CoVid19 Part XI - 2,615 in ROI (46 deaths) 410 in NI (21 deaths)(29/03)*OP upd 28/03*

ACitizenErased

awec wrote: »

So the number of people currently in ICU could be a good bit lower than that figure.

Chances are that all the deaths have been in ICU.

splinter65

Raconteuse wrote: »

How can people continue to ignore the begging for social distancing, to insist it's an over reaction and to blather on about how it's making it worse (they're right ya see, not the WHO) and to shoe-horn in their own political agendas?

I went to the chemist this afternoon. Our town Thurles was bright and dry but very cold. Normally on a Saturday at 4.30 it’s very busy and bustling. There were lots and lots of walkers out, both individuals and “couples”. I encountered a mother and a granny with 2 kids walking two dogs but they were the only ones not observing the rules. Apart from that it is a ghost town.

Duke of Url

awec wrote: »

So the number of people currently in ICU could be a good bit lower than that figure.

Yeas. The ways it’s presented will cause panic.

An Ciarraioch

awec wrote: »

So the number of people currently in ICU could be a good bit lower than that figure.

True, but isn't much comfort if they're only freed up due to deaths.

ihdxwz4a3pem9j

The complete restrictions, in my humble opinion, came at the right time. We have only a finite number of Gardaí. We rely on each other to self-govern. The Gardaí are by no means omnipresent. In order to get people to self-govern, there needs to be a sufficient buy-in from the citizens of Ireland. Otherwise, the whole intervention falls flat on its face. Fear incites people to buy-in. Even up until late afternoon on Boards, there were people berating the social restrictions. Could you imagine how defiant people would have been if they tried to completely restrict earlier than they did? And with regard to nursing homes, people would have cited inhumanity at the inability to visit loved-ones. People would have thought that the government was overreacting. They would have found ways to flout the rules. And inevitably as people started to fall sick with CoVID (inevitable, as people will always break rules), people would have dismissed the restrictions as ineffectual.

Kerry25x

expectationlost wrote: »

but you have to reckon most of the deaths occurred in ICU beds so its a lot more new people needing ICU

Judging from the median age and speculation that many were nursing home patients then many might not have been in ICU beds, depends on what their ceiling of care was.

New Home

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Tough choices are made every day in hospitals around the country well before this CV outbreak. In a lot of cases if the patient has little quality of life at admission, and treatment will not improve that, the patient will be sedated, be under palliative care and will slip away. I know this for a fact, you can choose whether to believe me or not.

Also nursing homes ask Next of Kin (where resident is not compos mentis) whether family would like resident to be moved to hospital for treatment or to be resuscitated etc. in the event of serious illness a DNR if you like. I know this too.

That was my mother, god rest her. She had a very peaceful passing at a great age with no beeping interventions and tubes and the like. Bless her, and all those that have passed during this outbreak. You can be assured that they will not have been in distress.

Plenty of younger people involved in car accidents and other traumas are also removed from Life support i.e. ventilators too. It is no way genocide, it is the right thing to do in a lot of cases, and has been going on since ventilators were invented.

It is genocide. This is not a matter of deciding what's better for the individual, this is being done due to lack of resources and due to the health services being overwhelmed. I know perfectly well that choices have been made before now, but only during war times, or times of epidemics (and not in Western Europe in recent times) have resources being removed from one patient who might (might, not will) to be given to another who might (might, not will) have a better chance of survival. I'm not talking about palliative care here. You wouldn't see all those doctors and nurses in tears over this, if this had been routine (and I'm not saying they're not sad when somebody dies in normal circumstances).

ifElseThen

smallfryy wrote: »

So what happens? They're not helped breathe? Do we not even try save them?

Morphine pain management and sedation most likely.

893bet

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Your grammar is atrocious. You could have said

" Getting away from us now. Predictable given our one step behind the virus policies over the last month. "

or

"Getting away from them now. Predictable given their one step etc etc"

I respect that you have been hell bent on stirring up shight on this forum. But at least get it right.

Whose side are you actually on. Ours or theirs? Simple question.

RIP to all victims.

User name checks out

Macdarack

425 covid 19 patients here are health workers, that's frightening.

Widdensushi

cameramonkey wrote: »

Agreed , deaths and ICU numbers are a better judge of overall rates I would think as we really quantify them. The numbers of people testing positive are not a good indicator.

but the virus getting in to nursing homes skews both those figures

boardise

Deleted User wrote: »

Are they in their own garden?

Are they busy vecting/vectoring away ?

josip

ACitizenErased wrote: »

Chances are that all the deaths have been in ICU.

Perhaps not all in ICU.

