CoVid19 Part XII - 4,604 in ROI (137 deaths) 998 in NI (56 deaths)(04/04) **Read OP**

lawred2

mikeoc85 wrote: »

If we only have 167 more ICU beds available then this government need to serve time in prison.

That's criminal, and incredibly slow moving since they've know for weeks now they'd need hundreds more...get F*cking moving.

Can you detail what you know is needed to put an ICU bed in place?

Funsterdelux

Worztron wrote: »

Hi. What's the number to text the WHO to get info on your phone? Thanks.

+41 79 893 18 92

Txt hi

lawred2

wadacrack wrote: »

https://twitter.com/ProfKarolSikora/status/1244566715251515395

Is there an antibody test available?

It's easy to "plan" for that - but I didn't know there was such a test available.

Talisman

gozunda wrote: »

Didnt say they didnt btw. It remains restrictions on known hotspots would have helped limit clusters here.

Amazing how some are so resistant to any possible proactive management. And that's why we here with this pandemic. Odd that the WHO were screaming so vehemently that Chinese flights not to be restricted then - all the while China completely locked its own hotspots down and is closing down flights from countries now infected. We will never learn apparently ...

Wuhan was locked down on January 23. There was a mutation in the UK possibly before that date.

Logan Roy

caveat emptor wrote: »

https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1244862476237377536?s=20

They were effectively spitting all over each for 2 and a half hours :pac:

It's not exactly proof that you can catch it off someone walking past them in the supermarket.

Bob24

wadacrack wrote: »

https://twitter.com/ProfKarolSikora/status/1244566715251515395

It is a good thing for sure, but in a way a bit scary. You can already imagine rules whereby people with a "certificate of immunity" are handed bracelet or a digital certificate on their phone confirming they are allowed in the real world, while others are told to stay at home until the health system is up to speed.

Hector Savage

Hector Savage wrote: »

Dissapointed with Spains numbers yesterday ... on the rise again

Advice for everyone tracking the numbers. Don't get too invested in the daily figures, there will be massive fluctuations, particularly in smaller countries, but also in larger countries where reporting mechanisms may change, groups of cases may be added, changes is testing criteria etc.. Look to the overall trend - in Italy for example, what a week ago may have looked like a fluctuation in cases, now clearly looks like a peak has been passed and a trend in the right direction. If we were to get an increase there today I would not read too much in to it, but wait to see if the downward trend resumes in the next 3 to 5 days before drawing any conclusions. Similarly the trend in deaths in Italy appears to be about a week behind that of cases. But more data is needed to draw a conclusion.

Sadly, while it is in our instincts to look to the daily numbers for hope pointing to this coming to an end, it will only be in the weeks after the peak that we will be able to conclude with any degree of certainty that improvement has become embedded and a return to normality is in sight

voluntary

wadacrack wrote: »

https://twitter.com/ProfKarolSikora/status/1244566715251515395

If the 'already infected and cured' cert becomes a job requirement I can only imagine young but poor will be trying to voluntarily infect themselves just to get out and get good jobs now.

statto25

lawred2 wrote: »

Is there an antibody test available?

It's easy to "plan" for that - but I didn't know there was such a test available.

There is but there was a quote from the HSE on Matt Cooper last week saying that its too early for Ireland to be running this test and its something for further down the road. Personally, I think they are 1000s of folks who have had the virus but have been mild affected or not at all and just isolated. Finding these people would be more beneficial in letting the public get back on track. Its also a blood test I believe so not as specific in terms of kit for testing

BanditLuke

For me anyway if we as a country can get to a place where not a single doctor in the health service has to make a decision on removing a elderly person from a ventilator for a younger person to be given it consigning them to death we will have something to be proud of as a nation. I don't want any doctor in this country having to go through what the doctors in Italy and Spain are. It's not really elderly people either i have read reports of people in their 60's having to be sedated and let die.

So when people say is it worth it then they really need to ask themselves could you live with that on your conscience?

leavingirl

leavingirl wrote: »

Citation needed.

