Time to call out the horse racing industry

Huntergonzo

I think Cheltenham should probably have been cancelled but look, the UK still weren't taking the whole thing seriously so it's not like they ploughed on in the middle of a lockdown.

Regrettable decision to go ahead, but what's done is done.

As for horse racing, I'm in favour of it and I hope it continues to thrive.

The animal cruelty brigade tends to go very overboard about these sort of things and they're only getting worse with all the snowflakes we have around these days to join their cause.

I grew up around animals on a dairy farm and while cattle were our bread and butter we also kept a few horses as pets basically and still know plenty of people in the horse industry.

We loved our animals and never miss treated them and while there are always going to be a few bad eggs, the vast majority of horse owners/trainers/breeders I know treat their animals very well, they love their horses, it's their passion.

That's just in my first hand experience though, but I'm sure the snowflakes who've probably never even been on a farm nor a stud know better ;-)

Strumms

The Tetrarch wrote: »

To gamble is a choice allowed in a democracy.
People "invest" in houses and shares with not a idea how to assess risk or to research value.
But that is ok, because it is investing, and in six figure sums.

I bet occasionally, and am happy to report I ended 2019 transferring money from my Betfair account to my bank account.
You win, you lose. You learn and improve.
You and others appear to equate betting with unthinking, compulsive action. Sorry to disappoint.

People don’t invest in houses in the main though. They buy a house because they need somewhere to live. Without housing, shelter... you’ll die.

If you choose not to gamble it’s a choice correct. Gambling as pointed out is a multi million / billion industry. Gambling by definition is ‘a game of chance’... that is the literal definition. A game. Other industries have stopped in light of the global health crisis. Horse racing doesn’t want to because the big wigs, movers and shakers have had the snouts in the trough and they know nothing else. It doesn’t matter the crisis, they are not willing to see their bank accounts stagnant, global health crisis or otherwise. They are motivated by money, only. How and what extents they will go to get it ? We are seeing it now.

Hulk Hands

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Are you even reading the posts? The gambling industry does fund them. It comes from the betting levy

How much do you they get in government funding? That's what should be slashed.

6

6 wrote: »

How much do you they get in government funding? That's what should be slashed.

Nothing. It all comes from a levy on betting.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Nothing. It all comes from a levy on betting.

And who distributes the money?

The Tetrarch

Strumms wrote: »

People don’t invest in houses in the main though. They buy a house because they need somewhere to live. Without housing, shelter... you’ll die.

If you choose not to gamble it’s a choice correct. Gambling as pointed out is a multi million / billion industry. Gambling by definition is ‘a game of chance’... that is the literal definition. A game. Other industries have stopped in light of the global health crisis. Horse racing doesn’t want to because the big wigs, movers and shakers have had the snouts in the trough and they know nothing else. It doesn’t matter the crisis, they are not willing to see their bank accounts stagnant, global health crisis or otherwise. They are motivated by money, only. How and what extents they will go to get it ? We are seeing it now.

People do invest in houses. They buy them.
Why do they buy them? To invest in an asset for security in their old age when they will not be able to rent.

You could have also said: "They rent a house because they need somewhere to live. Without housing, shelter... you’ll die."

Every negative comment you make about the horse racing industry you could also make about every other business.
Businesses are run with the intention of making a profit.
If you want to discuss the subject you should drop the childish expressions "big wigs", "movers and shakers", "snouts in the trough", "motivated by money, only".

If people want to bet on any event it is their choice.
You can improve your chances of success if you work hard at it.
Problem gamblers are a problem to themselves and the other betters.
From every case I have read they do no analysis.
Would you expect success in the stock market without analysis of companies, or expect success launching a new product without market research?
People love to hear about problem gamblers. They hate to hear about anyone winning. That is human nature. Jealousy.
The problem is not gambling, it is losing.

I choose to gamble (although I call it betting). It is the correct choice for me.

Horse racing is not responsible for the coronavirus pandemic.

Strumms

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Every negative comment you make about the horse racing industry you could also make about every other business.
Businesses are run with the intention of making a profit.

What planet are you inhabiting exactly?

Pretty much all businesses operate with profitability in mind, the health of the staff and indeed customers closed their doors... I’ll give you an example of businesses in my immediate area....

Restaurant
Gym
Swimming pool
Electronics store
Carpet store
Pub
Dentist,

I could go on....

I give you HRI’s Brian Kavanagh..

“Put it this way, they are emergency measures that are sustainable in the short-term but become more difficult the longer it goes on,” he said on Friday.
“We’ve worked with Government institutions to try and keep the show on the road, keep people earning in terms of jockeys earning riding fees, trainers with percentages of prizemoney, that the wheels are still turning.
Painful
“But if this goes on long-term it will be very painful for the industry. Like anything if you sacrifice a significant element of your customer base you can only do that short term,” Kavanagh added.

A clear broadside that these measures might be acceptable in the short term but they are pushing for leniency in regards to the measures. Suck it up sweetheart, it’s a pain in the neck but there is more than you and your fücking bank account to consider.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya!

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Thanks for the speech from the moral high ground.
I come from a time when there were few cars, less than ten in the large country town where I spent my early years.
Back then there were hundreds of horses around, used to pull carts, and as transport for people in traps and other small carriages.
Even in Dublin milk, bread, and vegetable were delivered to houses by horse drawn wagons.

Yes, all of this was wrong... It was wrong to enslave this beautiful animal for our benefit. Thankfully we don't do most of this anymore.

No outrage from you about how cars eliminated working horses and choke our streets.

Keeping horses as slaves = bad.
Pollution from cars = bad.

They're both bad... but going back to using horses as slaves, does not resolve the problem. We need to find a solution to car and truck pollution. (which we will very soon I'm sure)

What do you want to do with the 250,000 Thoroughbred breeding mares and the hundreds of thousands of racehorses in the world?
Do you want them eliminated? If you do, please say so.

