HSE taking over private hospital

listermint

Beasty wrote: »

I think it's something in the order of €3bn+ a year. Remove those direct contributions by individuals and employers and the whole taxpayer population has to stump it up. If not many of the specialists will relocate to a place where they can earn more than they can get in the public sector over here. Hence the better off end up even better off (by not paying directly for their healthcare) and the worse off pay more in taxes

Economically it would be a disaster

Yep you always here that stuff.


Specialists will relocate elsewhere. There's never examples of this though.....


You got any?


The good bankers will go elsewhere


The best doctors will go elsewhere.


Yada yada

tjhook

listermint wrote: »

Yep you always here that stuff.


Specialists will relocate elsewhere. There's never examples of this though.....


You got any?


The good bankers will go elsewhere


The best doctors will go elsewhere.


Yada yada

Nurses? Conditions got worse, and a load of them left. I see no reason others wouldn't do the same.

Atlantic Dawn

Those waiting on trolleys in public hospitals have gone from 600 a few weeks ago down to a handful. It's clear majority of these are chancers who don't need to go hospital at all, no sign of them when there's a whiff of Corona in the air. Public system shouldn't facilitate them, they need to see a GP at most.

Harry Palmr

Harry Palmr wrote: »

This is the pretext for a socialist land grab.

/conspiracy or constipation?

Reminds me of an article and quote I read last week...

Everyone's a socialist during a pandemic

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/11/opinion/coronavirus-socialism.html


Although, from my limited knowledge, by the Marxist definition Socialism is an economic state of transition and not the nightmare fuel for conservative types and capitalists which it can be believed to be.

Socialism, I could take pieces of that and certainly as an Irish citizen enjoy many elements of it already. I really think that 'Socialism/Socialist' gets a bad rep and doesn't deserve its curse word reputation or status. It's Communism I would be extremely wary of, but tbh we just wouldn't be able to implement it here for many reasons, and unless our EU lizard overlords sweep in with it in the future it's not really an immediate concern for me.

Good to see everyone pulling together at this moment of need, public and private, but I imagine the private hospitals will be back doing their own thing after the pandemic. However, many things will likely be different or change as a result of the pandemic, and you might see some positives and lessons learned for our health services. If they work together for this and unprecedented lines of communication and workflow are opened, maybe they can do it again in future.

But...

Now we're back to the pretext for a Socialist land grab :eek: :pac:

crazy maisie

Just out of curiosity. How many private hospitals are there for them to use? Is there a figure on it?

is_that_so

crazy maisie wrote: »

Just out of curiosity. How many private hospitals are there for them to use? Is there a figure on it?

Here's a link on it, although just with bed numbers.

https://www.thejournal.ie/private-hospitals-ireland-coronavirus-5056334-Mar2020/

Beasty

listermint wrote: »

Yep you always here that stuff.


Specialists will relocate elsewhere. There's never examples of this though.....


You got any?


The good bankers will go elsewhere


The best doctors will go elsewhere.


Yada yada

I would happily relocate elsewhere if my taxes went up significantly. I have contributed massive amounts to government income since I came over here 13 years ago. I could relocate tomorrow if I really wanted to, as I already have living accommodation available elsewhere

If you take away the private income of surgeons many would, and indeed I'm sure many would not relocate. Regardless though, you do understand that the public sector needs much more money without private patients paying directly, and this could only come in the form of increased taxation?

Sky King

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Why can't they do this anyway??

Why ??

So some guy comes along with his own money and establishes a private business, and the state just takes it off him?

mountai

Having experienced treatment under both public and private systems , I would submit the following for consideration . Without a doubt , I found the private system far more efficient at every level , why ? . The private system is run as a business , where costs are closely monitored , union demarcation doesnt exist , facilities are far superior and cleanliness is way better . The private sector is not weighed down with needless layers of management , both middle and particularly top line . I would hope that because of this temporary new merging , that the public system would benefit , but fear that the private system will be dragged down because if the HSE get their claws into things , we better watch out .

Geuze

crazy maisie wrote: »

Just out of curiosity. How many private hospitals are there for them to use? Is there a figure on it?

There are 18 that are members of the PHA.

http://privatehospitals.ie/

Skyrimaddict

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

It's the idea, but not a reality.

Reality is lots of workers from HSE would transfer over, it's not like private hospital recruitment starts in second level and pays for this training. It's all tax payer money

Perhaps, but which taxpayer?