Say what you like about infection rates, but deaths are deaths!

Palmach

Guards stopping people and telling them to turn around and go home. Have they the legal powers to do this. Leo made it clear these are guidelines which we should abide by but afaik there is no legal powers given to the Gardai to force people

Worztron

Funsterdelux wrote: »

+41 79 893 18 92

Txt hi

Thank you very much, Funsterdelux.

Rob A. Bank

It is almost as if this damn virus planned the strategy for its attack on humanity…

(a) Start explosive spread in a really busy transport hub during the world’s largest annual human migration in China for the Lunar New Year festival. (3 billion trips)

(b) Take out the mask makers, so it will spread more easily and decimate the health workers.

(c) Then take out the nasopharyngeal swab makers, making it more difficult to diagnose cases and trace the contacts.

Before the outbreak, China already made about half of the world’s supply of masks. Hubei province in China, the epicenter of the pandemic, is also a large manufacturing center of medical masks.

Lombardy, Italy, the hardest-hit place in Europe, houses one of the largest manufacturers of nasopharyngeal swabs.

Facts gleaned from a good long read, ‘How the Pandemic Will End’ in The Atlantic.

IvoryTower

BanditLuke wrote: »

For me anyway if we as a country can get to a place where not a single doctor in the health service has to make a decision on removing a elderly person from a ventilator for a younger person to be given it consigning them to death we will have something to be proud of as a nation. I don't want any doctor in this country having to go through what the doctors in Italy and Spain are. It's not really elderly people i have read reports of people in their 60's having to be sedated and let die.

So when people say is it worth it then they really need to ask themselves could you live with that on your conscience?

They all think its worth it until its someone they know who needs the ventilator, I just ignore them at this stage. Very proud of how our country is handling this to date.

owlbethere

rusty cole wrote: »

I watched that usual HSE conference and I don't believe we are getting all the facts at all. look at Tony playing with his wedding ring and count how many times the other doctor shifts his phone.. they're holding back on facts.
I don't buy the way they tell us the vast Majority will have a cold , moderate flu or even no symptoms at all and then another healthy human being is wiped out and on the front pages of Daily mail and the likes, we're all human and it's not mutating to that degree. I notice every Tom hanks, edris elba and ryan turbidy, seem to get a stay at home for a few days I'm fine from skype dose and joe public is told this will kill you indiscriminately.
Where's the encouraging news to promote mental health, like X have now recovered, etc..or is the idea, hey guys it's me Ryan, I'm doing my bit, you guys must follow the rules, No ten day wait for his receipt of and confirmation via test either. Could be cabin fever but some things are not adding up for me.
The stammering and rowing back on kits and all that, is just not believable.

Maybe Tony is mindful of not touching his face and he chooses to play with his ring to help with that. You have to remember these professionals are working long and hard and they are probably tired and tired people tend to rub their eyes easily.

The tests are limited and we are not the only country to have limited tests. The old criteria for testing was picking up a lot of negative results. The new criteria is aimed at pinpointing more cases. Testing doesn't change the course of the treatment either. You self isolate if you feel symptoms.

BanditLuke

statto25 wrote: »

There is but there was a quote from the HSE on Matt Cooper last week saying that its too early for Ireland to be running this test and its something for further down the road. Personally, I think they are 1000s of folks who have had the virus but have been mild affected or not at all and just isolated. Finding these people would be more beneficial in letting the public get back on track. Its also a blood test I believe so not as specific in terms of kit for testing

I'd stick my neck out here and say it's actually as high as 250k people who have contracted it since this begun. The vast majority show very minor or no symptoms whatsoever.

Busi_Girl08

Palmach wrote: »

Guards stopping people and telling them to turn around and go home. Have they the legal powers to do this. Leo made it clear these are guidelines which we should abide by but afaik there is no legal powers given to the Gardai to force people

They will have the power to issue sanctions (fines) as far as I know.