Oh, so you create this huge industry of enslaved animals... then wash your hands, and say okay you clean up our mess if you don't like it! Very classy! :rolleyes:

There is no doubt it would be a huge challenge, but people who truly love animals (not the phoneys putting saddles on their back), would find a solution eventually.

The thoroughbred is bred for horse racing, descended from the Akhal-Teke that roamed Turkmenistan, bred with other horse breeds, and imported to Yorkshire, England.
There the imports were bred with the native British and Irish breeds, Hobbys and Galloways to produce racehorses, then owned by the aristocracy.

They never stopped being an animal, with feelings and emotions etc...

You think because you bred them for a specific task, that this means they are your creation? They are not your creation... you merely slightly influenced their very recent evolution. They belong to the world... the natural world.

You make it sound like Thoroughbred horses are raced every day of their lives.
A racehorse might race ten times in its life.
Of course it has to be educated and trained gradually before that.

I never said anything about thoroughbreds in my OP. You must be addressing this to someone else.

But yes, keeping horses for your own racing and gambling entertainment, is slavery... just because they're well kept and well treated, doesn't make them any less of a slave!

You have great insight into the mind of horses.
You believe you know what horses are thinking.

Yes, because of course you can prove conclusively that horses love being saddled up and being your slave and your entertainment.

I bet you think you know the mind of a horse too... you know what they want, but it's actually mostly based on what YOU want. Selfish people can convince themselves of almost anything!

In your world of true people who are not "phoneys" and "hypoocrites" horses are to be left alone to enjoy life.
Will you stable them and feed them?

Why not?

We leave other animals alone, to enjoy their life... why would we apply a different standard to a horse?

Have you ever seen horses running in the wild? It's a beautiful thing... sadly really very rare these days. But who knows, perhaps it might be more commonplace in the future!

The Tetrarch

Horses are slaves!
Do you want horses to be freed with a Slavery Abolition Act?

Where would horses go? They are not a wild breed.
There are no unfenced pastures where they could run wild.
They are housed in stables in the colder months of the year, and let out wearing rugs to keep them warm during the day.
Only in the warm months of summer are they out 24 hours a day.
You abolition of slavery / free the horses idea would probably result in death for the majority of race horses from exposure.
Thoroughbreds (race horses) were never a free breed roaming about.
They are a hybrid breed, a mix of different horse breeds, designed by humans.
They are unlike animals in the wild e.g. antelopes; deer, that breed true to type, and suited to the environment where they are found..

You say "I never said anything about thoroughbreds in my OP"
If you talk about racehorses you are talking about thoroughbreds, and a small number of AQPS (Autre Que Pur-Sang"), translated as "Other than Thoroughbred (pure blood)".
You mentioned horse racing in your opening post, and almost 100% of horses racing are thoroughbreds, so I have to guess that you know almost nothing about horses and horse racing when you correct me when I mention thoroughbreds.

It is difficult to discuss horse racing with a person who knows almost nothing about the subject.
First they have to be educated, then their nonsensical ideas have to be refuted.

statesaver

This seems to be more of the ' i don't like it, so lets cancel it, dox it, ban it '

Yawn

Slim Charles

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

Yes, all of this was wrong... It was wrong to enslave this beautiful animal for our benefit. Thankfully we don't do most of this anymore.



Keeping horses as slaves = bad.
Pollution from cars = bad.

They're both bad... but going back to using horses as slaves, does not resolve the problem. We need to find a solution to car and truck pollution. (which we will very soon I'm sure)



Oh, so you create this huge industry of enslaved animals... then wash your hands, and say okay you clean up our mess if you don't like it! Very classy! :rolleyes:

There is no doubt it would be a huge challenge, but people who truly love animals (not the phoneys putting saddles on their back), would find a solution eventually.



They never stopped being an animal, with feelings and emotions etc...

You think because you bred them for a specific task, that this means they are your creation? They are not your creation... you merely slightly influenced their very recent evolution. They belong to the world... the natural world.



I never said anything about thoroughbreds in my OP. You must be addressing this to someone else.

But yes, keeping horses for your own racing and gambling entertainment, is slavery... just because they're well kept and well treated, doesn't make them any less of a slave!



Yes, because of course you can prove conclusively that horses love being saddled up and being your slave and your entertainment.

I bet you think you know the mind of a horse too... you know what they want, but it's actually mostly based on what YOU want. Selfish people can convince themselves of almost anything!



Why not?

We leave other animals alone, to enjoy their life... why would we apply a different standard to a horse?

Have you ever seen horses running in the wild? It's a beautiful thing... sadly really very rare these days. But who knows, perhaps it might be more commonplace in the future!

It's an interesting insight when someone so clueless offers an opinion. It's like me telling people about love island. I know nothing about it, but apparently that's not in your criteria for knowledge.

Bowlardo

Horse are very well looked after.
Day Out at the races is a good day out
I’d only gamble in the grand national and wouldn’t have a clue about horses after that.
There should 100% be a tax on all bets.
The gambling adverts should be banned from radio and television.
It is a horrendous addiction and a woeful vice.
Lots of youngster heavily in to it.

Muahahaha

Strumms wrote: »

As an industry they employ a lot of people and it’s worth over a year a lot to the Irish economy. According to an article in the examiner back in 2017 the horse racing industry is worth over 1.8 billion euro to the Irish economy...

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/racing-industry-worth-over-18bn-to-economy-report-458568.html

The old jobs, jobs, jobs canard needs to be examined in further detail. Yes they employ alot of people but most of them are basically exploited young stablehands who are classed as agricultural workers and therefore do not have the same working rights as someone stacking shelves in a supermarket. They dont get minimum wage and they are forced to work way more than the legal 48 hours per week standard that all other employees in Ireland do.

