Garda Checks

Mortelaro

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

You so obviously don't.

If the Gardai cannot dictate the shop then they CAN'T use discretion. It doesn't come into play.

Discretion can only be applied when your are deciding how to deal with a breach of the law. Your claim is that no breach occurred and then no discretion possible.

I would agree that you can choose between reasonable equal destinations but again, I'm not the one suggesting no power exists.

You are going from one to the other on this. Either there's limits and Gardai using discretion or there's no limits. Make up your mind which it is

Gardai do not have the authority to tell you which shop to do your essential shopping in if its within the same town
If you are driving into another town, you can and should be sent home
Ditto for taking the dart from blackrock into city centre etc
Doing things like that is taking the p1ss

Supercell

Supercell wrote: »

On the whole 2km restriction thing, the 2km limit according to the government guide lines is for exercise and non essential travel.
However, it does say this doesnt apply to essential services (such as supermarkets) and here is where the discretion needs to come in - if I choose to shop in the nearest Aldi or Aidl because it saves me hundreds on the weekly shop over Tesco or Dunnes then shouldn't I have that choice? Assuming its not taking the proverbial piss and travelling to Donegal or Kerry from Dublin and claiming this.
I do think the Gardai need to appreciate that price does matters to families doing their weekly shop now probably more than ever. Whats people thoughts on this?

Saves hundreds on a weekly shop? Do you go shopping in a lorry?

PCeeeee

PCeeeee wrote: »

'you are stating that a person can travel from Dublin to Donegal to shop because Gardai can't dictate what shop'

I most certainly am not. I am pointing out that a limit has not been put on distance one can travel to shop for essential items.

'I would be confident that the judge would agree with me for that reason'

I would be abolutely confident that a judge would agree with you that travel from Donegal to Dublin to shop is non essential. Again, that is your strawman and not a position I am taking.

There is a large element of discretion involved in policing the new rules as it is almost impossible to draft legislation to cover every situation. It, for now relies on a bit of common sense from both the public and the Gardai. I agree with you that their has to be some limit as the piss would certainly be taken otherwise. But frankly you're taking a view of the opposite extreme which (IMO) was not the intention of the legislators either.

Oh absolutely not. I completely agree that common sense and understanding fits. It's Kaiser that's opposed to that.

My argument is that as there's no set limit then it comes down to a series of decisions

A, from to where
B, reason for the journey
C, distance of journey
D, reasonable alternatives available
E, difference between c and d in the event of using discretion.

You agree that 50km is a piss take. I actually agree the a small additional distance is acceptable using common sense and discretion even if it is just down to personal shopping tastes.

The Crux of my argument remains that the Garda in the scenario was within his legal rights to turn the person around had he decided to. The officer, correctly in my opinion, did not but instead made a suggestion that maybe the op should go to his actual local shop in future. The op and others then got outraged and said that the Gardai have no power to do so.

It's not about common sense or discretion, my argument is only that actually, the Gardai do have that power in law. We can, legally turn you around if you are just choosing to travel a greater distance than needed.

We need to establish that there's a difference between what the law states and what discretion Gardai have. They aren't the same.

nthclare

The guard's in Clare are out more at weekends and covering the road's leading to the beaches,lake's and road's going to the Burren/Cliff's of Mother etc

We seem to be behaving ourselves, and staying put.

There's no point in going to the hot spots, I'd say even if you you went to Fr Ted's house the goats would have a road block put up....

Supercell

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Saves hundreds on a weekly shop? Do you go shopping in a lorry?

Over a month it does, thought that was obvious.

Niner leprauchan

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

You so obviously don't.

If the Gardai cannot dictate the shop then they CAN'T use discretion. It doesn't come into play.

Discretion can only be applied when your are deciding how to deal with a breach of the law. Your claim is that no breach occurred and then no discretion possible.

I would agree that you can choose between reasonable equal destinations but again, I'm not the one suggesting no power exists.

You are going from one to the other on this. Either there's limits and Gardai using discretion or there's no limits. Make up your mind which it is

Discretion does not apply to which shop the member of the public is going to.
I never suggested a Guard use discretion in this case, I said they do not have the right to dictate which shop I do my shopping in.
Contrary to your belief, I doubt very much that a Judge would suggest you are correct in turning someone back because they are going to a supermarket 1km further away then the nearest one.

