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What will the economy look like in 6 months time?
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It's the only way forward within current framework. Anything else puts the bloc at risk of crumbling.
Germany would do well to remember that to a large extent, other European economies carried the can for reunification. Eaten bread is soon forgotten.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/german-reunification-delayed-the-arrival-of-the-celtic-tiger-1.3635946
It's also extremely easy for countries like Germany to forget that the EU provides them with enormous 'domestic' markets for things like cars, appliances, technical goods and so on and the Netherlands, much like ourselves, is a gateway in and out of the EU single market and has profited enormously on that. It's arguably a tax haven, so I mean it's a little condescending and arrogant to start lecturing Portugal (as their finance minister did).
Compared to the US, the EU has been relatively political sane though if a bit slow moving. It would be stranger if there were no arguments and I would expect that, with some safe guards, the whole bloc will, hopefully, pull together.
If there's an issue with Eastern European fringes that are dabbling in Russian inspired authoritarianism, most of them are not in the Eurozone anyway and can be largely ignored.
I think the biggest lesson to be learned from this is the EU needs to have relevant health and biosecurity roles in the future. We cannot have a situation where this ever happens again. The human, social and economic impact of it has been unacceptably enormous and it's fairly clear no countries were taking it seriously enough.
Economically though, I think the fact it's a global crisis that will largely involve social spending puts Ireland and Europe in general in a strong position. For the most part, we have a lot more cohesion and social systems than much of the world and it's not really military might that's going to solve this. It's really down to being able to keep countries together, keep people protected from a health issue and being able to unfreeze things appropriately when it's safe to do so.
My view of it is that social democracies like the majority of the EU, Canada, Australia, many parts of Asia and so on have a better hope of doing that than the current iteration of the US has and they can do it with opt-in cooperation rather than authoritarianism like China.0 -
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Annabella1 wrote: »Can see big government reforms in legal profession
Sucking the life out of the country
Last few weeks shows how useful the lot of them are
Yeah 1000 per hour for some 'learned' gobsh**e.
It's a ridiculously over paid profession.0 -
Annabella1 wrote: »Can see big government reforms in legal profession
Sucking the life out of the country
Last few weeks shows how useful the lot of them are
I had a chuckle at that. If there were a zombie apocalypse the legal profession in Ireland would remain unreformed, and profit from it.0 -
Absolutely for sure, if you think house prices were low in 2010, late 2020 is going to be a walk in the park.
There's going to be big changes and you my friend are going to be saving yourself a lot of money.
One of my mates she's a doctor and she bought a 3 bed holiday home in Liscannor during the last recession for 48,000 euros
The vendors couldn't afford the payments so they sold it off for half nothing.
I wouldn't be so confident of a big drop in house prices. Any drop at all will have a big impact on the viability of new house construction which would still leave a big deficit of supply. There may be a drop in demand but I doubt that will be significant, a big chunk of the population isn't just going to disappear. Lower prices would also create more demand which increases the competition for the limited available houses. The conditions around the housing market aren't going to change significantly.0 -
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Pete_Cavan wrote: »I wouldn't be so confident of a big drop in house prices. Any drop at all will have a big impact on the viability of new house construction which would still leave a big deficit of supply. There may be a drop in demand but I doubt that will be significant, a big chunk of the population isn't just going to disappear. Lower prices would also create more demand which increases the competition for the limited available houses. The conditions around the housing market aren't going to change significantly.
Well I'm banking on houses taking a good dip, as they're too expensive and people need a home and from my observations we're going to be back to a lot of families with one person in the house working and the other at home.
It'll be similar to the 50s, my female friends whom are married are starting to think is it worth working full time and basically throwing money at childcare and into mortgages to feed the vultures and banks.
They're stressed to the hilt trying to bring up kids, working 8 hours 5 days a week and probably having a bit left over for savings car loan and holidays.
So the option for a 3 day week seems quite attractive or working part time at home.
As kids are missing out a lot in the first 5 years of their lives.