They live in on the studs and some of them are expected to actually sleep in the stables above the horses they are tending to. 70 and 80 hour weeks are common for what is basically modern slave labour. They do this in the 'hope' of becoming a jockey but the vast majority never make it and are chewed up and spat out by the industry when deemed to be of no use and replaced by another bunch of kids. The phenomenon of the aspiring jockey turning into an alcoholic and gambling addict is a very real one- go into any pub near studs and racecourses in Kildare and you'll see them, small lads in their 30s and 40s who are completely broken men. Suicide amongst this group is more common than many would like to admit.

Deleted User wrote: »

There’s no evidence that any Irish Cheltenham racegoers brought the virus back with them.

Not yet but expect it to emerge. We already know that a barman and waiter working in Chameleon had it and they served thousands of people over the four days. They complained of the symptoms to their managers but were told to continue on working.

nelly17

Muahahaha wrote: »

The old jobs, jobs, jobs canard needs to be examined in further detail. Yes they employ alot of people but most of them are basically exploited young stablehands who are classed as agricultural workers and therefore do not have the same working rights as someone stacking shelves in a supermarket. They dont get minimum wage and they are forced to work way more than the legal 48 hours per week standard that all other employees in Ireland do.

They live in on the studs and some of them are expected to actually sleep in the stables above the horses they are tending to. 70 and 80 hour weeks are common for what is basically modern slave labour. They do this in the 'hope' of becoming a jockey but the vast majority never make it and are chewed up and spat out by the industry when deemed to be of no use and replaced by another bunch of kids. The phenomenon of the aspiring jockey turning into an alcoholic and gambling addict is a very real one- go into any pub near studs and racecourses in Kildare and you'll see them, small lads in their 30s and 40s who are completely broken men. Suicide amongst this group is more common than many would like to admit.




Not yet but expect it to emerge. We already know that a barman and waiter working in Chameleon had it and they served thousands of people over the four days. They complained of the symptoms to their managers but were told to continue on working.

Not to mention the largely pervasive cash in hand element that tends to be involved with stable staff - do they really contribute that much to the economy?

Muahahaha

Muahahaha wrote: »

The old jobs, jobs, jobs canard needs to be examined in further detail. Yes they employ alot of people but most of them are basically exploited young stablehands who are classed as agricultural workers and therefore do not have the same working rights as someone stacking shelves in a supermarket. They dont get minimum wage and they are forced to work way more than the legal 48 hours per week standard that all other employees in Ireland do.

They live in on the studs and some of them are expected to actually sleep in the stables above the horses they are tending to. 70 and 80 hour weeks are common for what is basically modern slave labour. They do this in the 'hope' of becoming a jockey but the vast majority never make it and are chewed up and spat out by the industry when deemed to be of no use and replaced by another bunch of kids. The phenomenon of the aspiring jockey turning into an alcoholic and gambling addict is a very real one- go into any pub near studs and racecourses in Kildare and you'll see them, small lads in their 30s and 40s who are completely broken men. Suicide amongst this group is more common than many would like to admit.




Not yet but expect it to emerge. We already know that a barman and waiter working in Chameleon had it and they served thousands of people over the four days. They complained of the symptoms to their managers but were told to continue on working.

What a lot of rot. Have you any actual proof of your claims?

As for Cheltenham, it finished 18 days ago. If people were infected, they’d have shown symptoms by now and probably have recovered. We’re those two workers ever shown to actually have the virus?

Fann Linn

nelly17 wrote: »

Not to mention the largely pervasive cash in hand element that tends to be involved with stable staff - do they really contribute that much to the economy?

Any links? Did you tell revenue?

Edgware

Bowlardo wrote: »

Horse are very well looked after.
Day Out at the races is a good day out
I’d only gamble in the grand national and wouldn’t have a clue about horses after that.
There should 100% be a tax on all bets.
The gambling adverts should be banned from radio and television.
It is a horrendous addiction and a woeful vice.
Lots of youngster heavily in to it.

Lots of young people like speeding in fast cars. Lets stop people under 30 from driving cars.

Muahahaha

Deleted User wrote: »

What a lot of rot. Have you any actual proof of your claims?

As for Cheltenham, it finished 18 days ago. If people were infected, they’d have shown symptoms by now and probably have recovered. We’re those two workers ever shown to actually have the virus?

jaysis you must be pretty clueless if you dont know how hard stablehands have it. Have a read of this article, its only the tip of the iceberg of what goes on behind the closed doors of these studs

At the time, O'Brien the elder was busy challenging a Workplace Relations Commission ruling against his Ballydoyle stable which said that employees worked 19-hour days and 28 days on the bounce. His retort wasn't that they didn't, rather it was an insight into the mindset. He argued training racehorses is exempt from working-hour rules because it is classed as an agricultural enterprise; Robbie Manton, head of the yard, talked of a telepathic bond with animals meaning it was hard for staff to stay away; Clem Murphy, the bloodstock consultant added, "They can have a rest, read a book, lie down [in the bunks in horseboxes]. There's plenty of downtime".

Racing had long traded on such attitudes and excuses. Somehow it still does.

Back in November that Ballydoyle appeal may have failed but all along there were those that were far too important with far too much at stake. It's a year since Minister for Agriculture, Fine Gael's Michael Creed, pushed on regardless for horse racing to be exempt from such workplace legislation around stable staff, and according to insiders the level of lobbying grew and then grew some more. Eventually, such was the weight and the pressure, that in December it led his party colleague, Minister for Employment Regina Doherty, to hand the industry right back its agricultural rights.

