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Cafes/Restaurants - Rent question

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  • 24-03-2020 11:18am
    #1
    gluppers
    Registered Users Posts: 469 ✭✭


    Apologies if wrong thread

    Any cafe and restaurant owners......

    Has the government mentioned anything about support regards rents, rate and other outgoings?

    How can small businesses pay their bills in this climate?


    Keep the faith!


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    #2
    jimmii
    Registered Users Posts: 14,810 ✭✭✭✭jimmii


    It's worth contacting your landlord see what they say. Our landlord actually contacted us to say they were happy for us to take a payment break and they even said if we wanted to cancel the contract completely they wouldn't object. All you can do is ask and see what they say.


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    #3
    PickYourName
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭PickYourName


    jimmii wrote: »
    It's worth contacting your landlord see what they say. Our landlord actually contacted us to say they were happy for us to take a payment break and they even said if we wanted to cancel the contract completely they wouldn't object. All you can do is ask and see what they say.

    Agree with this. We've two locations and both landlords have agreed to waive the rent for March. Next month, to be reviewed, but it's been a big help.


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    #4
    PickYourName
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭PickYourName


    Forget to add: Revenue have said it's OK to defer this months payroll taxes and VAT payment for Jan-Feb. Dublin City Council are also deferring rates for three months, payment schedule to be agreed later. I've somewhat a problem with this last one: I think they should just be waived, as how are we going to pay them when we're not open?


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    #5
    duffysfarm
    Registered Users Posts: 848 ✭✭✭duffysfarm


    I dont know why some people think landlords should reduce or waive rents. Are banks doing the same? Are suplliers doing the same? Are employees working for free?


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    #6
    PickYourName
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭PickYourName


    duffysfarm wrote: »
    I dont know why some people think landlords should reduce or waive rents. Are banks doing the same? Are suplliers doing the same? Are employees working for free?

    To answer your questions, yes, all three are making concessions.

    Banks: have increased our overdraft limit and have given a three month break on loan repayments. A deferral.

    Suppliers: all have agreed to suspend looking for payment on current amounts owed, whilst agreeing to enable new orders to be placed when the time comes. Balances owed to be scheduled at some future date.

    Employees: most (all?) have offered to do work for free. The only time we've taken them up on it is to prepare items made in our otherwise unused kitchen to drop up to staff in one of the hospitals.

    I would anticipate that at least some of the deferred amounts owed will ultimately be waived.

    By the way, apart from the employees, I don't know if any or all of the concessions is made from a sense of solidarity or just good business. The alternative is to try and recover the amounts owed right now. This is very unlikely to succeed (the cash certainly isn't sitting in a bank account someplace), would probably close us down and they'd ultinately get nothing. In the case of the landlords, they'd also be faced with trying to find a new tenant in what's likely to be a very weak market for them.

    That observation answers your question, by the way: out of a sense of national soldarity and/or good business sense is why people would expect landlords to reduce or waive rents.


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    #7
    duffysfarm
    Registered Users Posts: 848 ✭✭✭duffysfarm


    Banks and suplliers are deferrals and not waiving or writing off amounts. You are lucky if employees are offering to work for free, i think you are in a minority here.

    I agree that something should be done for solidarity to be practical but i think its unfair to single out landlords. Also if business is booming (which it isnt) does the landlord come looking for a cut of your profits?
    PickYourName wrote: »
    To answer your questions, yes, all three are making concessions.

    Banks: have increased our overdraft limit and have given a three month break on loan repayments. A deferral.

    Suppliers: all have agreed to suspend looking for payment on current amounts owed, whilst agreeing to enable new orders to be placed when the time comes. Balances owed to be scheduled at some future date.

    Employees: most (all?) have offered to do work for free. The only time we've taken them up on it is to prepare items made in our otherwise unused kitchen to drop up to staff in one of the hospitals.

    I would anticipate that at least some of the deferred amounts owed will ultimately be waived.

    By the way, apart from the employees, I don't know if any or all of the concessions is made from a sense of solidarity or just good business. The alternative is to try and recover the amounts owed right now. This is very unlikely to succeed (the cash certainly isn't sitting in a bank account someplace), would probably close us down and they'd ultinately get nothing. In the case of the landlords, they'd also be faced with trying to find a new tenant in what's likely to be a very weak market for them.

    That observation answers your question, by the way: out of a sense of national soldarity and/or good business sense is why people would expect landlords to reduce or waive rents.


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    #8
    PickYourName
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭PickYourName


    duffysfarm wrote: »
    Banks and suplliers are deferrals and not waiving or writing off amounts. You are lucky if employees are offering to work for free, i think you are in a minority here.