Im traditional in my family values, so I can understand that.
Im a public sector worker myself, working in the outdoors looking after parklands forestry and historical gardens etc and I was told last year that if I ever want to be on a 4 day a week it's an option.
Which is affordable as I had inheritance 16 years ago and put 90% of it into a house and the 10% which is only a miniscule amount is the top up mortgage.
€149 a month repayment which is manageable.
So I've a good quality of life.
I was lucky enough to fall on my feet.
There's a lot of people who are up to their eyeballs in it, and it's causing stress and anxiety, which isn't good for a society.
All because we're being hoodwinked into bartering our quality of life for endless debt and flashy material objects.
Flashy objects and objet d'art is nice if I can afford it and not put it in front of my primary purpose.
I was once caught up with the BMW, 7 for all mankind jeans stuffed into the drawers, along with shirts and tshirts , I've 3 belstaff biker wax jackets, 6 pairs of redwing iron ranger's sitting by the door.
A collection of chainsaws, two sound systems Bowers and Wilkinson in one room, bose cinema in another room.
3 technics turntables mixers, record collection that's nearly too heavy for the box room.
Art collection...surfboards for different conditions wetsuits a wet room
All paid for out of lump sum loans, which were paid off before Christmas.
I've enough quality clobber, tools, music, fishing and surf gear to keep me satisfied but none of it was for free.
Peppered in Tatoos which are expensive and I love them, and I think now I'm having to buckle down and live frugally for the foreseeable future.
I'm lucky that's all luck was on my side.
But some people are in Dire Straits at the moment, and I hope they will be looked after.0 -
Well I'm banking on houses taking a good dip, as they're too expensive and people need a home and from my observations we're going to be back to a lot of families with one person in the house working and the other at home.
I don't see anything in what you have said that supports the idea of house prices dropping. The under-supply is going to remain and if anything the rate of new supply will drop so demand will likely continue to far outweigh supply.
Mortgages are already restricted and further restrictions are unlikely so we won't see financing dry up like after 08. If prices drop, financing for developers could dry up which would push all purchasers into competition for the limited second hand houses on the market. The majority of the mid and high income earners working in finance and tech companies will keep their jobs and it is them driving prices up. All these things will put upward pressure on house prices.0 -
Annabella1 wrote: »Can see big government reforms in legal profession
Sucking the life out of the country
Last few weeks shows how useful the lot of them are
I hope you right but the Government won't do it until we make them.
Recently who did they put in charge of REFORMING our "claim culture"
THE LEARNED JUDGES whos profession are instigating same.
I was talking to a woman recently who was having difficulties, the man she married owned what was traditionally family home/land.
She went to ask for legal advise and the solicitor said he wanted €32,000.
Basically in my opinion the Legal profession are doing what the Catholic church has done in the past.
God we are EEJITS0 -
Economists say the cost to the economy will be 15 to 20 billion. So metro north is gone, bus connects is gone, new children’s hospital is gone, new maternity hospital is gone, new social housing is gone and a significant increase in USC is coming.0
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Well I'm banking on houses taking a good dip, as they're too expensive and people need a home and from my observations we're going to be back to a lot of families with one person in the house working and the other at home.
It'll be similar to the 50s, my female friends whom are married are starting to think is it worth working full time and basically throwing money at childcare and into mortgages to feed the vultures and banks.
They're stressed to the hilt trying to bring up kids, working 8 hours 5 days a week and probably having a bit left over for savings car loan and holidays.
So the option for a 3 day week seems quite attractive or working part time at home.
As kids are missing out a lot in the first 5 years of their lives.
Im traditional in my family values, so I can understand that.
Im a public sector worker myself, working in the outdoors looking after parklands forestry and historical gardens etc and I was told last year that if I ever want to be on a 4 day a week it's an option.
Which is affordable as I had inheritance 16 years ago and put 90% of it into a house and the 10% which is only a miniscule amount is the top up mortgage.
€149 a month repayment which is manageable.
So I've a good quality of life.