While self-pronounced as the sport of kings, that implies it's built on serfs in a modern-day hangover from the feudal system. Little wonder. Manton himself has previously admitted that the day at Ballydoyle starts at 5am and could finish up at 1am. This in a yard that's as good as it gets with Seamus Power, a former TD who is president of the Irish Stable Staff Association (ISSA), telling me as that case unfolded that "no one leaves, it's where everyone wants to work". Others spoken to agreed, with the ISSA confirming they "only ever had one complaint from there that had nothing to do with hours or pay". As one worker says though, "They're the big boys and still don't use relief or weekend staff. Imagine the small boys. Working rules are broken all over".

It's about two years now since Clare Daly's office finished looking into all of this. In a report they noted that the ISSA is a private company rather than a trade union - receiving €100,000 from Horse Racing Ireland who get €64m from the taxpayer.

Those in the Independent TD's office also found that in an area that talks of 10,000 being employed, 2,328 were registered showing up the black market. They found of the tiny percentage of prize money allotted to stable staff, 1.7 per cent is taken by the turf club who have strong powers in areas such as animal welfare but no powers in the welfare of stable staff. They found the pension fund in place will add up to €3 a week after 10 years service, and €22 after 40 years of service. They found expenses often don't match guidelines.

Yet inspections on yards have been few and far between. There were no more than nine per annum between 2011 and 2016, with just two last year. Granted, by the time of their report in 2017, 70 had taken place with leaked data crucially hinting at more than 20 minimum wage issues and 57 per cent contravening employment legislation. This despite some yards inexplicably being given more than a month's forewarning around inspections and their timing.

Given that, if you want horror tales as the anecdotal behind the empirical, they aren't hard to unearth.

One leading trainer during end-of-day inspections expects a plat made of bedding straw, that takes about 30 minutes to complete, to be hung from each stable door. "It's to show who's in charge," says a source who knows well what seems punishment more than procedure. "He tears them apart to make sure you can't use it again the next day." Another trainer expects staff to show to church on Sunday mornings off as if they didn't, "you best not show on Monday".

That's not to say there isn't the flip-side on occasion. The likes of Enda Bolger is known to come in early on Sunday in order to pitch in and get his staff out early for a pint but he's an exception. As for the rule, if those above tales are extreme, there's a more common trend of basic exploitation too.

"It's not just racing either," says a former stable worker who got out to become a farrier. "There is one prominent show-jumper - and this isn't uncommon in any equine field - and his staff start at six, get 20 minutes of a break where food is bought in for them as if to say this makes it okay, finish at 11 that night, and head up to a room above the stable with mold on the walls and a stink in the place before starting at six again. Lads at the bottom, they might have a claim, they want to be jockeys for instance. They are told that if you do this and then you do that, you'll get this ride but they don't. Next thing they're in their 40s, alcoholics, still chasing the dream."

This person concluded: "That's what the industry runs on. It'll never change." Certainly not with the law remaining on the side of elitism and wealth, the sort built on poverty and exploitation in a real sense if not anymore a legal sense. Yet with that attitude not so much as hidden, it's as backwards as arrogant that it's a business that claims it cannot afford change. This despite government handouts, the money from the betting companies, the number of multi-millionaires involved.

During the Ballydoyle case, champion trainer Michael Hourigan suggested racing would be crippled without agricultural status. The Limerick man, who runs a yard where wages average around €400 a week, said he often worked 24 hours through. But if your boss ran a business that was hard up, does that mean you should be exploited? Holding onto the past is great if not at someone else's cost. Besides, it's not like racing doesn't have the money, it's just that its model is such that with most staying on high, they expect to be able to avoid the consequences of not adhering to workers' rights.

The government backs that model.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/horse-racing/ewan-mackenna-the-sport-of-kings-built-on-elitism-and-wealth-but-why-does-it-come-at-a-cost-for-staff-37839298.html

Stable staff sleeping in stinky stables alongside the horses? Check
57% of yards audited breaking employment legislation? Check
2,238 of 10k workers working in black market for cash in hand? Check
Exploitation with 19 hour days for 28 days in a row? Check
A pension fund of 3 euro a week after ten years service? Check
Owners who treat their staff like sh1t? Check

Its all there for you Maryanne. But as you've been told often enough on this website 'There are none so blind as those who refuse to see'.

So now where's your proof that the horse racing industry is such a lovely place to work? I await with baited breath because all the evidence shows the complete opposite.

Fann Linn

Muahahaha wrote: »

jaysis you must be pretty clueless if you dont know how hard stablehands have it. Have a read of this article, its only the tip of the iceberg of what goes on behind the closed doors of these studs


https://www.independent.ie/sport/horse-racing/ewan-mackenna-the-sport-of-kings-built-on-elitism-and-wealth-but-why-does-it-come-at-a-cost-for-staff-37839298.html

Stable staff sleeping in stinky stables? Check
57% of yard audited breaking working legislation? Check
2,238 of 10k workers working the black market doing cash for hand? Check
Exploitation with 19 hour days for 28 days in a row? Check
Owners who treat their staff like sh1t? Check

Its all there for you Maryanne. But as you've been told often enough on this website 'There are none so blind as those who refuse to see'.

So now where's your proof that the horse racing industry is such a lovely place to work? I await with baited breath because all the evidence shows the complete opposite.

My daughter is a stable hand/exercise rider. Not too far in fact from that yard. However she has been treated great. Pays all her taxes/USC prsi and she gets her b/h money, share of race winnings and has been all over the world.

Agreed, there are scum employers, but again they are everywhere, but the legislation is there to deal with it. Very unfair to tar all with the one brush.