The last three doctors I had at the Galway Clinic weren't Irish, and their qualifications were obtained abroad. People here seem to think all the doctors in the private sector are Irish trained... they're not. Especially when it comes to specialists, often they've studied abroad at their own expense.

I can't imagine many posters here would be complaining about a doctor trained in Germany but works in Ireland...

Skyrimaddict

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Perhaps, but which taxpayer?

The last three doctors I had at the Galway Clinic weren't Irish, and their qualifications were obtained abroad. People here seem to think all the doctors in the private sector are Irish trained... they're not. Especially when it comes to specialists, often they've studied abroad at their own expense.

I can't imagine many posters here would be complaining about a doctor trained in Germany but works in Ireland...

And my earlier post mentioned this, that we have numbers who come from overseas, but work both public and private.
I'm lucky I can afford a good Private package, but recently bring able to pay directly meant I was seen in weeks.
I don't think that's fair, simple.

kenmm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

How? You'll have a lot more to pay on your PRSI in a single tier system..

But presumably a lot less in premiums once you do away with the admin costs and that pesky profit that companies need..

IAMAMORON

kenmm wrote: »

But presumably a lot less in premiums once you do away with the admin costs and that pesky profit that companies need..

The main problem with nationalising a healthcare system is that you tunnel treatments into one vacuum. I have cousins in the north who have received different drug treatments and cancer drugs to family in the south because the NHS is supplied differently. This matters.

The concept that a nationalised system would eradicate health insurance profits is garbage. The treatments won't get any cheaper. If anything having a privatised health system allows patients in the south to get better treatments. Under the NHS the drug companies plamás procurement officers who are essentially civil servants on rubbish wages. Corruption is rife.

The current system we have actually gives citizens more choice. You can spend big money if you like or you can opt to have no health insurance at all. But everyone still has options, whether you are rich poor or otherwise.

Having a private system allows for better healthcare. People will work harder and give a better service for a profit. As a potential patient if I need treatment I want it done by someone who is working for me, not for a government.

Mad_maxx

rock22 wrote: »

Absolutely not. There is huge inefficiencies and financial transfers from the public to the private system. I have worked in the health service for close to 40 years and can say , without hesitation, that out two tier system is the worst of both worlds.

for patients ( and tax payers ) it is

for consultants , its like having your bread buttered on both sides

Atlantic Dawn

Is there a point in having private health insurance now if the service you will receive in a private hospital will be limited?

Mad_maxx

Deleted User wrote: »

Perhaps, but which taxpayer?

The last three doctors I had at the Galway Clinic weren't Irish, and their qualifications were obtained abroad. People here seem to think all the doctors in the private sector are Irish trained... they're not. Especially when it comes to specialists, often they've studied abroad at their own expense.

I can't imagine many posters here would be complaining about a doctor trained in Germany but works in Ireland...

having met a few of the non irish doctors in the Galway Clinic ,id be sceptical of how much actual medical training they had in their country of origin

kippy

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Those waiting on trolleys in public hospitals have gone from 600 a few weeks ago down to a handful. It's clear majority of these are chancers who don't need to go hospital at all, no sign of them when there's a whiff of Corona in the air. Public system shouldn't facilitate them, they need to see a GP at most.

Without a lot of research it is very difficult to back up at assertion. And I have no doubt s lot of research will be done on it however I would suggest that the significant drop in numbers is a combination of social distancing which has a direct impact on:
Lack of pubs and clubs/alcohol related issues.
Lack of sporting events/training.
Less people in the workplace/travelling.
Less risky behaviour in general.

IAMAMORON

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Is there a point in having private health insurance now if the service you will receive in a private hospital will be limited?

It is a very valid point. But these are unforeseen circumstances. Everyone needs to be treated where possible.

No doctor is going to mistreat you based on your healthcare plan either. They get paid the same if you have a plan or don't.

Skyrimaddict

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

And my earlier post mentioned this, that we have numbers who come from overseas, but work both public and private.
I'm lucky I can afford a good Private package, but recently bring able to pay directly meant I was seen in weeks.
I don't think that's fair, simple.

It is what it is. We live in a money driven society. Those who pay get extra benefits. Those who don't pay extra, get the standard care.

I've been paying private health insurance all my adult life. I've never needed it. Never been seriously sick or needed any operations. My visits are due to my shaking disorder, which aren't covered under the private or public health coverage, so I pay extra for that.