Chief medical officer Dr Tony Holohan said most died in institutional settings such as hospitals or nursing homes.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/coronavirus-most-deaths-have-been-in-settings-such-as-hospitals-and-nursing-homes-1.4213354

TheValeyard

1540 viewing these threads......wow, just wow......

fjon

Marlow wrote: »

Updated list on essential services can be found here:

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/dfeb8f-list-of-essential-service-providers-under-new-public-health-guidelin/

/M

Good to get a proper list. Strange that childcare doesn't seem to be included? I would have thought that that would be essential for front line workers with kids?

niallo27

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

True, but isn't much comfort if they're only freed up due to deaths.

Well if your waiting for one, I dont think you would care either way as harsh as it sounds.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya!

brendanwalsh wrote: »

Most of these new death spikes are because it has infiltrated nursing homes, and when these patients present to hospital they are not offered ICU care or ventilators.

The ICU admission criteria for Ireland is very strict unlike other parts of the world.

Unfortunately they already draw an arbitrary line across people with co-morbidities, this will be further accentuated now due to ventilator supply being very low.

What does this mean exactly?

So if someone has diabetes etc or some other chronic health condition, they're not offered ICU care when they get this thing?

Or are you referring specifically to elderly people in nursing homes?

CIARAN_BOYLE

Inquitus wrote: »

The vaccine only works against bacterial pneumonia, not viral pneumonia, and certainly not COVID-19 related pneumonia.

The suggestion was that secondary infection with bacterial pneumonia is a killer for covid 19.

It's the same reason why some of the trials feature antibacterial drugs combined with antibiotics.

froog

has it actually been confirmed the two daily spikes here were due to nursing home outbreaks? seems to be a lot of assumption going on here.

Professor Moriarty

New Home wrote: »

It is genocide. This is not a matter of deciding what's better for the individual, this is being done due to lack of resources and due to the health services being overwhelmed. I know perfectly well that choices have been made before now, but only during war times, or times of epidemics (and not in Western Europe in recent times) have resources being removed from one patient who might (might, not will) to be given to another who might (might, not will) have a better chance of survival. I'm not talking about palliative care here. You wouldn't see all those doctors and nurses in tears over this, if this had been routine (and I'm not saying they're not sad when somebody dies in normal circumstances).

It's many things but it's not genocide. It's triage due to an unexpected pandemic, unprepared health services and sometimes poor political decision making.

awec

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

True, but isn't much comfort if they're only freed up due to deaths.

It means unfortunately the same people are being counted twice if the ICU number is cumulative.

New Home

New Home wrote: »

It is genocide. This is not a matter of deciding what's better for the individual, this is being done due to lack of resources and due to the health services being overwhelmed. I know perfectly well that choices have been made before now, but only during war times, or times of epidemics (and not in Western Europe in recent times) have resources being removed from one patient who might (might, not will) to be given to another who might (might, not will) have a better chance of survival. I'm not talking about palliative care here. You wouldn't see all those doctors and nurses in tears over this, if this had been routine (and I'm not saying they're not sad when somebody dies in normal circumstances).

Great. So not only are the front line workers having to put up with a high chance of catching the virus, now they will look forward to a trial in the Hague when it's all over.

Kerry25x

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

What does this mean exactly?

So if someone has diabetes etc or some other chronic health condition, they're not offered ICU care when they get this thing?

Or are you referring specifically to elderly people in nursing homes?

It is case by case, the consultant will assess the patient and decide the ceiling of care and resussitation status depending on what he or she believes is best for that patient.

Really they are predicting outcomes and looking at quality of life instead of prolonging the suffering of someone who has a low chance of recovery.

I'm just referring to normal circumstances, not specific to Covid19.

fritzelly

awec wrote: »

So the number of people currently in ICU could be a good bit lower than that figure.

That answer is still ambiguous, what if all the deaths were never in ICU
No point giving a cumulative figure - means nothing, just say how many are in ICU now

speckle

is_that_so wrote: »

A 2km from home calculator.

https://2kmfromhome.com/

privacy alert needs geo location information from your mobile.
but if you dont mind that, handy or just take out a paper map of your area,old school like!

Spanish Eyes

New Home wrote: »

It is genocide. This is not a matter of deciding what's better for the individual, this is being done due to lack of resources and due to the health services being overwhelmed. I know perfectly well that choices have been made before now, but only during war times, or times of epidemics (and not in Western Europe in recent times) have resources being removed from one patient who might (might, not will) to be given to another who might (might, not will) have a better chance of survival. I'm not talking about palliative care here. You wouldn't see all those doctors and nurses in tears over this, if this had been routine (and I'm not saying they're not sad when somebody dies in normal circumstances).

Similar choices have been made in every country where the virus is rampant. No country has a ventilator for each and every citizen. Never will.