Muahahaha

Muahahaha wrote: »

jaysis you must be pretty clueless if you dont know how hard stablehands have it. Have a read of this article, its only the tip of the iceberg of what goes on behind the closed doors of these studs


https://www.independent.ie/sport/horse-racing/ewan-mackenna-the-sport-of-kings-built-on-elitism-and-wealth-but-why-does-it-come-at-a-cost-for-staff-37839298.html

Stable staff sleeping in stinky stables alongside the horses? Check
57% of yards audited breaking employment legislation? Check
2,238 of 10k workers working in black market for cash in hand? Check
Exploitation with 19 hour days for 28 days in a row? Check
A pension fund of 3 euro a week after ten years service? Check
Owners who treat their staff like sh1t? Check

Its all there for you Maryanne. But as you've been told often enough on this website 'There are none so blind as those who refuse to see'.

So now where's your proof that the horse racing industry is such a lovely place to work? I await with baited breath because all the evidence shows the complete opposite.

If it’s such an awful place to work, why stay? There are bad eggs in every industry.

Any figures for people who attended Cheltenham having the virus?

Outlaw Pete

suicide_circus wrote: »

lol all the sick gamblers scrambling to defend the sport of kings

Sick gamblers?? I'd be one for regularly placing money on the horseracing but that doesn't mean I'm addicted to it for heaven sake. The horseracing has been off for a good while now and will likely be for the foreseeable, and until it does return I know I'll not gamble on anything else. I'll bet you a hundred euro I won't.

ILoveYourVibes

Montage of Feck wrote: »

From the toff's flaunting their conspicuous consumption to the ethnic minorities flaunting animal cruelty and road laws, the whole thing reeks of self entitlement and arrogance.
The current Cheltenham festival being an example of this arrogance. I have no doubt that it will be proven to be a major cause of the Corona virus spread here.
Then of course there's numerous moral issues from gambling to animal cruelty.

I agree with you on Cheltenham this year it was a disgrace.

Toffs have to exist somewhere what are you going to do?

Gambling ...no one forces people to gamble ...you could shut down the gambling industry and leave the racing.

I mean we have other equestrian sports too ..i think racing would be fine. Probably get rid of a lot of people who shouldn't be near racing.

You have dressage showjumping eventing etc ...nothing to do with gambling there.

ILoveYourVibes

Muahahaha wrote: »

Stable staff sleeping in stinky stables alongside the horses? Check
57% of yards audited breaking employment legislation? Check
2,238 of 10k workers working in black market for cash in hand? Check
Exploitation with 19 hour days for 28 days in a row? Check
A pension fund of 3 euro a week after ten years service? Check
Owners who treat their staff like sh1t? Check

Its all there for you Maryanne. But as you've been told often enough on this website 'There are none so blind as those who refuse to see'.

So now where's your proof that the horse racing industry is such a lovely place to work? I await with baited breath because all the evidence shows the complete opposite.

I've been a stable hand ...although not in a racing yard. It was riding school in france that had a stud farm and they bred TBs. Also in two riding schools in Ireland.

And yes sometimes they sleep in the stables...but they do have rooms ...its just sometimes you might want to keep an eye on something on a stud farm. But its rarer now as you can use cameras etc.

I was never treated like ****.

19 hr days ?? Nope.

ILoveYourVibes

Deleted User wrote: »

If it’s such an awful place to work, why stay? There are bad eggs in every industry.

Any figures for people who attended Cheltenham having the virus?

At least one got it after returning from a weekend in cheltenham. He actually was a healthworker for the hse and worked a full shift in a hospital after coming back and feeling symptoms...he felt 'ah im fine im young'

He tested positive 24 hrs later. He was from Galway.

Worked a whole FULL shift in a hospital.

I agree its totally wrong that festival went ahead this year.

You would expect more from a healthworker in a hospital tbh.

ILoveYourVibes

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

A horse doesn't want you or your stupid saddle on their back!

I don't care how many people try to tell me otherwise, no animal wants to be used by you as a mode of transport or a fun play thing to be exploited.

They are powerful but gentle animals... so they can and do endure a lot of punishment.

Anyone who says they love horses, but then puts a saddle on them and jumps up on their back... you are a hypocrite and phoney!

How do you know if you have never tried it?

And wouldn't it be more sensible to think people who spend their entire day around horses and have spent years studying them might know more about horses than you?

And they are not always gentle. In fact if you watch them in the field with each other they can be quite rough in their play. It can be a sign of something being wrong if they aren't.

Horses play with each other every day ..its fast and its often rough. They large with bigger bones and take the damage from a horse kick. Its play fighting for them.

How would YOU feel after being kicked by a horse? Horses get kicked by each other like we play football.

auspicious

Didn't Davy Russell punch one in the back of the head?!

Muahahaha

Fann Linn wrote: »

My daughter is a stable hand/exercise rider. Not too far in fact from that yard. However she has been treated great. Pays all her taxes/USC prsi and she gets her b/h money, share of race winnings and has been all over the world.

Agreed, there are scum employers, but again they are everywhere, but the legislation is there to deal with it. Very unfair to tar all with the one brush.

Thats great and everything but will respect it is only anecdotal. The article states that of 60 yards audits 57% of them were in breach of employment legilation and almost 25% of staff were working in the black economy of top of that. Thats all aside from stable hands having to work 19 hour days for 28 days straight, slaves in America didnt work as hard as that.

Deleted User wrote: »

If it’s such an awful place to work, why stay? There are bad eggs in every industry.

Any figures for people who attended Cheltenham having the virus?

As expected from you Maryanne, 'just a few bad eggs' :rolleyes: Like I said there are none so blind as those who refuse to see. You said there was nothing wrong in the horse racing industry and now you've been provided with a wall of evidence to show that you are wrong. But all you've got in response is 'just a few bad eggs' :rolleyes: Lord give us patience....

