CoVid19 Part XII - 4,604 in ROI (137 deaths) 998 in NI (56 deaths)(04/04) **Read OP**

BattleCorp

facehugger99 wrote: »

And how many will die while it does?

Absolutely no idea to be honest. I assume you are talking about suicide?

This is how I look at it. I am at risk of dying if I catch COVID-19. As far as I'm aware, I'm not at risk of suicide. Therefore in my mind COVID-19 poses a far greater risk to me than suicide so I'd rather let the economy go to sh1te than die.

I'm not sure if others think the same way but I expect most of them would.

Seamai

New Home wrote: »

That series is superb.

Himself is watching The Mafia Only Kills in Summer, I gave up after the first episode. I think it's the Italian humour, as much as I love all things Italian their humour doesn't do it for me.
He says I should give it another try. Watched My Brilliant Friend last year and changed our holiday plans and went to Naples on the back of it, best holiday in years.

Tony EH

snotboogie wrote: »

The HSE gets 17.5 billion, per year, from the Irish government. Maybe we should look at the HSE and actually see where the spend is being allocated to rather than the same tired lazy political back and forth which has got us nowhere since the establishment of the unified health service.

The HSE was created by government. They know exactly where the spend is being allocated.

Still. The frontliners got a clap. They should be happy with that, I spose.

gozunda

FVP3 wrote: »

He's right. Of course masks work, which is why they are trying to keep them for frontline workers.

There are huge quantities of masks in the country not suited for medical purposes due to chain of custody issues etc.

The ones needed for hospital settings must be sourced from bone fide sources and be kept medically sterile.

Many people and businesses have access to masks which dont meet these criteria. These absolutely should be used by the general population to help reduce infection rates. Fairly simple masks can also be home made. It's not rocket science

Ludwig Wittgenstein

facehugger99 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure we'll be borrowing for years. the only questions are who from, how much and for how long.

€200bn of debt and rising - out great-grandkids will be paying it off for us

Would that not suggest borrowing is the answer?

facehugger99

facehugger99 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure we'll be borrowing for years. the only questions are who from, how much and for how long.

€200bn of debt and rising - out great-grandkids will be paying it off for us

so long as our grandkids aren't stricken by a more deadly virus in the meantime.

The other thing is this...

Ace2007

gozunda wrote: »

And again we have no idea who is sick and who is not. Not wearing a mask atm is no better than playing Russian roulette with your own and other peoples health.

Looks like that advisory which was taken on spec from the WHO is now under reevaluation by many countries.

If this same advisory that you talk about - advised government in Ireland to adopt tougher restrictions, say complete lock down - no 2km radius for exercise - would you agree and adhere to this?

Class MayDresser

facehugger99 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure we'll be borrowing for years. the only questions are who from, how much and for how long.

€200bn of debt and rising - out great-grandkids will be paying it off for us

They'll leave some for their great grandkids don't worry. All the western world is borrowed to the gills, not just us.

ZX7R

facehugger99 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure we'll be borrowing for years. the only questions are who from, how much and for how long.

€200bn of debt and rising - out great-grandkids will be paying it off for us

At the moment at least we have not had to borrow any money we have been using our reserve fund.
We will have to borrow soon

Seamai

shocksy wrote: »

+569 deaths in the UK today.

Jesus! That's serious.

caveat emptor

is_that_so wrote: »

I am not remotely opposed to masks but I do object to attempts to browbeat others to do so. IMO it's still a personal choice or their use corresponds to the advice that exists. If that advice changes we'll all be wearing masks.

Tony EH

BattleCorp wrote: »

It's not pointless. It's saving lives.

The economy can eventually recover. The dead won't recover.

As someone said during the week. We know how to restart economies. We don't know how to restart dead people.

darem93

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

There have been 50 deaths in Scotland in the last 24 hours. That's a large jump.

Seemingly there was a delay in the release of some figures in Scotland, so that's why there's a big jump today. Still horrible though.

MipMap

Ace2007 wrote: »

You can wear a mask if you want, however i feel the issues are that people are wearing masks for the sake, and then doing other stupid things. In addition those who really need the masks now have to spend more money on them - A saw a chemist recently selling individual masks for €4 - crazy money.

To me, anyone who wears a mask tells me they are taking this virus seriously and is a person who is a lot less likely to do stupid things than someone who does not.


This nonsense that the mask will lull people into a false senses of security is one of the lame excuses the HSE comes out with because they can't think of anything else to discourage the practice.


If they were in plentiful supply they would be ordering us to wear them
and explaining how it our civic duty to do so in order to protect those around us. Just as they do in Wuhan.