    I agree that something should be done for solidarity to be practical but i think its unfair to single out landlords. Also if business is booming (which it isnt) does the landlord come looking for a cut of your profits?

    Landlords are not being singled out!

    You mentioned banks, suppliers and employees: as I explained, all three have made concessions. I might add Revenue and DCC, both of whom have also agreed to deferred payments.

    I went looking for a waive of rent for three months (no harm in asking), and would have settled for a three month deferral, with a repayment schedule to be agreed at a later date. Both of our landlords offered a one month waiver, with a review next month, which I happily accepted.

    In other words, every single one of bodies we owe cash to have agreed to waive or defer it, most likely because it's their only chance of ever getting paid. Landlords are not being singled out.


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    #9
    Drifter50
    Registered Users Posts: 617 ✭✭✭Drifter50


    duffysfarm wrote: »
    Banks and suplliers are deferrals and not waiving or writing off amounts. You are lucky if employees are offering to work for free, i think you are in a minority here.

    I agree that something should be done for solidarity to be practical but i think its unfair to single out landlords. Also if business is booming (which it isnt) does the landlord come looking for a cut of your profits?

    You have an extraordinary angle on this. How do you think small businesses are going to pay their day to day commitments when closed?
    They have to take a payment holiday, no ifs or buts. If the landlord has a mortgage on the other side he/she can get a 3 month break
    In respect of the opposite, it would be in the landlords best interest to have his tenant doing well and making profit so it does`nt matter


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    #10
    duffysfarm
    Registered Users Posts: 848 ✭✭✭duffysfarm


    i wouldn't say extraordinary more fair and balanced. I have nothing against deferral and if you take the time to read my post you will see that. What i would have an issue with is some one not paying their land lord but still paying their suppliers or employees. there is a world of a difference between deferring a payment and not making a payment. its a tough time for everyone including the evil landlords


    Drifter50 wrote: »
    You have an extraordinary angle on this. How do you think small businesses are going to pay their day to day commitments when closed?
    They have to take a payment holiday, no ifs or buts. If the landlord has a mortgage on the other side he/she can get a 3 month break
    In respect of the opposite, it would be in the landlords best interest to have his tenant doing well and making profit so it does`nt matter


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    #11
    PickYourName
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭PickYourName


    duffysfarm wrote: »
    What i would have an issue with is some one not paying their land lord but still paying their suppliers or employees.

    Who said anyone was doing that? Right now, we're not paying anyone.

    What you said was that landlords were being singled out; as I keep saying, they are not.

    You're correct in that deferral is not the same as waiving. However, I would expect landlords (rent) and the local authority (rates) to be a bit more willing to conceded to the latter rather than former. Suppliers are owed cash for goods actually supplied; VAT is owed for goods already sold; PAYE etc. for payroll already paid. Rent and rates for the period when we're closed is for a property that is not being used.

    It is perfectly normal to negotiate a rent-free period as part of a lease at the start to take account of the period when work is being done to fit it out and no income is being generated. What's wrong with asking for the same in truly exceptional circumstances, when the same thing applies?

    As I said, I would accept deferral (assuming closure is of the order of a two or three months), though the repayment would have to be over an extended period.

    As for evil landlords, I think you must have a chip on your shoulder, there. No more evil than Revenue, local authority, suppliers or banks. You don't have to love any of them, but we all have to deal with them, so hardly evil.


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    #12
    gluppers
    Registered Users Posts: 469 ✭✭gluppers


    Drifter50 wrote: »
    You have an extraordinary angle on this. How do you think small businesses are going to pay their day to day commitments when closed?
    They have to take a payment holiday, no ifs or buts. If the landlord has a mortgage on the other side he/she can get a 3 month break
    In respect of the opposite, it would be in the landlords best interest to have his tenant doing well and making profit so it does`nt matter


    Exactly, it's a no brainer. A lot of small business owners just don't have the means to pay the rent


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    #13
    duploelabs
    Registered Users Posts: 11,389 ✭✭✭✭duploelabs


    PickYourName wrote: »
    To answer your questions, yes, all three are making concessions.

    Banks: have increased our overdraft limit and have given a three month break on loan repayments. A deferral.

    Suppliers: all have agreed to suspend looking for payment on current amounts owed, whilst agreeing to enable new orders to be placed when the time comes. Balances owed to be scheduled at some future date.

    Employees: most (all?) have offered to do work for free. The only time we've taken them up on it is to prepare items made in our otherwise unused kitchen to drop up to staff in one of the hospitals.

    I would anticipate that at least some of the deferred amounts owed will ultimately be waived.