Look, you know as well as I do, some guards are just assholes, because well, everyone is human.
Some guards are grand & can be having a bad day.
Some guards get things wrong occasionally, because well, everyone is human.
This whole ridiculous argument started because you defended a member, who just overstepped the mark. No need, imo.
Not all guards are right all the time.

Discodog

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

You so obviously don't.

If the Gardai cannot dictate the shop then they CAN'T use discretion. It doesn't come into play.

Discretion can only be applied when your are deciding how to deal with a breach of the law. Your claim is that no breach occurred and then no discretion possible.

I would agree that you can choose between reasonable equal destinations but again, I'm not the one suggesting no power exists.

You are going from one to the other on this. Either there's limits and Gardai using discretion or there's no limits. Make up your mind which it is

If the Gardai can't agree between themselves, as to how to implement the law, it's no wonder that we have so much confusion. This is a unique, short lived law that requires Garda discretion. Gardai should be very wary about how they use discretion. It's a huge privileged to be entrusted with so much power.

I suspect that the variation in opinion, amongst the Gardai is down to individual differences & how superiors instruct the rank & file to act. If any individual Garda sees another abusing his powers then they should report them - but I think that's very unlikely.

Mortelaro

Mortelaro wrote: »

Gardai do not have the authority to tell you which shop to do your essential shopping in if its within the same town
If you are driving into another town, you can and should be sent home
Ditto for taking the dart from blackrock into city centre etc
Doing things like that is taking the p1ss

I can't keep repeating myself. There's law, the law states essential travel only.

It doesn't Grant you a certain limit of travel without question outside of the 2km for exercise section. It doesn't state "go wherever you like on your own town but next town over is a big no no". Can you show me where it does? That's just your personal opinion on what acceptable and what's not.

You are applying common sense aka discretion to scenarios. That's not how the law itself works. The act has given that ability to the Gardai and ultimately, the courts.

Edgware

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I've no issue with following the direction of the Gardai, but telling you which Shops or which direction to go in?
That's the part i'd have issue with...
......seeing as there's almost no community Gards in Dublin, and from one end of the year to the other the only time I see a Gard around here is if there's a shooting, they won't come up for joyriders in cars or motorbikes,minor thefts or burglaries, late night house parties/anti-social behavior, no general patrols or wider community engagement by the force... none of them live in the local communities they "serve" either.

The wider issue with the Gards is they're not a part of the community and are very much outsiders that lately we only see when we're trying to go out to the shops, so i'm sure everyone understands why engagements with members at checkpoints isn't always positive or welcome.

If you had the choice would you live in an area where there are shootings, anti social behaviour, joyriding?

PCeeeee

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Oh absolutely not. I completely agree that common sense and understanding fits. It's Kaiser that's opposed to that.

My argument is that as there's no set limit then it comes down to a series of decisions

A, from to where
B, reason for the journey
C, distance of journey
D, reasonable alternatives available
E, difference between c and d in the event of using discretion.

You agree that 50km is a piss take. I actually agree the a small additional distance is acceptable using common sense and discretion even if it is just down to personal shopping tastes.

The Crux of my argument remains that the Garda in the scenario was within his legal rights to turn the person around had he decided to. The officer, correctly in my opinion, did not but instead made a suggestion that maybe the op should go to his actual local shop in future. The op and others then got outraged and said that the Gardai have no power to do so.

It's not about common sense or discretion, my argument is only that actually, the Gardai do have that power in law. We can, legally turn you around if you are just choosing to travel a greater distance than needed.

We need to establish that there's a difference between what the law states and what discretion Gardai have. They aren't the same.

Thank you niner for a considered reply, I suspect we have more in common in our view than I thought initally.

I'm not arguing the power of Gardai to 'turn around' people. It's just I feel the law was drafted to allow the Gardai to use a bit of common sense. And I hope I haven't given the impression that I don't think that most Gardai will.

Though I would nitpick with you slightly on the discretion element of role of Gardai. They have the ultimate discretion to not apply the law (as I understand it) not to make up their own. Given that the 'law' in this instance is so wooly I can see where there is confusion. Hopefully this'll all be over long before the courts have clarified it.