My point was that such choices are not new at all, they have been going on forever.

nimrod86

Anyone want to take a go at explaining to me how manufacturing of semiconductors is an essential service? Please? Anyone? I work in that industry and cannot understand it myself... Almost feel sick reading it, and the thought that my co-workers are still being expected to go in.

Nermal

New Home wrote: »

It is genocide... I know perfectly well that choices have been made before now, but only during war times, or times of epidemics (and not in Western Europe in recent times) have resources being removed from one patient who might (might, not will) to be given to another who might (might, not will) have a better chance of survival.

Resources are always limited in healthcare, and have to be allocated where they will bring the most benefit. When NICE don’t approve an expensive drug in the UK, is that genocide?

skellig_rocks

FVP3 wrote: »

I am reading a history of China right now. Not really getting that. Insular yes, feeling superior to the rest of the world, yes but in the sense of not really caring to find out. Japan had that until the mid 19th C.

All cultures have some of that. It beats invading everywhere to impose capitalism christianity democracy.

Their society was hierarchical but not more so, and often more meritocratic than, the West. They've had an imperial exam system for 1000 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination

Confucianism is a system of government which, while accepting the hierarchy of the elites over the poor ( like everywhere), also depends sacrifice from the rich. Western oligarchies could learn from that.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Few8kJ0zfnY

Racism in a Chinese laundry detergent advertisement

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-36394917

TheValeyard

TheValeyard wrote: »

1540 viewing these threads......wow, just wow......

So what? You get that on any Kermit snow thread on the weather forum.

ihdxwz4a3pem9j

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

What does this mean exactly?

So if someone has diabetes etc or some other chronic health condition, they're not offered ICU care when they get this thing?

Or are you referring specifically to elderly people in nursing homes?

This is not true. Each potential ICU candidate will be assessed by a senior ICU doctor. A lot of factors will be considered (e.g. the present illness, any unrelated severe medical conditions, a person's baseline level of functioning, the patient's wishes, etc). The doctor will assess if (s)he thinks that the patient will benefit from the intervention/if the disease-course can be changed. Every patient is considered as an individual. There are no current hard-and-fast rules.

Ireland does not have particularly stringent ICU admission criteria. Doctors use their many years of training (in Ireland, at least 8, to become a senior ICU doctor), to determine the best course of action for that patient. A doctor would not give a patient a medication that (s)he thought wasn't going to work. Similarly, ICU intervention is given to those who will likely receive benefit from it.

Hobgoblin11

nimrod86 wrote: »

Anyone want to take a go at explaining to me how manufacturing of semiconductors is an essential service? Please? Anyone? I work in that industry and cannot understand it myself... Almost feel sick reading it, and the thought that my co-workers are still being expected to go in.

We need to be able to conduct semis, it’s essential

is_that_so

froog wrote: »

has it actually been confirmed the two daily spikes here were due to nursing home outbreaks? seems to be a lot of assumption going on here.

They explicitly mentioned nursing homes as an area of concern two days running.

jarvis

splinter65 wrote: »

I went to the chemist this afternoon. Our town Thurles was bright and dry but very cold. Normally on a Saturday at 4.30 it’s very busy and bustling. There were lots and lots of walkers out, both individuals and “couples”. I encountered a mother and a granny with 2 kids walking two dogs but they were the only ones not observing the rules. Apart from that it is a ghost town.

Why were the mother, grandmother, 2 kids and dogs considered to be rule breaking?

If they’re the one household then they’re allowed, no? I have two kids and my wife and I will probably go for a walk with them which is fine as far as I know.

Mervyn Skidmore

Marlow wrote: »

Updated list on essential services can be found here:

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/dfeb8f-list-of-essential-service-providers-under-new-public-health-guidelin/

/M

I don't see the Courts on this list. It says "emergency call answering service to ensure administration of justice". Not sure how they can close the courts. There'd be people in custody, childcare orders, domestic violence orders etc.

spookwoman

https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1243976016755863553?s=20

Gretas Gonna Get Ya!

Elle Tasty Gymnasium wrote: »

The complete restrictions, in my humble opinion, came at the right time. We have only a finite number of Gardaí. We rely on each other to self-govern. The Gardaí are by no means omnipresent. In order to get people to self-govern, there needs to be a sufficient buy-in from the citizens of Ireland. Otherwise, the whole intervention falls flat on its face. Fear incites people to buy-in. Even up until late afternoon on Boards, there were people berating the social restrictions. Could you imagine how defiant people would have been if they tried to completely restrict earlier than they did? And with regard to nursing homes, people would have cited inhumanity at the inability to visit loved-ones. People would have thought that the government was overreacting. They would have found ways to flout the rules. And inevitably as people started to fall sick with CoVID (inevitable, as people will always break rules), people would have dismissed the restrictions as ineffectual.

There's no doubt in my mind, they should have locked down earlier...