And also, in fairness, they're Guards. If they tell you to do something, like to go home during a lockdown as a result of a global pandemic...just go home. They're not doing it for the craic.

iamwhoiam

mikeoc85 wrote: »

If we only have 167 more ICU beds available then this government need to serve time in prison.

That's criminal, and incredibly slow moving since they've know for weeks now they'd need hundreds more...get F*cking moving.

An ICU bed is of no use whatsoever if you dont have trained staff .You cant lob someone into and ICU bed and intubate them and leave them to figure it out

Wombatman

Crowds ignore coronavirus social distancing rules to watch arrival of USNS Comfort hospital ship in New York

bilston

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Can you tell me anything about the background of these numbers?

Are they testing as much? Are the suffering a shortage of test kits? Are they able to keep labs going?

I'm sorry but Im not sure we can read anything into a dailly change like that at the moment.

Yesterday's Italian death rate was still horrific but we wouldn't expect to see that fall for another week or two if steps taken are working.

No doubt that the statistic for number of tests would be useful, but every other country in the world seems to be ramping testing up, not down, is there any reason to think that Italy is an different?

It's more than a daily change. Over the last 12 days the daily percentage of new cases has gradually dropped from 13% to 4%. Obviously as cases go up it just means that the number of new cases has really stabilised more than anything, but yesterday saw the actual number of cases drop to their lowest amount in two weeks. Fair enough, let's see if it happens again, but the timing of the lockdown (21 days ago now) suggests that new cases should be dropping now.

Hector Savage

Worztron wrote: »

Hi. What's the number to text the WHO to get info on your phone? Thanks.

00 41 79 893 1892

is_that_so

Busi_Girl08 wrote: »

They will have the power to issue sanctions (fines) as far as I know.

And also, in fairness, they're Guards. If they tell you to do something, like to go home during a lockdown as a result of a global pandemic...just go home. They're not doing it for the craic.

I think that power will be held off unless it's absolutely necessary. Their presence alone seems to be enough for now.

joe40

Sweet.Science wrote: »

How long can these lockdowns and self isolation last . Stop the spread / Flatten the curve etc . There is no end game . Just prolonging everything .

At what stage do they advise vulnerable people and over 70s to cocoon and the rest of society slowly gets back to a normalish way of living ?

Since 1945 we have lived a charmed life in the west, ( that includes all the current elderly) near constant economic growth, all wars were foreign, (the nasty wee conflict in NI the only exception).
This is our first real taste of a global life threatening crisis. On the scale of disasters, both natural and man made, that affect other countries, it's not even that bad so far.
If we get over this with a few months restrictions in movement we can consider ourselves very fortunate, it could get a lot worse yet.

zinfandel

iamwhoiam wrote: »

An ICU bed is of no use whatsoever if you dont have trained staff .You cant lob someone into and ICU bed and intubate them and leave them to figure it out

EXACTLY, have a read of this posted a day or two ago, a piece of equipment is only as good as the person using it, have we 100's of fully trained nurses ready to let loose on them??

Interesting read from a health sector worker in the UK.

