you can't enter without taking a ticket, and you can't leave without using your ticket at an automated barrier. If you use your ticket within 10 minutes of entry you can exit for free; otherwise you'll need to pay. The machine accepts notes, coin and credit cards, but it doesn't give change.

Right. This is not like bringing an item to the checkout at a shop. Once you enter you're committed; you can't leave without paying. Plus, by the time you approach the barrier to leave, you have already used the service offered. So this is more like ordering a meal in a restaurant; the contract is formed, at the latest, when you eat the meal, or when you park your car. On a classical analysis, you are bound to pay for your parking.

So, you drive up to the barrier, having parked for three hours, and the machine wants three euros to lift the barrier. You have no credit card. You have no coins. But you have a five euro note. This will get you out, but you'll get no change.

Legally, what's the position?

And would the position be any different if the sign outside the car park said "Parking. One euro per hour. No change given."?

L1011

The Eastlink was FOC earlier today; presuming that's now the case for the forseeable.

GM228

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

So you are both going to ignore the automatic tolls and tills that I mentioned?

What exactly are we ignoring?

GM228

Peregrinus wrote: »

Consider an automated car park with a sign outside that says "Parking. One euro per hour."

The design of the car park is such that you can't enter without taking a ticket, and you can't leave without using your ticket at an automated barrier. If you use your ticket within 10 minutes of entry you can exit for free; otherwise you'll need to pay. The machine accepts notes, coin and credit cards, but it doesn't give change.

Right. This is not like bringing an item to the checkout at a shop. Once you enter you're committed; you can't leave without paying. Plus, by the time you approach the barrier to leave, you have already used the service offered. So this is more like ordering a meal in a restaurant; the contract is formed, at the latest, when you eat the meal, or when you park your car. On a classical analysis, you are bound to pay for your parking.

So, you drive up to the barrier, having parked for three hours, and the machine wants three euros to lift the barrier. You have no credit card. You have no coins. But you have a five euro note. This will get you out, but you'll get no change.

Legally, what's the position?

And would the position be any different if the sign outside the car park said "Parking. One euro per hour. No change given."?

Ok, so in this case we have a standing offer by the car park owner as opposed to an invitation to treat, in such circumstances the owner is considered to be holding the machine in readiness for use, thus constituting an offer as once activated you have reached the point of no return.

Displaying "no change given" is simply a term which you accept by operating the machine and entering, but, when not having said term and depositing more than the advertised price could it be argued that despite the contract being already agreed that a counter offer (or rather a variance of the original agreed offer) has been offered and accepted?

Peregrinus

GM228 wrote: »

Ok, so in this case we have a standing offer by the car park owner as opposed to an invitation to treat, in such circumstances the owner is considered to be holding the machine in readiness for use, thus constituting an offer as once activated you have reached the point of no return.

Displaying "no change given" is simply a term which you accept by operating the machine and entering, but, when not having said term and depositing more than the advertised price could it be argued that despite the contract being already agreed that a counter offer (or rather a variance of the original agreed offer) has been offered and accepted?

In my hypothetical, you don't pay to get into the carpark; you just take a ticket. A price is calculated (based on how long has passed since the time of entry ) and payment demanded in order to leave. So there is no "deposit".

I think the question is, is it an implied term of the contract that the car park operator will make reasonable change? And given that it's widespread practice in retail on-the-spot sales of goods and services that the vendor does make reasonable change, I think there's at least an argument in this context that, yes, it's an implied term, and that if the car park operator wants to exclude it he needs to do so explicitly before the contract is formed. (E.g. with a "no change given" sign that people can see before they enter the car park.)