The point is that I could cry about the waste of money, or simply accept that I've been paying all this time so that when I do need it, I'll get what I need fairly quickly. I've paid quite a lot of money over the last 25 years so that I will be seen quickly. And the specialists I need generally aren't in Public care, except as consultants, so I'd be paying through the nose anyway.

Personally it's not terribly fair for anyone, myself included... because life, well, isn't terribly fair.

Mad_maxx

Mad_maxx wrote: »

having met a few of the non irish doctors in the Galway Clinic ,id be sceptical of how much actual medical training they had in their country of origin

I'm wondering if you met them in a professional capacity, because I've always been happy with the standard of care from there. My parents love their doctors, as does my sister. So.. no.. not buying it. Damn good hospital with very professional staff.

kenmm

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Is there a point in having private health insurance now if the service you will receive in a private hospital will be limited?

The point is that public health is being catered for. This is not the time to be worried about some of your premiums going elsewhere (They normally do anyway - to profit rather than your own healthcare).

By public healthcare I mean the care for the health of all of us. Not the mass provision of healthcare for individual members of the public.

No system in the world can be prepared enough for what we may see in the coming weeks and to be honest I find comments like this particularly distasteful.

kenmm

Deleted User wrote: »

It is what it is. We live in a money driven society.

My hope for life after these next few months that maybe this will change. It will be up to each of us to change attitudes around us.

tjhook

kenmm wrote: »

No system in the world can be prepared enough for what we may see in the coming weeks and to be honest I find comments like this particularly distasteful.

The poster is balancing the cost, which may be hundreds of euros per month, against the benefit. (S)he may have the option to cancel the policy, or just not renew. I think it's fair enough for them to look into the situation. We don't know what the poster's financial/employment position is now.

kenmm

IAMAMORON wrote: »

The main problem with nationalising a healthcare system is that you tunnel treatments into one vacuum. I have cousins in the north who have received different drug treatments and cancer drugs to family in the south because the NHS is supplied differently. This matters.

The concept that a nationalised system would eradicate health insurance profits is garbage. The treatments won't get any cheaper. If anything having a privatised health system allows patients in the south to get better treatments. Under the NHS the drug companies plamás procurement officers who are essentially civil servants on rubbish wages. Corruption is rife.

Just because the NHS is part of a global system of healthcare that is massively profit driven, doesn't mean to say it (or other public health systems) are a bad idea. The current state of the NHS is dire as a result of years of under-funding (its particularly ironic that the UK PM is using slogans around protecting the NHS when no one has done more to systematically destroy it over the years.. but I digress..).

The Irish public health is bad, doesn't need to be that way and the alternative doesn't need to be private health.

IAMAMORON wrote: »

The current system we have actually gives citizens more choice. You can spend big money if you like or you can opt to have no health insurance at all. But everyone still has options, whether you are rich poor or otherwise.

It give you choice, if you are not poor. If you are poor - you don't really have a choice now do you? Because health insurance premiums are a luxury for many.

kenmm

tjhook wrote: »

The poster is balancing the cost, which may be hundreds of euros per month, against the benefit. (S)he may have the option to cancel the policy, or just not renew. I think it's fair enough for them to look into the situation. We don't know what the poster's financial/employment position is now.

Fair enough, I didn't consider it that way and mean no offence. I wont edit my post, but I will apologise.

Beanybabog

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Is there a point in having private health insurance now if the service you will receive in a private hospital will be limited?

I assume if people cancelled their plans for this period they lose some benefits- there’s waiting periods for eligibility, so you can’t just take out insurance and claim the next day for some things. So if you move from one insurer to another it’s still continuity of insurance, but if you have a 13 week gap you reset the clock. I know maternity benefits are 52 weeks

PhilOssophy

kenmm wrote: »

But presumably a lot less in premiums once you do away with the admin costs and that pesky profit that companies need..

I doubt it, the admin costs in the HSE will absolutely sky rocket if we took over the private hospitals. As well as the pensions, etc costs.

Leg End Reject

Leg End Reject wrote: »

Count yourself lucky if you can still afford your health insurance,

luck has a lot less to do with this type of thing than many people seem to think, ive observed

kenmm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I doubt it, the admin costs in the HSE will absolutely sky rocket if we took over the private hospitals. As well as the pensions, etc costs.

Possibly, If the system were as it is now, but I think what will emerge is a need to build a better system. Can't be done overnight, and can't be done if people aren't willing.. and no idea what it would look like!