I'll be honest, as I see it due to working in Intensive Care. The lack of ventilators, which the government is falling over itself to sort, is not the biggest issue at the moment, it'll be the lack of suitably trained people to operate the ventilators effectively, as part of overall care for a critically unwell patient.
You can give (and we are) non-Intensive Care nurses basic training on ventilators but, as experience is showing, many Covid-19 patients that are being ventilated on Intensive Care Units are effectively in multi organ failure, requiring wider treatment than 'just' ventilation.
Even those patients who aren't in multi organ failure require more complex treatment regimes due to the nature of the high pressures required for effective ventilation and to keep patients as sedated as we can in order that they are compliant with the ventilation settings.
(My apologies but some 'shop talk' will appear now, I'll link to articles explaining what I'm talking about where I can)
We are having to heavily sedate patients far deeper than the levels we usually aim for.
Usually we try to sedate patients to a RASS of 0 to -2, which means patients are very lightly sedated, often able to breath spontaneously under the sedation. This helps maintain strength in muscle groups required for breathing and means that hospital stays are shortened, less rehabilitation is required and patients outcomes are overall much better.
With Covid-19 though we are having to ventilate patients with much higher pressures than we normally would in order to counter the effects of the pneumonia that it causes. These higher pressures cause issues with patients not 'sycronising' with the events, in short because the body finds it uncomfortable and triesto resist (desyncronising). As a result we're generally having to sedate patients to a RASS of-4 to -5 (so-called "flattening them out") and are very often also having to use paralysing medications to ensure total compliance.
This level of sedation then introduces other issues, predominately sedation-related hypotension (low blood pressure), for which we then have to give other medications (inotropes) in order to vasoconstrict the vascular system and keep blood pressure high around the core organs to keep them perfused (well oxygenated via blood flow).
Using inotropes though has a knock-on issue of it's own, or rather two predominate ones; lower blood pressure in kidneys and poor blood flow at the extremities. The former causes a reduction in urine production, leading to poor excretion of harmful waste products within the blood stream, the latter can lead (in extreme case) to necrosis (cell death from oxygen starvation).
To add to this, we are unable to directly treat Covid-19 as there is currently no cure, so we're relying upon patients own immune system to deal with it. This causes other issues, among them; the immune response requiring large amounts of glucose to be released into the blood system to 'feed the body' and, as a consequence of so much glucose being used metabolically, an increase in the amount of Ketones within the blood.
The large amount of glucose needs to both be supplemented (through Nasogastric Feeding) and controlled (with Insulin) to try and restrict the levels of blood glucose. If left unchecked the body will just keep glucose (causing Hyperglycemia) and 'burning it' metabolically and in doing so releasing increasing amounts of Ketone (which is an acid, so causing Ketoacidosis). This rise in acidity, compounded by a drop in urine output, causes a drop in blood Ph, which is incredibly damaging to all parts of the body at a cellular level.
Whilst there is far more involved in looking afte a patient on Intensive Care I hope that this brief explanation shows that 'merely' putting someone on a ventilator has a knock-on to multiple organ groups, all that in turn have a knock-on to other ones.
Teaching someone to operate a ventilator is (comparatively) simple. Teaching someone how to titrate medications, adjust ventilator settings, when to give additional medications to address issues with observed patient 'vitals' etc is not. This is why, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, it can take 12-18 months of additional specialist training before a registered nurse can operate safely as an Intensive Care nurse.
We have to be able to keep the most dependant patients alive without the benefit of calling a doctor for advice all the time. Indeed, generally, the junior doctors will cede to the knowledge of nurses with regards to Intensive Care patients as we're often far more experienced in such s specialist ares than they are (due to the nature of their training/placement program).
- Ventilators are not the sole issue.

leavingirl

Wombatman wrote: »

Crowds ignore coronavirus social distancing rules to watch arrival of USNS Comfort hospital ship in New York

Report them! Report them all!

declanflynn

mikeoc85 wrote: »

If we only have 167 more ICU beds available then this government need to serve time in prison.

That's criminal, and incredibly slow moving since they've know for weeks now they'd need hundreds more...get F*cking moving.

its great the way the whole country are getting behind our leaders who are doing a remarkable job

mikeoc85

mikeoc85 wrote: »

If we only have 167 more ICU beds available then this government need to serve time in prison.

That's criminal, and incredibly slow moving since they've know for weeks now they'd need hundreds more...get F*cking moving.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, do you?

flanna01

Ebola hasn't disappeared - It sporadically raises it's ugly head.

mikeoc85

Mallory Dead Self-confidence wrote: »

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, do you?

I know the government have let us have one of the lowest ICU numbers in Europe...half that of Italy's.

petes

mikeoc85 wrote: »

I know the government have let us have one of the lowest ICU numbers in Europe...half that of Italy's.

Again, absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Jinglejangle69

mikeoc85 wrote: »

I know the government have let us have one of the lowest ICU numbers in Europe...half that of Italy's.