3 weeks ago, they weren't even sure if they should cancel paddy's day! This was a big indicator to me (and others) that they didn't really fully grasp the seriousness of what was happening elsewhere in Europe!

But there is no point in dwelling on the past. Hopefully they grasp how bad things are now, and we still might have a chance of not turning into the next Italy or Spain...

It all really depends how well we all play our part throughout the country. We've all got to play a blinder now, collectively as a nation. I am confident that we can do it - I see lots of people making a real genuine effort.

Nonoperational

There seems to be a lot of commentary here about ICU etc.

A nursing home patient over 80 would rarely get admitted to ICU before this. Some of this is the patients own wishes, some is avoiding futile treatment. Ventilating older frail patients rarely ends up with a good results.

igCorcaigh

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It's many things but it's not genocide. It's triage due to an unexpected pandemic, unprepared health services and sometimes poor political decision making.

We knew a pandemic was due. I wouldn't say it was unexpected.

New Home

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It's many things but it's not genocide. It's triage due to an unexpected pandemic, unprepared health services and sometimes poor political decision making.

Triage gets into play before you get a bed into ICU, not after.

Deleted User wrote: »

Great. So not only are the front line workers having to put up with a high chance of catching the virus, now they will look forward to a trial in the Hague when it's all over.

Give this person a strawman!

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Similar choices have been made in every country where the virus is rampant. No country has a ventilator for each and every citizen. Never will.

My point was that such choices are not new at all, they have been going on forever.

Choices on this scale are new. And so far we haven't needed a ventilator for each and every citizen, but for the most part whoever needed one got it.

Look, I'm not saying that they set out with the intention of letting every old or sick person die, but that's the end result of what's been happening for the most part. Old or frail people may not be a nation, but they are a class of people, and they're being culled because of the circumstances.

Professor Moriarty

igCorcaigh wrote: »

We knew a pandemic was due. I wouldn't say it was unexpected.

When did we know that? Didn't hear anyone talking about it until January.

Hobgoblin11

Hobgoblin11 wrote: »

We need to be able to conduct semis, it’s essential

A semi is about all I've been able to conduct lately. I blame the stress.

Roger_007

Deleted User wrote: »

Great. So not only are the front line workers having to put up with a high chance of catching the virus, now they will look forward to a trial in the Hague when it's all over.

I now believe that one of the symptoms of NOT having the virus must be that you lose all sense of reason when discussing it.

niallo27

nimrod86 wrote: »

Anyone want to take a go at explaining to me how manufacturing of semiconductors is an essential service? Please? Anyone? I work in that industry and cannot understand it myself... Almost feel sick reading it, and the thought that my co-workers are still being expected to go in.

Well they are used in medical equipment worldwide, this may be a factor in the next year or so.

yourdeadwright

Have we got today's numbers yet

893bet

froog wrote: »

has it actually been confirmed the two daily spikes here were due to nursing home outbreaks? seems to be a lot of assumption going on here.

This. Why would they all die the same day.

New Home

Nonoperational wrote: »

There seems to be a lot of commentary here about ICU etc.

A nursing home patient over 80 would rarely get admitted to ICU before this. Some of this is the patients own wishes, some is avoiding futile treatment. Ventilating older frail patients rarely ends up with a good results.

The difference is that now Over 65s aren't being treated. There's a damn big difference between someone who's 65 and someone who's 85 or 95.

Nermal

nimrod86 wrote: »

Anyone want to take a go at explaining to me how manufacturing of semiconductors is an essential service? Please? Anyone? I work in that industry and cannot understand it myself... Almost feel sick reading it, and the thought that my co-workers are still being expected to go in.

Your industry can keep dust out of a room. You should be able to manage not to be a source of many further infections.

cameramonkey

Widdensushi wrote: »

but the virus getting in to nursing homes skews both those figures

We dont really know if it skews ICU numbers because we don't know if the nursing home patients made it that far.


I suppose all the numbers are skewed .



We dont know how many people have the virus because testing is not enough and then we had the fiasco with the system here. Do we even know how many test have been carried out and then processed?



We don't know how many are in ICU because it seem they don't put the numbers that are actually there at the moment, they add up all that have needed ICU treatment at say that is the number. Some people must have left ICU through improvement or death. So their figure is meaningless in many ways.


I think the HSE are being deliberately vague on some issues. They seem to answer questions about testing or equipment shortages with answers that are about what they will hope will be the situation in a day or week.


I would like to know, how many ICU beds have we? How many test are being carried out and processed a day? How many test have been carried out? It does not seem that difficult answers those questions.

Roger_007

Roger_007 wrote: »

I now believe that one of the symptoms of NOT having the virus must be that you lose all sense of reason when discussing it.

A little bit of irony, James. Let's not let the stiff upper lip tremble.