I was lucky enough to fall on my feet.
There's a lot of people who are up to their eyeballs in it, and it's causing stress and anxiety, which isn't good for a society.
All because we're being hoodwinked into bartering our quality of life for endless debt and flashy material objects.
Flashy objects and objet d'art is nice if I can afford it and not put it in front of my primary purpose.
I was once caught up with the BMW, 7 for all mankind jeans stuffed into the drawers, along with shirts and tshirts , I've 3 belstaff biker wax jackets, 6 pairs of redwing iron ranger's sitting by the door.
A collection of chainsaws, two sound systems Bowers and Wilkinson in one room, bose cinema in another room.
3 technics turntables mixers, record collection that's nearly too heavy for the box room.
Art collection...surfboards for different conditions wetsuits a wet room
All paid for out of lump sum loans, which were paid off before Christmas.
I've enough quality clobber, tools, music, fishing and surf gear to keep me satisfied but none of it was for free.
Peppered in Tatoos which are expensive and I love them, and I think now I'm having to buckle down and live frugally for the foreseeable future.
I'm lucky that's all luck was on my side.
But some people are in Dire Straits at the moment, and I hope they will be looked after.
If those technics are gathering dust id take them off you for a fair price!0 -
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maestroamado wrote: »I hope you right but the Government won't do it until we make them.
Recently who did they put in charge of REFORMING our "claim culture"
THE LEARNED JUDGES whos profession are instigating same.
I was talking to a woman recently who was having difficulties, the man she married owned what was traditionally family home/land.
She went to ask for legal advise and the solicitor said he wanted €32,000.
Basically in my opinion the Legal profession are doing what the Catholic church has done in the past.
God we are EEJITS
And that's without a reach around.
What a vanker, 32000 for a few signatures and letters on a few photo copied and pasted documents , sounds like that solicitor has some kind of bad habit.
But I believe you, more than likely that solicitor is just like a lot of the rest of them, living the high life and no doubt his kin would defend his ineptitude.
Another fluff job
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Economists say the cost to the economy will be 15 to 20 billion. So metro north is gone, bus connects is gone, new children’s hospital is gone, new maternity hospital is gone, new social housing is gone and a significant increase in USC is coming.
Not sure they can halt the Children's hospital now but yeah the economy is going to shrink considerably. The world economy will suffer immensely and that will obviously impact us even more.
Tourism is in for some very tough years. We will be encouraged to have staycations which is fine with me really.
House prices can only go one way. Massive unemployment and affordability will force that. Hard to know how far they will drop. Emigration wont be an option for quite a while but I imagine many foreign nationals will get out of Dodge (particularly the hard working Eastern Europeans).
The next budget will be a doozy.0 -
Property in the Dublin area is unlikely to drop much with huge under supply of properties to buy or rent before the Covid crisis.
Its in parts of rural Ireland where there are no jobs and an ageing population could see some sizable drops in prices. Rural Ireland wouldn't need to see many deaths from covid 19 potentially adding more properties to a depressed market.0 -
Id say that a lot of the tourism companies and sites will be dropping their prices at the doors.
The likes of Blarney Castle, Malahide Castle, Bunratty Castle and folk Park and Muckross in Killarney will be quite popular with the domestic market.
B&B's will be operating at lower rates and hotels will be offering family packages at affordable prices again.
As an example Surf camps and horse riding schools will be popular with kids and teenagers.
Because after all this people will want to be partaking in outdoor activities, being sick and tired of being house bound and all.
It'll be an interesting time that's for sure I don't think it'll be all bad.
For people who hadn't much to begin with will prosper better than anyone who lost it all in one foul swoop.
I feel sorry for those who had jobs in industries which have collectively collapsed, that's going to be a hard pill to swallow.
Friends of mine are taking it on the chin, they know already that the writings on the door for their employer, and Ceos in big companies will have their big salaries cut to the bone, because they will have to take more pain than the rest of the company.
So the guy who is on the production lines salary won't be far off his line leaders if not the same.