As for Cheltenham, as I said you'd want to be some idiot to argue that 60,000 or 70,000 punters mixing closely when a very contagious virus is doing the rounds is not going to infect anyone. Is that really your argument? In any case ILoveYourVibes has said a hospital worker was infected over there, perhaps she'll provide a link. But one thing is for certain- people were infected in Cheltenham just the way they were infected in northern Italy too.

ILoveYourVibes

auspicious wrote: »

Didn't Davy Russell punch one in the back of the head?!

I think you are correct. Obviously not on.

However ...don't know if i should say this ..

I used to date a guy ...who trained horses .....he had this one really asshole horse ...and one day after being thrown many times ...my ex lost it and in frustration punched the horse in the face. From that moment on ..the horse behaved well and totally respected him. He was a good trainer too.

I am not condoning it . If i had seen him doing it i would have stopped him.

Obviously he still shouldn't have done it. Its not necessary. There are better ways to get a horse to respect you.

Times move on. Or they should.

I have never been one to be heavy handed with horses.

But that horse was one of the worst my ex ever worked with ...threw everyone. Not to be recommended kids ..even with asshole horses.

ILoveYourVibes

Muahahaha wrote: »

As expected from you Maryanne, 'just a few bad eggs' :rolleyes: Like I said there are none so blind as those who refuse to see. .

Dude i worked in stud farm that bred horses for the french racing industry...i was taught to ride sometimes by ex jockeys and the sister of an ex jockey ..they work in every riding school ..livery yard ...stud farm in the country...nearly all of them have an ex jockey.

I went out on a regular hack up in carrickmines that was led by ex jockey. In fairness he was mental and had us galloping down hill...but he was a good guy.

I know an equine vet who works in the industry...in fairness he is a dick and i don't like him right now..but he loves animals ..just hates humans.

Its not the way you think.

There are some issues that need to be improved on. The age at which horses are backed ...the way some companies race to invent new drugs that haven't been banned yet..these are borderline supplements borderline drugs and

ILoveYourVibes

Muahahaha wrote: »

As expected from you Maryanne, 'just a few bad eggs' :rolleyes: Like I said there are none so blind as those who refuse to see. .

Dude i worked in stud farm that bred horses for the french racing industry...i was taught to ride sometimes by ex jockeys and the sister of an ex jockey ..they work in every riding school ..livery yard ...stud farm in the country...nearly all of them have an ex jockey.

I went out on a regular hack up in carrickmines that was led by ex jockey. In fairness he was mental and had us galloping down hill...but he was a good guy.

I know an equine vet who works in the industry...in fairness he is a dick and i don't like him right now..but he loves animals ..just hates humans.

Its not the way you think.

There are some issues that need to be improved on. The age at which horses are backed ...the way some companies race to invent new drugs that haven't been banned yet..these are borderline supplements borderline drugs. Some will be banned after a while ..some won't.

auspicious

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I think you are correct. Obviously not on.

However ...don't know if i should say this ..

I used to date a guy ...who trained horses .....he had this one really asshole horse ...and one day after being thrown many times ...my ex lost it and in frustration punched the horse in the face. From that moment on ..the horse behaved well and totally respected him. He was a good trainer too.

I am not condoning it . If i had seen him doing it i would have stopped him.

Obviously he still shouldn't have done it. Its not necessary. There are better ways to get a horse to respect you.

Times move on. Or they should.

I have never been one to be heavy handed with horses.

But that horse was one of the worst my ex ever worked with ...threw everyone. Not to be recommended kids ..even with asshole horses.

Think I'm correct? No I'm definitely correct. Video there through Google.

If a child was punched in the face for misbehaving I certainty don't think they'd respect you in an admiring way. It would be more out of pain and fear.

ILoveYourVibes

auspicious wrote: »

Think I'm correct? No I'm definitely correct. Video there through Google.

If a child was punched in the face for misbehaving I certainty don't think they'd respect you in an admiring way. It would be more out of pain and fear.

I know ...that's why i said ..i think you are correct.

He didn't punch a foal ..he punched an adult horse.

If had punched a foal ...that would have been different they are much more physically fragile. In fact most lay people don't realize how fragile.

You shouldn't compare an adult horse to a child.

And yes the horse did respect my ex after the incident in an admiring way. Would always go up to him in the field ...never had to be caught.

I was kind of jealous actually ...same horse didn't like me at all ....and i was the sweet one!

auspicious

I think you need your head checked.

ILoveYourVibes

auspicious wrote: »

I think you need your head checked.

How long have you worked with horses?

Randy Archer

6 wrote: »

Their funding should be slashed. Give it to proper sports where kids can actually get fit and improve their health.

Let the gambling industry fund them.

And watch many rural areas die on their arses even further as the equine industry slows down . That’s a lot of Skilled (vets ) and unskilled kids without much jobs ...oh well, here’s hoping they get a job on the construction site in the towns, eh

You clearly have no clue as to the kind of money that comes into Roscommon and Kilbeggan and Killarney town during the summer months due to racing. Towns of Kildare and Nass would be nothing ,likewise many towns in Tipperary . Galway City more or less centres it’s entire year on one week at the beginning of August and no, it ain’t for the Arts festival (which is great ) Unless you follow Dundalk FC, there ain’t much happening open Dundalk on a Friday night during the winter . All BEFORE a bet is laid down , which as you should know, you don’t need to be at the course to lay one down due to the Internet

Hotels, bars ,agriculture businesses ,employment ........ all rely on the race course

No other sport does that ,not even the GAA which brings much colour to provincial towns who have big stadiums once or maybe twice a year. Rugby lads travel and spend the entire weekend in Dublin but that’s no more than 3 times in February March depending on how the fixture list goes

By the way, you are off your rocker of you think the bookies actually contribute even a quarter of to their proceeds To racing . And the same time the bookies simply aren’t making most of their money from racing at all. !betting Football has taken over And many shops rely on slot machines .

