CoVid19 Part XI - 2,615 in ROI (46 deaths) 410 in NI (21 deaths)(29/03)*OP upd 28/03*

all about the mane

Lavinia wrote: »

I can read the WHO website,



but if you - as some know-it-all here - are basing your ''opinion'' on premises that all people are morons (their words not mine) then we obviously have nothing to talk about


in other words - masks are effective if handled properly

You may be able to read it but it seems you don't understand it. It says only people caring for a suspect/confirmed covid19 person should wear them. Do you see that?

where did I call anyone a moron?

igCorcaigh

Spain with 838 new deaths

Bob24

jackboy wrote: »

If there was a plentiful supply of masks available the HSE would be recommending the public to always wear them outside the home. Don’t believe the lies that they are not effective.

Definitely, and if this situation lasts for too long I suspect supply will increase and Western government will start changing tune.

The same people who are now saying masks are useless won’t admit they were incorrect through, they will find reasons to say the situation has changed and they have now became useful ;-) (they might claim that the public which before was too dumb to use masks properly has now magically became experts in wearing them)

Kerry25x

Coyote wrote: »

A total of 11 million masks, one million face shields and one million goggles for workers are on order.

https://www.thejournal.ie/hse-coronavirus-tests-5054225-Mar2020/

this brings up an intresting questions what are they going to use 11 million mask for, can't be for the HSE can it?
send them out to every house in Ireland?

Coyote

From looking at videos in other countries it looks like all covid patients are housed on wards together and staff can put on their PPE and leave it on. It's not like that here, not yet at least.

We have single rooms with covid positive patients on wards that also keep general patients. So we can't just walk up the corridor in all our PPE, everything needs to come off and be disposed of when we leave that patients room.

Also, all the suspected cases, of which there is more than confirmed cases, need masks worn when attending to them. So, we do need a lot of masks.

YFlyer

Why were passenger planes used and not cargo to pick up medical supplies?

paul71

Deleted User wrote: »

Because people like to cherry pick figures, which suit their arguments, rather than put forward a balanced and well investigated argument.



That would take effort and may not agree with their mindset.


Now, do I think our health service is underfunded? yes
Do I think that most of that underfunding is caused by administrative black holes? yes


Is all of my opinion from anecdotal evidence? Very much yes, but at least I can see/admit this.


Do I think that the HSE needs a proper audit, with appropriate powers of investigation, with a guaranteed action based on results? Yes


Will this ever happen? No, seen as political suicide.

I cherry picked nothing in fact I did the exact opposite I practically ignored the 160 odd countries below us. You just choose to ignore simple facts because it does not suit you.

Padre_Pio

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Wash your hands before putting it on.
Wash your hands after disposing of it.

Change your mask regularly.
Never touch it, otherwise you need to change it.

People aren't doing this.

You completely forgot to mention that men must shave first.
Washing your hands before taking it off.
You've not discussed safe disposal.


While you are out and about and you touch the mask (and you will), how do you propose changing it and washing hands immediately?




They are made for use in controlled environments, with ample access to facilities (changing, cleaning, training). Joe Public has none of these for a trip to the shops

all about the mane

Coyote wrote: »

A total of 11 million masks, one million face shields and one million goggles for workers are on order.

https://www.thejournal.ie/hse-coronavirus-tests-5054225-Mar2020/

this brings up an intresting questions what are they going to use 11 million mask for, can't be for the HSE can it?
send them out to every house in Ireland?

Coyote

yes, the masks are for the HSE. not the public

Ficheall

Roger_007 wrote: »

The guy I was listening has analysed the actual data which he has access to. The rest of us are just listening to anecdotal evidence and jumping to conclusions.

The "boffin" you were listening to, whom you can't name has access to the "actual data".
This sounds pretty damn anecdotal to me.

paul71

paul71 wrote: »

I cherry picked nothing in fact I did the exact opposite I practically ignored the 160 odd countries below us. You just choose to ignore simple facts because it does not suit you.

No, I asked you why you chose a country with 14 times our population and you got tetchy.


I even said that doing a more like for like comparison would help your argument (it does).
You seem to not understand why procurement costs would affect the figures drastically.

And that is just the equipment, medicines, capital issues faced by the HSE due to our geographical isolation to population issue

caveat emptor

all about the mane wrote: »

Seriously. Quoting some bullsh1t twitter account. Drawing the conclusion that the graph you have up is laughable.