Now I'll leave it at that, mind yourself out there.

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

Discretion does not apply to which shop the member of the public is going to.
I never suggested a Guard use discretion in this case, I said they do not have the right to dictate which shop I do my shopping in.
Contrary to your belief, I doubt very much that a Judge would suggest you are correct in turning someone back because they are going to a supermarket 1km further away then the nearest one.

Look, you know as well as I do, some guards are just assholes, because well, everyone is human.
Some guards are grand & can be having a bad day.
Some guards get things wrong occasionally, because well, everyone is human.
This whole ridiculous argument started because you defended a member, who just overstepped the mark. No need, imo.
Not all guards are right all the time.

Again I repeat, he didn't overstep the mark. Judges rules and in fact this law grants the power to ask questions. He didn't over step any mark. He made a suggestion. That perfectly legal and allowed.

And once again the law has not placed any set limits on the travel. It's all under the 'essential' part. The act has not set restrictions in terms of distance at all for shopping. It all falls under 'essential' and that follows the steps I outlined. Need a set item and your going to the nearest place that stocks it? Absolutely essential. Again I said need, not want. Bypassing a shop because the bread is slightly cheaper next town over? That's simple not essential. Ipso facto, Gardai have the authority to restrict your travel under certain conditions.

Please, you defend the person. Say I turned the person around, they refused and i arrested that person. What would the defence be? "I can use any shop I want"? So.... Donegal from Dublin. Atfterall, your claim is Gardai can't restrict where you go shopping so therefore you can go to any shop in the land.

Discodog

Discodog wrote: »

If the Gardai can't agree between themselves, as to how to implement the law, it's no wonder that we have so much confusion. This is a unique, short lived law that requires Garda discretion. Gardai should be very wary about how they use discretion. It's a huge privileged to be entrusted with so much power.

I suspect that the variation in opinion, amongst the Gardai is down to individual differences & how superiors instruct the rank & file to act. If any individual Garda sees another abusing his powers then they should report them - but I think that's very unlikely.

Is bubble an attested Garda?

Rfrip

I’ve been travelling from cork to Waterford and back every Friday or Saturday for the last few wks.
Four or five check points each way. Every single stop they have been nothing but pleasant. Unfortunately on my trip to Waterford yday I was going home to bad news and when the first guard stopped me, he started to ask me more detailed questions about my trip and I started bawling, explaining to him the situation. He was unbelievably kind to me and kept me chatting for a few mins. I’m sure the poor man has enough to be dealing without a blubbering mess in front of him but he was just so kind

Thought this story was worth telling. Have to take positivity any which way we can these days.

Discodog

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Again I repeat, he didn't overstep the mark. Judges rules and in fact this law grants the power to ask questions. He didn't over step any mark. He made a suggestion. That perfectly legal and allowed.

And once again the law has not placed any set limits on the travel. It's all under the 'essential' part. The act has not set restrictions in terms of distance at all for shopping. It all falls under 'essential' and that follows the steps I outlined. Need a set item and your going to the nearest place that stocks it? Absolutely essential. Again I said need, not want. Bypassing a shop because the bread is slightly cheaper next town over? That's simple not essential. Ipso facto, Gardai have the authority to restrict your travel under certain conditions.

Please, you defend the person. Say I turned the person around, they refused and i arrested that person. What would the defence be? "I can use any shop I want"? So.... Donegal from Dublin. Atfterall, your claim is Gardai can't restrict where you go shopping so therefore you can go to any shop in the land.

Bubblypop appears to be saying that Gardai shouldn't be dicks & pedantic. It's unnecessary & as the UK have shown, a few videos will undo all the good PR from delivering essentials.

Discretion is about common sense & in the OP that started this the common sense approach is to let the person go to the store they choose. They aren't going to mix with any additional people. A few extra kilometres makes no difference.

You & the rest of the Gardai will soon lose your extra powers & will have to Police with the cooperation of the public.

Discodog

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Is bubble an attested Garda?

Are you ? Most Gardai on Boards would never mention their occupation.

Niner leprauchan

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Is bubble an attested Garda?