ZX7R

Seamai wrote: »

Jesus! That's serious.

Scary

Hamsterchops

marilynrr wrote: »

It's been taken out of context.
Someone said that this was the biggest crisis the world had faced since WW2.
That's not comparing them, just saying it's the biggest crisis since something else happened.

I totally agree, and I say that as somebody in my 50s, so I've been around for quite a while.

Bad and all as it is, lucky it doesn't have the potency of SARS or Ebloa or we might all be gonners. Here's hoping for a vaccine (realistically) not before the Autumnn, and probably later...

Ace2007

MipMap wrote: »

To me, anyone who wears a mask tells me they are taking this virus seriously and is a person who is a lot less likely to do stupid things than someone who does not.


This nonsense that the mask will lull people into a false senses of security is one of the lame excuses the HSE comes out with because they can't think of anything else to discourage the practice.


If they were in plentiful supply they would be ordering us to wear them
and explaining how it our civic duty to do so in order to protect those around us. Just as they do in Wuhan.

Wuhan had people chained into their houses and treatened if they tried to leave - would you support such an action in Ireland?

Ace2007

MipMap wrote: »

To me, anyone who wears a mask tells me they are taking this virus seriously and is a person who is a lot less likely to do stupid things than someone who does not.


This nonsense that the mask will lull people into a false senses of security is one of the lame excuses the HSE comes out with because they can't think of anything else to discourage the practice.


If they were in plentiful supply they would be ordering us to wear them
and explaining how it our civic duty to do so in order to protect those around us. Just as they do in Wuhan.

Masks also give people a false sense of security - I've seen lads over 70 who shouldn't be out - going for walks, and one even said sure i have the mask on when i jokingly said he shouldn't out. Like why would anyone over 70 be told to stay in door if a mask works?

dan786

UK 500+ deaths two days in a row. Not looking good at all. I can see them hitting 50k cases by end of this week.

jam_mac_jam

Why does it bother other people if people wear masks? Why can't people just mind their own business

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Hamsterchops wrote: »

I totally agree, and I say that as somebody in my 50s, so I've been around for quite a while.

Bad and all as it is, lucky it doesn't have the potency of SARS or Ebloa or we might all be gonners. Here's hoping for a vaccine (realistically) not before the Autumnn, and probably later...

Coronavirus appears to be far more contagious than ebola. All the ebola outbreaks have had limited scope. Ebola might be more deadly once you catch it but catching it is much less likely.

gozunda

Ace2007 wrote: »

If this same advisory that you talk about - advised government in Ireland to adopt tougher restrictions, say complete lock down - no 2km radius for exercise - would you agree and adhere to this?

If and ands were pots and pans eh?

What exactly has that got to do with general common sense and wearing a mask to help reduce the rate of infecting others?

The previous no mask wearing advisory is looking increasingly dodgy. If you have a mask use it.

caveat emptor

gozunda wrote: »

There are huge quantities of masks in the country not suited for medical purposes due to chain of custody issues etc.

The ones needed for hospital settings must be sourced from bone fide sources and be kept medically sterile.

Many people and businesses have access to masks which dont meet these criteria. These absolutely should be used by the general population to help reduce infection rates. Fairly simple masks can also be home made. It's not rocket science

YES, they are functionally the same but can't be used in healthcare for issues you correctly state.
FDA approved masks for this purpose.
Naples hospital using them to great affect.
These respirators are not single use and can be decontaminated etc and reused.

At a certain point we have to start thinking for ourselves as a country.


https://www.mlo-online.com/disease/infectious-disease/article/21128593/fda-allows-healthcare-personnel-to-use-industrial-respirators-during-covid19-outbreak

bekker

Lord Fairlord wrote: »

People may not have seen this; from Prof Walter Ricciardi from a Telegraph article on Italian Covid deaths.

"“The way in which we code deaths in our country is very generous in the sense that all the people who die in hospitals with the coronavirus are deemed to be dying of the coronavirus.

“On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity - many had two or three,” he says."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/have-many-coronavirus-patients-died-italy/

To continue the quote.....

'This does not mean that Covid-19 did not contribute to a patient's death, rather it demonstrates that Italy's fatality toll has surged as a large proportion of patients have underlying health conditions. Experts have also warned against making direct comparisons between countries due to discrepancies in testing.'

If a person with a coronary condition is hit by a bus and dies, his heart condition may have contributed to his fate, but he would have remained alive if he hadn't been hit by the bus.

If COVID-19 is not shown as a cause of death you also skew the statistics, only if an autopsy revealed that COVID-19 was not a causal factor should it be excluded.