Really? You are clearly more sophisticated than most. My apologies. Here's a literature review. Let me know what you think. You do know what that is right?

Lavinia

all about the mane wrote: »

where did I call anyone a moron?

i didn't say you did, but some of those who are defending that opinion

eg. like this one below

Deleted User wrote: »

No, they are not. They are effective in clinical setting at preventing aerosol particles.


Morons touching their masks, mouth, nose, surfaces etc will mean masks are less then useless. They become dangerous in giving said morons a false sense of security.

depending on what you do and how you do it >> mask can be helpful
calling other people 'morons' >> not helpful.

YFlyer

Kerry25x wrote: »

From looking at videos in other countries it looks like all covid patients are housed on wards together and staff can put on their PPE and leave it on. It's not like that here, not yet at least.

We have single rooms with covid positive patients on wards that also keep general patients. So we can't just walk up the corridor in all our PPE, everything needs to come off and be disposed of when we leave that patients room.

Also, all the suspected cases, of which there is more than confirmed cases, need masks worn when attending to them. So, we do need a lot of masks.

Where are they mixing general patients with covid positive patients?

Kerry25x

YFlyer wrote: »

Where are they mixing general patients with covid positive patients?

They are not mixed, they're in isolation rooms.

all about the mane

Lavinia wrote: »

i didn't say you did, but some of those who are defending that opinion

eg. like this one below






depending on what you do and how you do it >> mask can be helpful
calling other people 'morons' >> not helpful.

The effect of a mask is negligible.

paul71

paul71 wrote: »

They do stack up to countries of similar, in fact they exceed them, seriously did you not read what you quoted?

Did I say that they did not? I said that it was stupid to compare us to Germany, when there were much better analogues.



Again, you're welcome

caveat emptor

Deleted User wrote: »

You completely forgot to mention that men must shave first.
Washing your hands before taking it off.
You've not discussed safe disposal.


While you are out and about and you touch the mask (and you will), how do you propose changing it and washing hands immediately?




They are made for use in controlled environments, with ample access to facilities (changing, cleaning, training). Joe Public has none of these for a trip to the shops

Men should shave anyway. I only grow a beard when I'm lazy :cool:

caveat emptor

caveat emptor wrote: »

Men should shave anyway. I only grow a beard when I'm lazy :cool:

That is your personal choice. Many like beards and stubble, I've seen people wearing masks over facial hair, makes them useless.

caveat emptor

Lavinia wrote: »

I can read the WHO website,



but if you - as some know-it-all here - are basing your ''opinion'' on premises that all people are morons (their words not mine) then we obviously have nothing to talk about


in other words - masks are effective if handled properly

This goes against our guidelines. The gestapo will be around shortly.

Akrasia

Bob24 wrote: »

The Korean professor’s interview a few pages back agrees with what a few of us have been saying. Western governments and the WHO are saying mask shouldn’t be worn by the general public because they know they are in short supply and thus should be reserved for medical staff. It actually makes sense as medical staff is very exposed and if they become ill and can’t work it will exacerbate the over saturation of or health systems.

But at the end of the day their wording is bending the truth. The reality isn’t that masks are useless for the general public, but rather that with the limited supply we have we should reserve them for the most critical uses. So essentially as a policy it makes sense to reserve masks for medical staff, but the way Western government and the WHO word that policy it is just a manner for our governments to sugarcoat their lack of planning and our inability in the west to provide masks in sufficient quantities (as opposed to many Asian countries).

Masks are useless at protecting yourself from the virus in a community setting, they can help prevent it from spreading if sick people wear them but it’s about as effective as coughing or sneezing onto your elbow instead of directly into the air

Covering your face with a scarf or wearing a mask will protect others from you, but not you from them.

Surgeons wear masks to protect their patients from Their own germs
In Asia it is considered very rude to cough in public without a mask on. The masks are to keep sick people from spreading their disease to others


When dealing with very infectious diseases it’s the aseptic technique as well as more specialized PPE that helps prevent infection

Ficheall

all about the mane wrote: »

Seriously. Quoting some bullsh1t twitter account. Drawing the conclusion that the graph you have up is laughable.

Oh, I could do with a laugh. Please explain why drawing said conclusion from the graph is laughable?