That is not something that should be asked by a member & definitely shouldn't be answered on a social media website.

Discodog

Discodog wrote: »

Bubblypop appears to be saying that Gardai shouldn't be dicks & pedantic. It's unnecessary & as the UK have shown, a few videos will undo all the good PR from delivering

Exactly

Wibbs

bubblypop wrote: »

& as regards travellers, they are probably all Irish citizens, we cannot ban Irish citizens from entering Ireland.

A) I'm an Irish citizen B, but how far would I get driving from Dublin port to the middle of Kildare with a wife and kids and caravan in tow? Yet a group of such setups wasn't stopped? WTF? This is how utterly fcuking farcical this country has become in too many places. And no I don't blame the Gardai for this. They are under resourced and the judicial system is not fit for purpose when it comes to this sorta thing. I mean it took a couple of weeks before the authorities pulled the finger out to even give Guards the temporary extra powers to stop people.

I wouldn't suggest any ban, I would strongly suggest quarantine for all people entering this country, Irish or not. Every single country that got on top of this and make our numbers of dead look like a tragic joke have done this. They also had border controls, for the most part did proper testing, public mask wearing and contact tracing.

We're an island nation with one of the lowest population densities in the west and yet our deaths are worse than Greece's. Last time I checked eight times worse. And they have twice our population, higher tourist footfall, never mind a refugee crisis. Greece. The "poor man" of Europe and we're waddling around like dopes bumpin into walls by comparison.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

you're right the lockdown is going on a while now, so how on the 10th of this month when the country was under lockdown did a group of families of Travellers from the UK come in via Dublin port(or worse if it was Rosslare) with caravans in tow and make it to the Curragh and then set up an illegal encampment without apparently any interference from any authorities including the Gardai?

Apparently the Gardai are "conscious of Covid-19 adherence for Curragh Traveller settlement". Conscious eh? Isn't that great. I wonder how far I'd get trailing a caravan out of Dublin? Apparently some are let "go as they please".

Oh and before the traveller bashing accusations... Nope. That any group of people can flout the restrictions during the biggest health crisis in the history of the state is the issue here. It shows how actually ineffectually and half arsed our so called authorities have and continue to operate during this crisis. It shows zero border control, zero health checks, zero options for quarantine. Were any of those people tested? Unlikely, as testing has been variable to say the least. Ditto for contact tracing which has been piecemeal. Social distancing? highly unlikely.

Just to make the point here again, these people were probably Irish citizens.
Even if they were not, we have not closed our borders.
Anybody can legally come & go.

I think they are discussing making it mandatory to give an address where you will be self isolating, if you enter the country.
I'd go one further here & suggest a mandatory quarantine somewhere for 14 days, the government have many options for this, hotels lying empty everywhere

New legislation also makes it impossible to move these visitors in the curtain while the emergency is in place.

I think we pretty much agree wibbs

Wibbs

bubblypop wrote: »

Just to make the point here again, these people were probably Irish citizens.
Even if they were not, we have not closed our borders.
Anybody can legally come & go.

New legislation also makes it impossible to move these visitors in the curtain while the emergency is in place.

I know B, it's bloody ridiculous. On both counts. If I go 3 kms beyond my house on a jog(and pigs might fly ) I'm breaking the restrictions. If I drove from Dublin to Kildare village and back again for a spin, I most definietly am and any Guard who stopped me and I told them that, Id get a flea in my ear. Yet a group of a number of families can waltz in from another, sicker country, drive 50 kms and illegally drop anchor in a public space with no sanitation or other basics, and that's graaand? You couldn't make that level of sheer contrary idiocy up and the various authorities are to blame.

I think they are discussing making it mandatory to give an address where you will be self isolating, if you enter the country.
I'd go one further here & suggest a mandatory quarantine somewhere for 14 days, the government have many options for this, hotels lying empty everywhere

+1000 I'd go further too. Defo mandatory quarantine for 14 days out of the pocket of the incoming too. Give them accommodation, like you say in the hotels, but anything beyond they pay for.

Strumms

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Wouldn't you have bought those essential supplies from a nearby location in the first place though? The lockdown didn't just happen. It's going on a while now.