Not possible now because of resources and danger, studies in China indicate 100% of those who died from COVID-19 were still shedding the virus. cf Incineration.

accensi0n

MipMap wrote: »

To me, anyone who wears a mask tells me they are taking this virus seriously and is a person who is a lot less likely to do stupid things than someone who does not.

On the whole, probably true. I have seen people out and about wearing gloves and masks rub their eyes, and even put cigarettes in their mouths after already touching things...

jackboy

Ace2007 wrote: »

Masks also give people a false sense of security - I've seen lads over 70 who shouldn't be out - going for walks, and one even said sure i have the mask on when i jokingly said he shouldn't out. Like why would anyone over 70 be told to stay in door if a mask works?

Because masks significantly reduce the risk of infection. They don’t eliminate the risk.

Cork Boy 53

Apparently there is going to be a discussion on whether or not the general public should be wearing masks on Primetime tonight.

fits

I dont have access to a mask except for a respirator used for spraying chemicals which looks terrifying.

Tried to wear a snood over my face for grocery shopping last week and it kept on falling out of place resulting in my touching of face to try and fix it, so I gave up. Id wear a mask if I had one though - just not the scary respirator.

Health workers can't even get masks ffs. They should be totally prioritised.

There's regular people driving around wearing them. Seen it a handful of times already and I haven't been out much :rolleyes:

EDit

For all those suggesting we’ve got this licked and we’ll be back to “normal” in 2, 3, 4 weeks, have a read of this article about China: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00938-0

IMO, while we may see some sort of loosening of restrictions from May/June onwards, I think we are a long way off being back to “normal” (ie, schools opened up, pubs rammed, people off to concerts, festivals and other large-scale events, etc..)

caveat emptor

accensi0n wrote: »

On the whole, probably true. I have seen people out and about wearing gloves and masks rub their eyes, and even put cigarettes in their mouths after already touching things...

That's true. Good point. I saw someone drive into a ditch once. Cars are dangerous and not worth using due to the danger even if they have utility. (sarcasm)

Ace2007

gozunda wrote: »

If and ands were pots and pans eh?

What exactly has that got to do with general common sense and wearing a mask to help reduce the rate of infecting others?

The previous no mask wearing advisory is looking increasingly dodgy. If you have a mask use it.

It's got to do with you looking and posting about what happens in one country, but failing to look at the bigger picture in said country.

Common sense is not something people have much of.
You want to reduce rate of infecting others - don't go out - it's simple just stay inside.

MipMap

Ace2007 wrote: »

Wuhan had people chained into their houses and treatened if they tried to leave - would you support such an action in Ireland?

eh, No

Ace2007

MipMap wrote: »

eh, No

But that's working for them - so why not do it here?

jam_mac_jam

caveat emptor wrote: »

That's true. Good point. I saw someone drive into a ditch once. Cars are dangerous and not worth using due to the danger even if they have utility. (sarcasm)

Amazing that everyone has an anecdote to prove their point. Just amazing.

facehugger99

Tony EH wrote: »

As someone said during the week. We know how to restart economies. We don't know how to restart dead people.

Yeah, but those people are morons.

It's the economy that allows us to spend €20bn a year on health services.

If we had to suddenly reduce that to €10bn a year, do you think that wouldn't result in hundreds of deaths?

Do those people not count just because some social-media hero isn't bleating about them on Facebook?

spookwoman

Ace2007 wrote: »

You can wear a mask if you want, however i feel the issues are that people are wearing masks for the sake, and then doing other stupid things. In addition those who really need the masks now have to spend more money on them - A saw a chemist recently selling individual masks for €4 - crazy money.

And those who got masks early don't need them?

Ger Roe

Harry Palmr wrote: »

I was watching the UK government presser yesterday and the minister clearly stated - "we all rescued you in 2008 now you need to return the favour for small business esp". Have we heard a peep regarding our own fine institutions from the government?

Yes... last week, Fiscal O Donoghue met with them and arranged the mortgage payment pause (added on to the end bit) scheme and loan packages for businesses. I am not sure how useful any of the measures will be in the end, but there has certainly been a peep from the government.

It may not be a very effective peep and maybe they could do more than a peep, but there has been contact.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

fits wrote: »

I dont have access to a mask except for a respirator used for spraying chemicals which looks terrifying.

Tried to wear a snood over my face for grocery shopping last week and it kept on falling out of place resulting in my touching of face to try and fix it, so I gave up. Id wear a mask if I had one though - just not the scary respirator.

Tie the scarf around your head.

Doctor Jimbob

facehugger99 wrote: »

Yeah, but those people are morons.

It's the economy that allows us to spend €20bn a year on health services.