    By the way, apart from the employees, I don't know if any or all of the concessions is made from a sense of solidarity or just good business. The alternative is to try and recover the amounts owed right now. This is very unlikely to succeed (the cash certainly isn't sitting in a bank account someplace), would probably close us down and they'd ultinately get nothing. In the case of the landlords, they'd also be faced with trying to find a new tenant in what's likely to be a very weak market for them.

    That observation answers your question, by the way: out of a sense of national soldarity and/or good business sense is why people would expect landlords to reduce or waive rents.

    I have a small food production company supplying the trade.

    If I was approached I would have considered it. However I've had two clients who have turned around refusing to pay, citing corona issues, two weeks after I'd sent their March EOM statement. Main issue I have with this is I have already supplied the produce to my vendors, and they have resold my produce and pocketed the cash.
    Pay your bills, end of. I have, i don't see why anyone along my chain should be exempt


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    #14
    PickYourName
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭PickYourName


    duploelabs wrote: »
    Pay your bills, end of. I have, i don't see why anyone along my chain should be exempt

    I can't pay my bills: I don't have the cash.

    What I have said is that I will pay them, as soon as I am able. They have all agreed not to press us for payment until we're in a position to agree a payment schedule. I can't even do that yet, as I've no visibility on when we get get back open.

    They could force the issue and put us out of business, but if they do that they are absolutely guaranteed never to get anything: as unsecured creditors they are at the back of the queue and there's no cash to pay those at the front (Revenue, followed by secured creditors).

    As you say, it's a chain. I'm very aware the pain passes along the chain, but I don't believe the one at the end of the chain should be made to pay the price for what are exceptional conditions.


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    #15
    Drifter50
    Registered Users Posts: 617 ✭✭✭Drifter50


    duploelabs wrote: »
    I have a small food production company supplying the trade.

    If I was approached I would have considered it. However I've had two clients who have turned around refusing to pay, citing corona issues, two weeks after I'd sent their March EOM statement. Main issue I have with this is I have already supplied the produce to my vendors, and they have resold my produce and pocketed the cash.
    Pay your bills, end of. I have, i don't see why anyone along my chain should be exempt

    What do you pay your bills with ? Rhetorical question obviously

    Business has been vanishing since the lasy week in Feb and no one is paying bills. Certainly my debtors list was going up. I`m not that miserable that I`m going to hassle people at the minute

    You need to park it for now. It will probably be September before we are all working again


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    #16
    duploelabs
    Registered Users Posts: 11,389 ✭✭✭✭duploelabs


    Drifter50 wrote: »
    What do you pay your bills with ? Rhetorical question obviously

    Business has been vanishing since the lasy week in Feb and no one is paying bills. Certainly my debtors list was going up. I`m not that miserable that I`m going to hassle people at the minute

    You need to park it for now. It will probably be September before we are all working again

    From the revenue that my vendors have received from selling my products?


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    #17
    PickYourName
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭PickYourName


    duploelabs wrote: »
    From the revenue that my vendors have received from selling my products?

    Well if they're anything like us, we haven't sold anything since March 16th, so have no cash coming in

    The agreement we've reached with all suppliers:

    - existing balances put on hold for now
    - payment schedule to be agreed once we've some visibility on opening again
    - new goods can be ordered, to enable us to re-open when the time comes
    - new goods to be paid at the end of each week (we'd agree COD if needed)
    - no direct debits for now

    Utilities are a work in progress - no direct feedback as yet, but we've proposed paying a nominal amount to cover at least usage whilst we're closed (which is radically lower than when we're operating).


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    #18
    duploelabs
    Registered Users Posts: 11,389 ✭✭✭✭duploelabs


    PickYourName wrote: »
    Well if they're anything like us, we haven't sold anything since March 16th.

    The agreement we've reached with all suppliers:

    - existing balances put on hold for now
    - payment schedule to be agreed once we've some visibility on opening again
    - new goods can be ordered
    - new goods to be paid at the end of each week (we'd agree COD if needed)
    - no direct debits for now

    Utilities are a work in progress - no direct feedback as yet, but we've proposed paying a nominal amount to cover at least usage whilst we're closed 9which is radically lower than when we're operating).

    As I said before, those two clients were disputing the EOM statement I sent at the end of March, way before any business drop in the industry.


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    #19
    PickYourName
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭PickYourName


    duploelabs wrote: »
    As I said before, those two clients were disputing the EOM statement I sent at the end of March, way before any business drop in the industry.

    I can't speak for anyone else. For all I know, they could be in the same position as us, or they could just be taking the pi**.


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