Yeah our population is the same as Italys

This thread would melt your brain.

declanflynn

mikeoc85 wrote: »

I know the government have let us have one of the lowest ICU numbers in Europe...half that of Italy's.

have a look at what's happening in the UK, the country most comparable to ireland

AmberGold

zinfandel wrote: »

EXACTLY, have a read of this posted a day or two ago, a piece of equipment is only as good as the person using it, have we 100's of fully trained nurses ready to let loose on them??

Interesting read from a health sector worker in the UK.

I'll be honest, as I see it due to working in Intensive Care. The lack of ventilators, which the government is falling over itself to sort, is not the biggest issue at the moment, it'll be the lack of suitably trained people to operate the ventilators effectively, as part of overall care for a critically unwell patient.
You can give (and we are) non-Intensive Care nurses basic training on ventilators but, as experience is showing, many Covid-19 patients that are being ventilated on Intensive Care Units are effectively in multi organ failure, requiring wider treatment than 'just' ventilation.
Even those patients who aren't in multi organ failure require more complex treatment regimes due to the nature of the high pressures required for effective ventilation and to keep patients as sedated as we can in order that they are compliant with the ventilation settings.
(My apologies but some 'shop talk' will appear now, I'll link to articles explaining what I'm talking about where I can)
We are having to heavily sedate patients far deeper than the levels we usually aim for.
Usually we try to sedate patients to a RASS of 0 to -2, which means patients are very lightly sedated, often able to breath spontaneously under the sedation. This helps maintain strength in muscle groups required for breathing and means that hospital stays are shortened, less rehabilitation is required and patients outcomes are overall much better.
With Covid-19 though we are having to ventilate patients with much higher pressures than we normally would in order to counter the effects of the pneumonia that it causes. These higher pressures cause issues with patients not 'sycronising' with the events, in short because the body finds it uncomfortable and triesto resist (desyncronising). As a result we're generally having to sedate patients to a RASS of-4 to -5 (so-called "flattening them out") and are very often also having to use paralysing medications to ensure total compliance.
This level of sedation then introduces other issues, predominately sedation-related hypotension (low blood pressure), for which we then have to give other medications (inotropes) in order to vasoconstrict the vascular system and keep blood pressure high around the core organs to keep them perfused (well oxygenated via blood flow).
Using inotropes though has a knock-on issue of it's own, or rather two predominate ones; lower blood pressure in kidneys and poor blood flow at the extremities. The former causes a reduction in urine production, leading to poor excretion of harmful waste products within the blood stream, the latter can lead (in extreme case) to necrosis (cell death from oxygen starvation).
To add to this, we are unable to directly treat Covid-19 as there is currently no cure, so we're relying upon patients own immune system to deal with it. This causes other issues, among them; the immune response requiring large amounts of glucose to be released into the blood system to 'feed the body' and, as a consequence of so much glucose being used metabolically, an increase in the amount of Ketones within the blood.
The large amount of glucose needs to both be supplemented (through Nasogastric Feeding) and controlled (with Insulin) to try and restrict the levels of blood glucose. If left unchecked the body will just keep glucose (causing Hyperglycemia) and 'burning it' metabolically and in doing so releasing increasing amounts of Ketone (which is an acid, so causing Ketoacidosis). This rise in acidity, compounded by a drop in urine output, causes a drop in blood Ph, which is incredibly damaging to all parts of the body at a cellular level.
Whilst there is far more involved in looking afte a patient on Intensive Care I hope that this brief explanation shows that 'merely' putting someone on a ventilator has a knock-on to multiple organ groups, all that in turn have a knock-on to other ones.
Teaching someone to operate a ventilator is (comparatively) simple. Teaching someone how to titrate medications, adjust ventilator settings, when to give additional medications to address issues with observed patient 'vitals' etc is not. This is why, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, it can take 12-18 months of additional specialist training before a registered nurse can operate safely as an Intensive Care nurse.
We have to be able to keep the most dependant patients alive without the benefit of calling a doctor for advice all the time. Indeed, generally, the junior doctors will cede to the knowledge of nurses with regards to Intensive Care patients as we're often far more experienced in such s specialist ares than they are (due to the nature of their training/placement program).
- Ventilators are not the sole issue.