There’s a lot of take from the bookies than there is give, and the racing authorities are always looking to Other corporations to sponsor their races, near in mind too the limitations that there are in being allowed to be sponsored by booze and cigarettes companies due to the nanny states in Britain and Ireland .

You have a perverse and grossly ill informed notion as to the fitness levels of professional racehorse jockeys .

auspicious

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

How long have you worked with horses?

You've shown your colours.
They're bred for profit and if they don't comply you grind them down until they submit out of fear.
Might makes right eh.

ILoveYourVibes

auspicious wrote: »

You've shown your colours.
They're bred for profit and if they don't comply you grind them down until they submit out of fear.
Might makes right eh.

So that is a never then?

No ...I would be the total opposite of what you just described.

Look i could tell from your first post you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

People with no clue about horses are more of a danger to them then anyone in my experience.

auspicious

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

So that is a never then?

No ...I would be the total opposite of what you just described.

Look i could tell from your first post you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

People with no clue about horses are more of a danger to them then anyone in my experience.

What are you on about.
Our conversation is over.

Huntergonzo

Muahahaha wrote: »

Thats great and everything but will respect it is only anecdotal. The article states that of 60 yards audits 57% of them were in breach of employment legilation and almost 25% of staff were working in the black economy of top of that. Thats all aside from stable hands having to work 19 hour days for 28 days straight, slaves in America didnt work as hard as that.

It's a tough business to be in and it's a tough business to survive, plenty of people dream big when they start off but only a very select few will make it, that's the reality.

As for breaking employment regulation, 57% doesn't look great but assuming it's the truth what's the breakdown? Employment law is presumably quite extensive, it'd be nice to see a detailed breakdown of the areas concerned.

Anyway look, I never worked on a stud farm but I grew up on a dairy farm and there wasn't much regard paid to employment legislation there let me tell you. The days could be long (even longer during calving season), they could be tough and the pay was nothing spectacular.

But I loved it, some of the best memories I have were made on the farm, I'm sure the same is true for many working in stables. It's not the sort of job people stumble into, it's often a labour of love and yes sometimes that's taken advantage of but unfortunately you'll get that in every walk of life.

Ps to compare stable hands to slaves in America is very disrespectful to people who actually were bought and sold. You might want to re-think that one.

ILoveYourVibes

auspicious wrote: »

What are you on about.
Our conversation is over.

You are talking about something you clearly have never been around nor any actual knowledge or experience of.

What are YOU on about?

That conversation is over thing only works in movies in reality the conversation continues without you. And its shaped by the people still left.

And honestly if what you know about horses is from reading black beauty the conversation is better without you.

Gamb!t

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I think you are correct. Obviously not on.

However ...don't know if i should say this ..

I used to date a guy ...who trained horses .....he had this one really asshole horse ...and one day after being thrown many times ...my ex lost it and in frustration punched the horse in the face. From that moment on ..the horse behaved well and totally respected him. He was a good trainer too.

I am not condoning it . If i had seen him doing it i would have stopped him.

Obviously he still shouldn't have done it. Its not necessary. There are better ways to get a horse to respect you.

Times move on. Or they should.


I have never been one to be heavy handed with horses.

But that horse was one of the worst my ex ever worked with ...threw everyone. Not to be recommended kids ..even with asshole horses.

Should have called Tom Booker

Muahahaha

Huntergonzo wrote: »

It's a tough business to be in and it's a tough business to survive, plenty of people dream big when they start off but only a very select few will make it, that's the reality.

As for breaking employment regulation, 57% doesn't look great but assuming it's the truth what's the breakdown? Employment law is presumably quite extensive, it'd be nice to see a detailed breakdown of the areas concerned.

Anyway look, I never worked on a stud farm but I grew up on a dairy farm and there wasn't much regard paid to employment legislation there let me tell you. The days could be long (even longer during calving season), they could be tough and the pay was nothing spectacular.

But I loved it, some of the best memories I have were made on the farm, I'm sure the same is true for many working in stables. It's not the sort of job people stumble into, it's often a labour of love and yes sometimes that's taken advantage of but unfortunately you'll get that in every walk of life.

Ps to compare stable hands to slaves in America is very disrespectful to people who actually were bought and sold. You might want to re-think that one.

Thats the problem, these workers are classified as 'agricultural workers' and therefore normal employment laws and rights do not apply to them so they get exploited. Theres no other way of putting it. Like how could any industry defend giving someone who worked for their balls off for a decade a weekly pension of 3 euro a week? Its like some sort of sick joke, multi millionaires and billionaires throwing hard working staff 3 euro a week as a pension. Its actually disgusting, some of the wealthiest people in Ireland paying the worst wages in Ireland.

re:slaves- Im making the point that even slaves werent working 19 hours a day, when the sun went down their working day was over. Stablehands in the year 2020 are working 19 hours a day. They are barely getting 3 euros an hour for the work they do, all the while the minimum wage (which they are not entitled to remember) is 10.15 an hour and the living wage is 12 euro an hour.

Huntergonzo

Muahahaha wrote: »

Thats the problem, these workers are classified as 'agricultural workers' and therefore normal employment laws and rights do not apply to them so they get exploited. Theres no other way of putting it. Like how could any industry defend giving someone who worked for their balls off for a decade a weekly pension of 3 euro a week? Its like some sort of sick joke, multi millionaires and billionaires throwing hard working staff 3 euro a week as a pension. Its actually disgusting, some of the wealthiest people in Ireland paying the worst wages in Ireland.

re:slaves- Im making the point that even slaves werent working 19 hours a day, when the sun went down their working day was over. Stablehands in the year 2020 are working 19 hours a day. They are barely getting 3 euros an hour for the work they do, all the while the minimum wage (which they are not entitled to remember) is 10.15 an hour and the living wage is 12 euro an hour.