If we had to suddenly reduce that to €10bn a year, do you think that wouldn't result in hundreds of deaths?

Do those people not count just because some social-media hero isn't bleating about them on Facebook?

Maybe all this is a sign that we need to work on improving our economic system so it doesn't collapse as a result of trying to save lives?

The way people go on about the economy as if it's some immutable force of nature is fecking weird. We have the power to fix the economy. At the moment, we don't have the power to fix this virus.

facehugger99

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Maybe all this is a sign that we need to work on improving our economic system so it doesn't collapse as a result of trying to save lives?

The way people go on about the economy as if it's some immutable force of nature is fecking weird. We have the power to fix the economy. At the moment, we don't have the power to fix this virus.

And I'm sure that you'll, as usual, have some great actual suggestions, as opposed to meaningless soundbites.

tobefrank321

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

6.7 million Americans have filed for unemployment assistance within space of a week, a record

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-02/u-s-jobless-claims-doubled-to-record-6-65-million-last-week?srnd=premium-europe

And that's just for a short term lockdown. Imagine a long term one. Industries like airlines and manufacturers like Boeing and Airbus in Europe would be in serious trouble. Also car manfacturers.

I've been in favour of a short term lockdown but economically its not sustainable for longer than 6 weeks. Governments and medical officials have to come up with a better and possibly radical plan to lift lockdowns while also controlling the spread of covid19.

Doctor Jimbob

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Maybe all this is a sign that we need to work on improving our economic system so it doesn't collapse as a result of trying to save lives?

The way people go on about the economy as if it's some immutable force of nature is fecking weird. We have the power to fix the economy. At the moment, we don't have the power to fix this virus.

Its not as easy as just clicking your fingers and "fixing the economy"

ongarite

Ludwig Wittgenstein wrote: »

Why not borrow to tide us over?

We are on track for a minimum deficit of 16 billion if this goes on for another 2 months.
30 billion if this lock-down goes on until September.

That's over 4 times bigger than the banking bailout which had this country on its knees for 10 years.

We will have to get the service industry back up and running within 2 months or the whole population is screwed, not just the vulnerable to this pandemic.

Doctor Jimbob

facehugger99 wrote: »

And I'm sure that you'll, as usual, have some great actual suggestions, as opposed to meaningless soundbites.

As opposed to your own daily contribution of crying about the economy?

I'm not claiming to have the solutions. I'm saying that protecting something we can change if we're willing at the cost of thousands of lives is fecking weird.

Deleted User wrote: »

Its not as easy as just clicking your fingers and "fixing the economy"

I didn't say it was easy, I said it was possible.

Funsterdelux

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Maybe all this is a sign that we need to work on improving our economic system so it doesn't collapse as a result of trying to save lives?

The way people go on about the economy as if it's some immutable force of nature is fecking weird. We have the power to fix the economy. At the moment, we don't have the power to fix this virus.

Agreed

The economy is a force that destroys nature, its economies that make struggling people venture further into the wilderness, where we havent been before and where these deadly viruses live. Its our globalist economy that has caused this pandemic, its not a bat's fault.

DOCARCH

ongarite wrote: »

We are on track for a minimum deficit of 16 billion if this goes on for another 2 months.
30 billion if this lock-down goes on until September.

That's over 4 times bigger than the banking bailout which had this country on its knees for 10 years.

We will have to get the service industry back up and running within 2 months or the whole population is screwed, not just the vulnerable to this pandemic.

I thought bank bail out was about 65 billion? Could be wrong.

tobefrank321

facehugger99 wrote: »

And I'm sure that you'll, as usual, have some great actual suggestions, as opposed to meaningless soundbites.

That's a bit harsh. Maybe you will come up with suggestions yourself?

MipMap

fits wrote: »

I dont have access to a mask except for a respirator used for spraying chemicals which looks terrifying.

Tried to wear a snood over my face for grocery shopping last week and it kept on falling out of place resulting in my touching of face to try and fix it, so I gave up. Id wear a mask if I had one though - just not the scary respirator.

Just looking at the articles from the CDC and a few interviews on RTE News and BBC News. I'm guessing they are going to start suggesting people make their own. RTE has a spot on today where some ladies somewhere are running them up on their sewing machines at home.


The idea that Joe Public could cause a run on medical masks is a bit of a Red Herring. The ones that came in from China last week were delivered by Army trucks to the HSE. Even Care Home Staff couldn't get their hands on them for a while.

Naggdefy

facehugger99 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure we'll be borrowing for years. the only questions are who from, how much and for how long.

€200bn of debt and rising - out great-grandkids will be paying it off for us

FFS! Economy hype merchant.