Shares in the likes of Dromoland Castle and other 5 star hotels will have plummeted and they'll be making big changes too.
It'll be like the late 60's again but we'll manage to get through it.
It won't be easy for people who were used to buying expensive clothes, cars and other luxury items that's for sure.
But what will make it easier is we're all going to be in the same boat, and we'll appreciate what we have and anything we work for will be more appreciated.
Laissez-faire is a useful quote in these times.
I am not an expert but i think it is just as likely that all the establishments you have mentioned above would jack up the prices once they realise that people have limited recreational options due to restricted travel even within EU due to the virus concerns. We could still end up in ripoff republic.0 -
It’s early days yet of covid-19, however the past couple of days the number of new cases have been in or around 200-250. If all goes well, and the curve is indeed starting to flatten, it begs the question of how our economy will cope? Will this be a short lived depression, which will bounce back relatively quickly, or will we be thrown into a 2008 type scenario?
One thing is for certain you can expect another round of austerity measures and jacking up of USC to pay for it all again. That will mean less money in the paypacket meaning less money to spend etc. It's hard to know. Maybe the entire economy will evolve in a different direction...more remote work. I'd say a lot of people will be reassessing their priorities. These knobs who just couldn't live without their Starbucks double mocha caramel skinny latte but have been forced to forego that crap for weeks now and they've probably survived. So you might see a lot of these boutique coffee houses going the way of the dodo. Could be the final nail in the coffin of the churches too. If you're a religionist you obviously don't need to go to a church. Just do whatever it is you do at home or online.
Will people also decide that they can actually survive without the Premiership? How many airlines will go belly up?0 -
True. I live in the city centre and can’t help wondering how many pubs doors have shut for good?
Do pubs live week to week? I don't know much about how they operate, how often they have to pay bills. If they get a moratorium on rent then they might be ok but if they still have to pay that then they're in a bit of a bind.0 -
suicide_circus wrote: »who are the big financial winners here? medical supplies manufacturers...who else?
Deliveroo0 -
Authored by Charles Hugh Smith via The Daily Reckoning blog,
To understand why the financial dominoes toppled by the Covid-19 pandemic lead to global insolvency, let’s start with a household example. The point of this exercise is to distinguish between the market value of assets and net worth, which is what’s left after debts are subtracted from the market value of assets.
Let’s say the household has done very well for itself and owns assets worth $1 million: a home, a family business, 401K retirement accounts and a portfolio of stocks and other investments.
The household also has $500,000 in debts: home mortgage, auto loans, student loans and credit card balances.
The household net worth is thus $1,00*0,00*0 minus $500,000 = $500,000.
Let’s say a typical financial crisis and recession occur, and the household’s assets fall 30%. 30% of $1 million is $300,000, so the market value of the household’s assets falls to $700,000.
Deduct the $500,000 in debts and the household’s net worth has fallen to $200,000. The point here is debts remain regardless of what happens to the market value of assets owned by the household.
Then the speculative asset bubbles re-inflate, and the household takes on more debt in the euphoric expansion of confidence to buy a larger house, expand the family business and enjoy life more.
Now the household assets are worth $2 million, but debt has risen to $1.5 million. Net worth remains at $500,000, since debt has risen along with asset values.
Alas, all bubbles pop, and the market value of the household assets decline by 30%, or $600,000. Now the household assets are worth $2,00*0,00*0 minus $600,000 or $1,400,000. The household net worth is now $1,40*0,00*0 minus $1,50*0,00*0 or negative $100,000. The household is insolvent.
On top of that, the net income of the family business plummets to near-zero in the recession, leaving insufficient income to pay all the debts the household has taken on.
This is an exact analog for the entire global economy, which pre-pandemic had assets with a market value of $350 trillion and debts of $255 trillion and thus a net worth of around $100 trillion.
The $11 trillion that has evaporated in the market value of U.S. stocks is only a taste of the losses in market value. Global stock markets has lost $30 trillion, and once yields rise despite central bank manipulations (oops, I mean intervention), $30 trillion in the market value of bonds will vanish into thin air.