Not exactly sure how many hours slaves were made work, I'm presume that varied greatly depending on who owned them.

€3 an hour is poor if it's true, but at least you can walk away from it. The same can't be said for slaves sold to a cotton plantation owners who ran the risk of having their heads blown off for daring to escape their lives of servitude.

I mean the fact that you doubled down on that ridiculous comparison rather than retracted it is quite telling, you obviously have a deep rooted hatred for the horse racing industry. I just hope it comes from genuine knowledge and experience of the industry and I hope your hatred serves you well going forward.

Night nighty, I hope you dream of the Grand National :-)

ILoveYourVibes

Muahahaha wrote: »

. Stablehands in the year 2020 are working 19 hours a day..

No they aren't

The day is different to yours. Its very early ....true ...but it winds down earlier....or has large breaks when nothing much is happening.

Yes you might be up at 6 ...and have to check something at 9 ..but it usually winds down about 5/4 and you have a long break in the middle.

auspicious

I could dump links all night. The sickening standards simply cannot be justified and anyone defending the industry is deluded.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/sport/more-than-meets-the-eye-when-it-comes-to-animal-cruelty-1.3949383%3fmode=amp

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.her.ie/amp/news/e278k-racehorse-found-starving-in-cork-by-animal-charity-463909&ved=2ahUKEwiQlfjT4sXoAhXMXhUIHYHuDFUQFjADegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw1HDH-vemz87yi_KdgLKRm7&ampcf=1&cshid=1585694468939

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/35-emaciated-racehorses-rescued-by-gardai-as-animal-cruelty-investigation-is-launched-38305296.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/over-120-horses-have-died-on-irish-racecourses-so-far-this-year-4911230-Nov2019/%3famp=1

ILoveYourVibes

auspicious wrote: »

I could dump links all night. The sicking standards simply cannot be justified and anyone defending the industry are deluded.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/sport/more-than-meets-the-eye-when-it-comes-to-animal-cruelty-1.3949383%3fmode=amp

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.her.ie/amp/news/e278k-racehorse-found-starving-in-cork-by-animal-charity-463909&ved=2ahUKEwiQlfjT4sXoAhXMXhUIHYHuDFUQFjADegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw1HDH-vemz87yi_KdgLKRm7&ampcf=1&cshid=1585694468939

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/35-emaciated-racehorses-rescued-by-gardai-as-animal-cruelty-investigation-is-launched-38305296.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/over-120-horses-have-died-on-irish-racecourses-so-far-this-year-4911230-Nov2019/%3famp=1

But have you ever worked in it?

You should logically think I am lying. If i have worked on a stud farm and around jockeys I would have to believe what you say.

So it would make more sense for you to think i was lying.

As it goes i know you are deluded.

Its like you are describing a country you have never lived in from newspapers.

Muahahaha

Huntergonzo wrote: »

Not exactly sure how many hours slaves were made work, I'm presume that varied greatly depending on who owned them.

€3 an hour is poor if it's true, but at least you can walk away from it. The same can't be said for slaves sold to a cotton plantation owners who ran the risk of having their heads blown off for daring to escape their lives of servitude.

I mean the fact that you doubled down on that ridiculous comparison rather than retracted it is quite telling, you obviously have a deep rooted hatred for the horse racing industry. I just hope it comes from genuine knowledge and experience of the industry and I hope your hatred serves you well going forward.

Night nighty, I hope you dream of the Grand National :-)

sorry you've missed the point for the second time, not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse so I'll explain it again. Slaves in America worked dawn to dusk, this is documented in history books. That is nowhere even near the 19 hours a day that some stable hands are doing in Ireland in 2020. Thats all my point is, nothing more, nothing less. So please dont try to put words in my mouth, the comparison is on hours worked per day and nothing else.

As for my supposed "hatred of the horse racing industry". yet another attempt to put words in my mouth. Where did I ever say this? Does criticising a sport mean you must hate it? Theres lots of things I dont like in football and rugby, does saying so mean you hate it? Im fine with horse racing, just not fine with exploitation by multi millionaires and billionaires paying their staff 3 euro a week of a pension. Are you okay with that?

ILoveYourVibes

Muahahaha wrote: »

Did you even read the article?

What do you mean have I read the article? I have lived it!

Its like saying have you read the article about Italy to someone who lived there for 4 yrs?

Muahahaha

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

No they aren't

The day is different to yours. Its very early ....true ...but it winds down earlier....or has large breaks when nothing much is happening.

Yes you might be up at 6 ...and have to check something at 9 ..but it usually winds down about 5/4 and you have a long break in the middle.

Did you even read the article?

At the time, O'Brien the elder was busy challenging a Workplace Relations Commission ruling against his Ballydoyle stable which said that employees worked 19-hour days and 28 days on the bounce. His retort wasn't that they didn't, rather it was an insight into the mindset

There you have it, Aiden o'Brien, one of the most decorated horse trainers in Ireland admits the claim that his stablehands work 19 hours a day for 28 days straight.

To put that into perspective an employee in Ireland is limited to 48 hours per week. Over 4 weeks that is a maximum of 192 hours that they are legally allowed to work. But go to Aiden o'Briens yard and suddenly because they are 'agricultual workers' all employment law is out the window and o'Brien is working them up to 532 hours over four weeks. If thats not modern slave labour I dont know what is.

ILoveYourVibes

Muahahaha wrote: »

Did you even read the article?






.

There you have it, Aiden o'Brien, one of the most decorated horse trainers in Ireland admits the claim that his stablehands work 19 hours a day for 28 days straight.

He's talking ****e. They do in their hole.