Lavinia

all about the mane wrote: »

The effect of a mask is negligible.

i rest my case.

caveat emptor

Deleted User wrote: »

That is your personal choice. Many like beards and stubble, I've seen people wearing masks over facial hair, makes them useless.

So because you saw someone with a beard masks don't work. Right. I saw someone drive a car into a lamppost. Cars don't work.

Lavinia

Lavinia wrote: »

i didn't say you did, but some of those who are defending that opinion

eg. like this one below



depending on what you do and how you do it >> mask can be helpful
calling other people 'morons' >> not helpful.

I called no individual a moron. I called the public morons and, generally, we are.

paul71

Deleted User wrote: »

No, I asked you why you chose a country with 14 times our population and you got tetchy.


I even said that doing a more like for like comparison would help your argument (it does).
You seem to not understand why procurement costs would affect the figures drastically.

Iceland, Denmark, Finland all below us, all should have procurement costs higher than us for medical devices and pharamacueticals given they are manufactured here. Procurement cost is lack of will in management of the budget to tackle those costs which if addressed would save money.

We still spend more, it is badly managed not underfunded. You got tetchy because facts don't support your arguement, therefore you choose to ignore them. I didn't I simply presented the facts.

Snipp

The bickering on this thread is getting a little ridiculous. It should be a medium for constructive debate and discussion, not morons arguing over semantics.

Wibbs

all about the mane wrote: »

You may be able to read it but it seems you don't understand it. It says only people caring for a suspect/confirmed covid19 person should wear them. Do you see that?

Read again. It also says people who are sick or suspect they are already sick should wear one. And why should both those groups wear a mask? Because they lower the risk of transmission of disease in both directions. But apparently as if by magic this risk mitigation vanishes among the general public in an epidemic?

I would see masks as like condoms. Yes they're not close to 100% and too many don't know how to use them which can lead to complacency which leads to screaming babies and/or the clap, but they're a damn sight better than going in raw or practising withdrawal.

all about the mane

Ficheall wrote: »

Oh, I could do with a laugh. Please explain why drawing said conclusion from the graph is laughable?

okay, at its very simplest, it suggests that the only differencebetween what those 3 countries are doing and what everyone else is doing is that some people in those countries wear masks. laughable

1800_Ladladlad

Because of the situation in the Netherlands with the PPE being recalled due to them being ineffective, should Ireland not be testing the first cargo of PPE they bring back from China before making the continuous back and forth trips with useless and ineffective equipment?

voluntary

I would honestly feel much safer going shopping if everyone around wore masks. Sneeze <8 meters away can pass you the virus the new research shows. If everyone wore masks sneezing or coughing in public wouldn't be that scary. Even healthy people sneeze on occasion.

Rob A. Bank

Deleted User wrote: »

I called no individual a moron. I called the public morons and, generally, we are.

I wonder why the 'powers that be' shills on this board feel the need to be so rude ?

caveat emptor

caveat emptor wrote: »

So because you saw someone with a beard masks don't work. Right. I saw someone drive a car into a lamppost. Cars don't work.

No I've said that the "instructions" there did not state to be clean shaven. Would members of the general public know that even a day or two worth of stubble makes them useless?


Oh and one quick question, for all.


Why are healthcare workers getting such high rates of infection if the masks were effective protection, for the wearer?

caveat emptor

Akrasia wrote: »

Masks are useless at protecting yourself from the virus in a community setting, they can help prevent it from spreading if sick people wear them but it’s about as effective as coughing or sneezing onto your elbow instead of directly into the air

Covering your face with a scarf or wearing a mask will protect others from you, but not you from them.

Surgeons wear masks to protect their patients from Their own germs
In Asia it is considered very rude to cough in public without a mask on. The masks are to keep sick people from spreading their disease to others


When dealing with very infectious diseases it’s the aseptic technique as well as more specialized PPE that helps prevent infection

I don't know who you are. I'm with Vlad on this one. He's advised by biological warfare experts.

all about the mane

Wibbs wrote: »

Read again. It also says people who are sick or suspect they are already sick should wear one. And why should both those groups wear a mask? Because they lower the risk of transmission of disease in both directions. But apparently as if by magic this risk mitigation vanishes among the general public in an epidemic?