The market value of junk bonds has already plummeted by trillions, and that’s not even counting the trillions lost in small business equity, shadow banking and a host of other non-tradable assets.
Then there’s the most massive asset bubble of all, real estate. Millions of properties delusional owners still think are worth $1.4 million will soon revert to a more reality-based valuation around $400,000, or perhaps even less, meaning $1 million per property will melt into air.
Once the market value of global assets falls by $100 trillion, the world is insolvent.
Everyone expecting the financial markets to magically return to January 2020 levels once the pandemic dies down is delusional. All the dominoes of crashing market valuations, crashing incomes, crashing profits and soaring defaults will take down all the fantasy-based valuations of bubblicious assets:
Stocks, bonds, real estate, bat guano, you name it.
The global financial system has already lost $100 trillion in market value, and therefore it’s already insolvent. The only question remaining is how insolvent?
Here’s a hint: companies whose shares were recently worth $500 or $300 will be worth $10 or $20 when this is over. Bonds that were supposedly “safe” will lose 50% of their market value. Real estate will be lucky to retain 40% of its current value. And so on.
As net worth crashes below zero, debts remain. The loans must still be serviced or paid off, and if the borrowers default, then the losses must be absorbed by the lenders or taxpayers, if we get a repeat of 2008 and the insolvent taxpayers are forced to bail out the insolvent financial elites.
Here’s the S&P 500. Where is the bottom?
There is no bottom, but nobody dares say this. Companies with negative profits have no value other than the cash on hand and the near-zero auction value of other assets. Subtract their immense debts and they have negative net worth, and therefore the market value of their stock is zero.
But don’t worry, the government is on the case…
That governments around the world will be forced to distribute “helicopter money” to keep their people fed and housed and their economies from imploding is already a given. Closing all non-essential businesses and gatherings will crimp the livelihood of millions of households and small businesses that lack the financial resources to survive weeks without any revenues.
The only question is whether governments which can borrow or print fresh currency will get ahead of the implosion or fall behind, creating a binary choice: go big now or go home.
Half-measures in helicopter money work about as well as half-measures in quarantine, i.e. they fail to achieve the intended objectives. Dribbling out modest low-interest loans is a half-measure, as is cutting payroll taxes.
Neither measure will help employees or small businesses whose income has fallen below the minimum needed to pay essential bills: rent, food, utilities, etc.
Meanwhile, the ruling elites will be under increasing pressure to bail out greedy financial elites and gamblers. Those are the scoundrels and parasites they bailed out in 2008-09. But this is not just another speculative bubble-pop, this is a matter of life and death and solvency for the masses of at-risk households and small businesses.
It is a different zeitgeist and a different crisis, and bailing out greedy parasites (banks, indebted corporations, speculators, financiers, etc.) will not go over big while households and small businesses are going bankrupt.
The Federal Reserve has been handed a lesson in the ineffectiveness of the usual monetary “bazooka” in bailing out the predatory-parasitic class of overleveraged gamblers. Nearly free money for financiers isn’t going to save the economy or non-elites sliding toward insolvency.
Instead of leaving the bottom 99.5% to twist in the wind while enriching the predatory-parasitic class, the ruling elites will have to let the top 0.5% twist in the wind and save the bottom 99.5%. This will require going against all the thousands of lobbyists, all the chums at the club, and all the millions in campaign contributions, but it’s a binary choice.
Either save your citizenry or sacrifice your legitimacy by bailing out the predatory-parasitic class. If the ruling elites save their parasitic pals, the public will demand the scalps of the predatory-parasitic class, and as the crisis deepens, they will eject every craven, greedy elected toady who caved in to the predatory-parasitic class.
So listen up ruling elites: either go big or go home. Either accept that it’s going to take several trillion dollars in helicopter money to insure the most vulnerable households and real-world enterprises remain solvent, or quit and go home.