But that's not what happened in the situation. Your pulling scenarios from thin air to justify a position that was taken under different circumstances.

You are also suggesting that Gardai should just not really bother and let everyone go as they please.

Nothing from thin air my friend...Yes, it’s being going on a while, so essential supplies get used and run out and need replenishing, fridges, freezers are only so big and perishables only last so long. You don’t need to be a member of MENSA to understand that.

I’m indeed suggesting Gardai let people go as they please, unless they believe someone has committed a crime or is not complying with restrictions.

I commented positively regarding Gardaí breaking up a big gathering of people not adhering to social distancing in my local park so I support good Gardai actively doing their bit and always will. Unfortunately these days there seems to be quite a few of you ‘not getting it’ which is unfortunate but the good ones will always be supported.

thenightman

My interaction with Garda checkpoints have all gone something like this:


"Howya, where you headed?"

" Just heading to/from work, guard" (point to work ID badge guard clearly can't read from such a distance)

"Gwan so, take it easy"

Mortelaro

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

I can't keep repeating myself. There's law, the law states essential travel only.

It doesn't Grant you a certain limit of travel without question outside of the 2km for exercise section. It doesn't state "go wherever you like on your own town but next town over is a big no no". Can you show me where it does? That's just your personal opinion on what acceptable and what's not.

You are applying common sense aka discretion to scenarios. That's not how the law itself works. The act has given that ability to the Gardai and ultimately, the courts.

Going to a pharmacy or a tesco in another town when theres one in your own is an unnecessary journey
A Garda won't be bringing someone to court because they went a kilometre or two over the road to shop in Dunnes instead of Tesco
If you think the law covers Gardai to do that you are mistaken
Imagine a court clogged up with that sort of codology
The judge would be hoarse from saying Case dismissed after he'd given the Garda responsible a dressing down

Atlantic Dawn

Mortelaro wrote: »

Going to a pharmacy or a tesco in another town when theres one in your own is an unnecessary journey
A Garda won't be bringing someone to court because they went a kilometre or two over the road to shop in Dunnes instead of Tesco
If you think the law covers Gardai to do that you are mistaken
Imagine a court clogged up with that sort of codology
The judge would be hoarse from saying Case dismissed after he'd given the Garda responsible a dressing down

If the pharmacy in your town has poxy stock and expectation is it wouldn't have exactly what you need then going to that pharmacy is a wasted journey where the one in the next town would have what you need, especially if you have to q up at your local one and risk exposure while waiting.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

+1000 I'd go further too. Defo mandatory quarantine for 14 days out of the pocket of the incoming too. Give them accommodation, like you say in the hotels, but anything beyond they pay for.

Actually, the Garda college has been emptied for use by the government during the corona virus emergency.
Perfect place, approx 500 rooms, big wall around the campus & one gate in or out, Kitchen facities etc

scwazrh

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

I can't keep repeating myself. There's law, the law states essential travel only.

Is a group of travellers arriving into Dublin port and driving to the Curragh in Kildare essential travel? If not why have the Garda allowed it ?

scwazrh

scwazrh wrote: »

Is a group of travellers arriving into Dublin port and driving to the Curragh in Kildare essential travel? If not why have the Garda allowed it ?

Laws don’t apply to travellers.

Strumms

Strumms wrote: »

Nothing from thin air my friend...Yes, it’s being going on a while, so essential supplies get used and run out and need replenishing, fridges, freezers are only so big and perishables only last so long. You don’t need to be a member of MENSA to understand that.

I’m indeed suggesting Gardai let people go as they please, unless they believe someone has committed a crime or is not complying with restrictions.

I commented positively regarding Gardaí breaking up a big gathering of people not adhering to social distancing in my local park so I support good Gardai actively doing their bit and always will. Unfortunately these days there seems to be quite a few of you ‘not getting it’ which is unfortunate but the good ones will always be supported.

Right, so your changing the scenario now. You said you needed to return a product. Now it's that the product ran out and needs replenishing.

scwazrh

scwazrh wrote: »

Is a group of travellers arriving into Dublin port and driving to the Curragh in Kildare essential travel? If not why have the Garda allowed it ?

Irish are allowed enter the country and travel home.

And you seem confused by my stance on this issue.