I would see masks as like condoms. Yes they're not close to 100% and too many don't know how to use them which can lead to complacency which leads to screaming babies and/or the clap, but they're a damn sight better than going in raw or practising withdrawal.

I made the point earlier that is you are covid19 positive it helps to wear a mask. For everyone else, not for you.

Pinch Flat

YFlyer wrote: »

Why were passenger planes used and not cargo to pick up medical supplies?

Id magine it's down to availability of a cargo plane - leasing, crew etc and urgency. The HSE are under pressure with supplies

Gynoid

Wibbs wrote: »

I would see masks as like condoms. Yes they're not close to 100% and too many don't know how to use them which can lead to complacency which leads to screaming babies and/or the clap, but they're a damn sight better than going in raw or practising withdrawal.

Roh kay that has forever made the link in my mind between the phrase "going in raw" and not wearing a mask. Thank you.

MarkY91

voluntary wrote: »

I would honestly feel much safer going shopping if everyone around wore masks. Sneeze <8 meters away can pass you the virus the new research shows. If everyone wore masks sneezing or coughing in public wouldn't be that scary. Even healthy people sneeze on occasion.

What if everyone coughed and sneezed into their jumper at the elbow as we're supposed to?

I know not everyone is following these rules but these idiots would be the ones to choose not go wear a mask if we were all supposed to

stockshares

Briefing on now on news now.

caveat emptor

Deleted User wrote: »

No I've said that the "instructions" there did not state to be clean shaven. Would members of the general public know that even a day or two worth of stubble makes them useless?


Oh and one quick question, for all.


Why are healthcare workers getting such high rates of infection if the masks were effective protection, for the wearer?

Good question. I'd say because they weren't advised to were goggles. That's my guess. Everyone either hoping agains hope that it's not airborne. It is.

Rob A. Bank

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

I wonder why the 'powers that be' shills on this board feel the need to be so rude ?

That a panic/fear inspired mass of people is not the most sensible?



Nice personal comment regarding shilling, btw. But hey, I've only got an biology degree. I can not read and understand the full reasoning as to why masks are not being advised.

Ficheall

all about the mane wrote: »

okay, at its very simplest, it suggests that the only differencebetween what those 3 countries are doing and what everyone else is doing is that some people in those countries wear masks. laughable

No it doesn't. It highlights one difference between the two groups, yes. It does not suggest it's the only difference.

On the other hand, it definitely doesn't suggest that wearing masks is useless as you claim. Have you a convenient picture to back your point up?

YFlyer

Kerry25x wrote: »

They are not mixed, they're in isolation rooms.

You said covid patients and regular patients are on same ward.

caveat emptor

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Id magine it's down to availability of a cargo plane - leasing, crew etc and urgency. The HSE are under pressure with supplies

The government and HSE should be under more pressure to procure for the public. To stop the PUBLIC health emergency.

caveat emptor

caveat emptor wrote: »

Good question. I'd say because they weren't advised to were goggles. That's my guess. Everyone either hoping agains hope that it's not airborne. It is.

They are wearing face shields, in aerosol risk areas.



Goggles only protect against spray droplets and not full airborne particles. Unless they are sealed goggles, which are not in general use.

Hobgoblin11

The surge has begun! Calm down folks!

YFlyer

YFlyer wrote: »

You said covid patients and regular patients are on same ward.

Wards have several rooms...

caveat emptor

Snipp wrote: »

The bickering on this thread is getting a little ridiculous. It should be a medium for constructive debate and discussion, not morons arguing over semantics.

The commenting on the bickering on this thread is distracting.

kaymin

all about the mane wrote: »

The effect of a mask is negligible.

Why do nurses and doctors use them if the benefits are negligible. And don't respond with how complicated they are to use properly. Any halfwit can follow a few simple procedures like avoiding touching mask / face and washing hands.

caveat emptor

Hobgoblin11 wrote: »

The surge has begun! Calm down folks!

You calm down.

all about the mane

Ficheall wrote: »

No it doesn't. It highlights one difference between the two groups, yes. It does not suggest it's the only difference.

On the other hand, it definitely doesn't suggest that wearing masks is useless as you claim. Have you a convenient picture to back your point up?

the graph doesn't highlight anything in relation to mask wearing. that is just a giant leap being made by some on here.

I work in a job that requires theuse of masks for pat of my role. I have years of training. i can't link to that