The pandemic crisis isn’t going to end in April or May, though the urge to indulge in such magical thinking is powerful. It might still be expanding in August and September.
This is why it’s imperative to go big now, and make plans to sustain the most vulnerable households and small employers not for two weeks but for six months, or however long proves necessary.
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/go-big-or-go-home-ruling-elites-last-stand?fbclid=IwAR1OS6BwOwC36evNCE51m6xBtY2hgBeMXKL0XsKH5GQv-iyGZjCeCYu8oE40 -
They’re not borrowing money from each other. They’re selling bonds on the financial markets.
You need to figure out what bond is and then you will see that he was right. They are borrowing money from each other.
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/bond.asp0 -
ShatterAlan wrote: »One thing is for certain you can expect another round of austerity measures and jacking up of USC to pay for it all again. That will mean less money in the paypacket meaning less money to spend etc. It's hard to know. Maybe the entire economy will evolve in a different direction...more remote work. I'd say a lot of people will be reassessing their priorities. These knobs who just couldn't live without their Starbucks double mocha caramel skinny latte but have been forced to forego that crap for weeks now and they've probably survived. So you might see a lot of these boutique coffee houses going the way of the dodo. Could be the final nail in the coffin of the churches too. If you're a religionist you obviously don't need to go to a church. Just do whatever it is you do at home or online.
Will people also decide that they can actually survive without the Premiership? How many airlines will go belly up?
Correct. People are trying to predict what is going to happen when nothing is quite sure but the one thing you mentioned.
No matter what happens this is way too good opportunity for government to skin everyone alive. If you think 2008 austerity was bad you are in for big surprise. We can expect death by million of cuts.0 -
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as we are all isolating hard to speak to many , but the few I have including myself have all no work now, small business closing everywher - Who is going to pay for this massive unemployment bill - totally depressing0
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patnor1011 wrote: »You need to figure out what bond is and then you will see that he was right. They are borrowing money from each other.
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/bond.asp
No governments don't in general buy bonds of other governments. Its generally private investors.patnor1011 wrote: »Correct. People are trying to predict what is going to happen when nothing is quite sure but the one thing you mentioned.
No matter what happens this is way too good opportunity for government to skin everyone alive. If you think 2008 austerity was bad you are in for big surprise. We can expect death by million of cuts.
No way will that work. This debt has to be monetized.Economists say the cost to the economy will be 15 to 20 billion. So metro north is gone, bus connects is gone, new children’s hospital is gone, new maternity hospital is gone, new social housing is gone and a significant increase in USC is coming.
ECB will buy them all.0 -
patnor1011 wrote: »Correct. People are trying to predict what is going to happen when nothing is quite sure but the one thing you mentioned.
No matter what happens this is way too good opportunity for government to skin everyone alive. If you think 2008 austerity was bad you are in for big surprise. We can expect death by million of cuts.
I think they're not going to risk fleecing us and expect a just and happy society.
More than likely the interest rate will be cut and the financial system will have to be set up so it could take up to 100 years to complete the payback.
Rather like say if you had a loan, and spread it out over2 years, and you're in a bad place financially and its too much.
So you restructure the load over 5 years and pay it off in less instalments over a longer period.
And at a lower interest rate.
Believe you me, if the butcher the Baker and candle stick maker's are having to live in poverty for the rest of their lives and the parasites on top are not taking a big hit there will be absolute carnage.
Especially in France, if you think the French revolution was an eye opener then you've seen nothing yet.
Through no fault of our own we're all locked up in a new world and in fairness we're all behaving ourselves better than the hierarchy expected.
They've no choice but to be soft on us, because we need the world to carry on and I guarantee you that there's people who've invested millions in products and high risk shares and they're worthless.
For instance you could have invested in some low risk stocks and they're getting a hammering at the moment, your investment in cash will be at a big loss too.
Some people will be absolutely gone from park avenue to park bench and from lobster to foraging for snail's along the fence line of the slums....
There's people sitting down tonight and they've worked very hard to build up their lives and businesses and employing a lot of people and its all gone zero, zilch and they've friends in the same boat.
These business men are all connected and the only way they can fix this is to get the people on lower ranks on their side because the likes of the butcher the Baker and candle stick maker people like myself are needed to keep the cogs turning.
The only way through this is making it fair for all the hard working people and people who are disabled the sick and the elderly.
As for the people who don't want to work or add anything to society they'll carry on with their lives too.
But I've a feeling that after this they'll have to help out too, maybe bring back community employment schemes and include recycling, looking after the local amenities and clean up rivers and the beaches.
Maybe get landscape architects to design parklands and enhance the outdoors more.
Therefore employing gardener's, landscapers and guys and women growing plants, nice summer, autumn, winter and spring Gardens.
We have the climate for that, we could have the best parklands and outdoor spaces in the world and I suppose that's my dream is to have a green Ireland and natural habitats.
Clean up around 10% of the tower houses, old mansions and castles and walled gardens turn Ireland into a destination for people from all over the world, we're capable of being great hosts and entertainers.
Let the people love their culture and country and their culture and country will look after the people.
There's a lot of people who are more in tune with the outdoors and heritage than we realise and are well talented and they're doing jobs which they hate but it keeps the bread on the table and roof over their heads.
For a country of huge potential there's not enough emphasis on the parks, historical sites and the tourism sector.
That's where we excel, and we were pretty damn good at it in the past.
There was a man Called Brendan O Regan who was very passionate about bringing jobs and tourists to the Shannon Region there's not many like him there anymore, due to bureaucracy and this " that's mine" culture...
And I feel that we could build a better place for us here, but I'd say it would be hard at the start, maybe a small trial and build it gradually...
A risk I know0 -
The above post is a good one. We were edging very close to a celtic tiger era style metastasised growth at all costs and damn the concequences economy until this happened. I think we'll see a more considered approach towards growth and it may not be all that bad if we accept that economic growth for its own sake is actually counterproductive in many ways.
A very interesting thing happened after Japan's outrageous bubble popped, they in many ways have accepted low to no growth for the past couple of decades and have cultivated their public realm, their culture and most Japanese live a fairly serene life despite the nominal economy not having seen all that much growth since then. It's not a country without its problems, but it's not a place that is obsessed with breakneck growth. It's almost as if they said 'we're wealthy enough thank you very much, no more of that.'0 -
Breakneck growth is not sustainable anyway over the the long term. More and more people using up the earths resources. How can it last and whats it all about anyway. Do we really need that new phone or TV or Car when the one we already have does 99% of what the new one does.
Less consumerism and a bit more care about our heritage, parks, culture as mentioned above. Take up hobbies or sports instead of the non stop shopping and consumerism. We don't need to be working as long either. Shorter working weeks or 4 day weeks, surely we can configure our society so both parents don't need to be out working 40 hrs a week just to put a roof over your head.0 -
The above post is a good one. We were edging very close to a celtic tiger era style metastasised growth at all costs and damn the concequences economy until this happened. I think we'll see a more considered approach towards growth and it may not be all that bad if we accept that economic growth for its own sake is actually counterproductive in many ways.
A very interesting thing happened after Japan's outrageous bubble popped, they in many ways have accepted low to no growth for the past couple of decades and have cultivated their public realm, their culture and most Japanese live a fairly serene life despite the nominal economy not having seen all that much growth since then. It's not a country without its problems, but it's not a place that is obsessed with breakneck growth. It's almost as if they said 'we're wealthy enough thank you very much, no more of that.'
Im glad you were able to appreciate my post.
Sounds like a fantasy, but I think it could be done on a small scale and not over saturated.
See how it goes, in reality we don't need a huge amount of money to get through life and I suppose people's merits should be measured on their abilities rather than greed and selfishness.
I remember a series of startrek and they went back in time and an earthling appeared on the enterprise, his focus was more on the wages etc on running a star ship, but Picard put him straight along the lines of how people don't work for finance awards anymore rather they work on helping others and themselves and they have contentment with their lot.
Sounds like a good idea on paper doesn't it.
I was once one of those so called elites in society but I got burnt a few times and had to give up, I was too laid back to be living a lie and having to make hard decisions which enhanced my life and made others life less important.
I couldn't do it anymore because I'd be out with the lads drinking and tripping the night fantastic, glamorous girlfriends and nice material goods objet d'art and people looked at me as if I had it all.
But I was rotting from the inside out with guilt and resenting my career of choice.
But I thought it was they way I have to be, it suits some people who can be ruthless and cut down on staff rearrange the company structure to put more money in investors pockets and the hard working men and women being let go because an engineer in the lower ranks of management could source a machine which was expensive but could do the job of 4 men, therefore cutting out 3 men or women and in long term make better profits for the investors.
That's still going on, machinery being more important than our fellow men and women, then getting a bag of silver for being the guy who made the hard decision to lay off good people..
Like in the gangster movies, nothing personal bang, just business...
If there was a hell I'd be more than welcome there...
But what I'm trying to say without being all sunshine Lollipops and rainbow's is the whole system is unfair..
Im not a leftie social justice warrior or hippy that wants everything to be the way I want it to be just to score a few "thanks"
Just admitting I've been in the cooperative world and it didn't suit me and if someone else can handle the hard decisions, then I admire their strength to be able to live with it.
Because it ain't easy....
Im working on designing garden tools that make life easier at the moment, hopefully it'll take off.
Quite simple designs but a tweak here and there, and they'll be more user friendly and will help people who have back and knee problems...
Especially people who are on their knees a lot.
Or bending over and find it difficult to get the job done.0 -
Unemployment losses will be massive in construction, restaurants, hotel trade, pubs, small businesses across the country and won't recover. A lot of places will be forced to close. Pubs will have a boom for a month after this is over but will completely drop off again.
New car price sales will plummet. People will get the wake up call not to live pay check to check.
House prices will fall dramatically particularly outside of Dublin and rents will continue to spire out of control.
People will be paying off extra debt for at least 12 months or longer or could be ruined by debt.
Stricter guidelines on welfare, could significantly drop for some people.
People remaining working are going to be hit with increased taxes.
I could go on and on but...0 -
snoopboggybog wrote:People remaining working are going to be hit with increased taxes.
Why would this happen, the government is effectively getting the loans for free with negative interest rates?0 -
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I don't understand why people are saying that we're going to be taxed to the hilt.
Do ye realise that it's the big earners etc who will be hit the most, and middle and low incomes will be hit less so.
The only way to sort this out is to hammer the parasitic elite and its looking like there's going to be a different monetary structure after all this.
With these cretins with millions and billions in reserve, the only way to find a solution is to use their money to reset the economy by taxing them @90%
Nothing they can do about it, because they have enough money left after that to live out the rest of their lives in luxury.
I say turn the whole fcking lot on its head, and rattle the bastards.
Why is there billions of profits in these multinationals?
Why isn't it distributed fairly only to be sitting in cyber space, digital currency is all it is.
If fluctuates throughout the day depending on the market value.
There's not enough money printed on the planet to match all the value of these multinationals profits,like Facebook, Microsoft and others.
Its all speculation and its "THE EMPERORS NEW CLOTHES" of the 21 century and it doesn't exist
Never has they're lying.
Because something of value is valued and not wasting away in limbo inside some fcking cyberspace.
Those billions we hear about, where are they?
They're no where, its all a game and people listen to the lies of speculators day in day out.
Wasting their head space, oh yawww im working for multinational... We made 6.5billion in profits lost year.
They didn't there's no money like that on the planet.
Soon enough with all these companies nose diving you'll see they won't have enough money to advertise, the likes of Facebook won't be getting advertising revenue.
Slowly you'll see Facebook start to lose its value, it'll start off with a trickle and then all of a sudden it'll be a good idea to start to lay off staff.
People will be wondering, sure Facebook or some other multinational has billions why are they laying off staff?
Why???0
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