Assuming it's factually correct this is one of the most informative pieces I've seen written anywhere since this ordeal began.

BloodBath

AmberGold wrote: »

Assuming it's factually correct this is one of the most informative pieces I've seen written anywhere since this ordeal began.

Shame about the formatting.

Gods Gift

Wombatman wrote: »

Crowds ignore coronavirus social distancing rules to watch arrival of USNS Comfort hospital ship in New York

The irony.

Americans are Americans

Rob A. Bank

joe40 wrote: »

Since 1945 we have lived a charmed life in the west, ( that includes all the current elderly) near constant economic growth, all wars were foreign, (the nasty wee conflict in NI the only exception).
This is our first real taste of a global life threatening crisis. On the scale of disasters, both natural and man made, that affect other countries, it's not even that bad so far.
If we get over this with a few months restrictions in movement we can consider ourselves very fortunate, it could get a lot worse yet.

The generations immediately post 1945 did not have to be reminded of the dangers of right wing populist leaders, and the damage they can cause.

Unfortunately that hard lesson seems to be lost on current voters, with the rise of the likes of Trump, Bolsonaro, Orban, Duterte etc.

Bleak times ahead unless they are voted out.

declanflynn

declanflynn wrote: »

have a look at what's happening in the UK, the country most comparable to ireland

In what way are the two “most comparable”?

Omackeral

Palmach wrote: »

Guards stopping people and telling them to turn around and go home. Have they the legal powers to do this. Leo made it clear these are guidelines which we should abide by but afaik there is no legal powers given to the Gardai to force people

If you don't do it you should just be beaten to bits with a sack of old door knobs.

Omackeral

Gods Gift wrote: »

The irony.

Americans are Americans

We had enough f*cking eejits ourselves here on beaches and Glendalough recently, packing out pubs and going to Cheltenham in their droves just before that too.

BloodBath

caveat emptor wrote: »

More info about wuhan deaths coming out. Evidence that death count wasn't accurate. Surprise.

https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1244864160434982917?s=20

Do yourself a favour and stop using twitter. It has infected your brain.

Gods Gift

Palmach wrote: »

Guards stopping people and telling them to turn around and go home. Have they the legal powers to do this. Leo made it clear these are guidelines which we should abide by but afaik there is no legal powers given to the Gardai to force people

Do what I do and reverse everywhere.
Confuses the guards.

Speakerboxx

gozunda wrote: »

I'll have whatever you're on :pac:

Better than what you are on anyway

Omackeral

Gods Gift wrote: »

Do what I do and reverse everywhere.
Confuses the guards.

Makes the fuel gauge go back up too, as well as reduce the mileage.

Ger Roe

owlbethere wrote: »

Testing doesn't change the course of the treatment either. You self isolate if you feel symptoms.

That's true for the actual individual infected, but as they keep saying, now that they have had resource issues with the testing, it was always being done for public health reasons - to get stats on case locations (clusters) and for contact tracing (apparently the most critical aspect in slowing the disease, after individual isolation, hand washing).

If we are not keeping up with the testing, we have less info to work off and it becomes more luck than science in tracking it down. If an individual isolates without a test, all well and good for them, but who have they been in contact with previously and how will they know it is safe to go back to a more normal life, did they have it and now have some immunity, or are they at risk again?
My understanding is that if people are not tested, those questions are not investigated and answered.

The main stat to be concerned about, now that testing is apparently more random than it was, is ICU capacity. That is the next critical finite resource.

Disclaimer - I am not an expert but I have been keeping up with all the factual information, and have noticed that it sometimes changes to suit the particular circumstance of the day.

iwillyeah1234

Was just on the phone to a mate of mine who is living in Spain. The police response out there is unbelievably more restrictive than anything we’ve experienced so far in both Ireland and Britain.

On the beach on your own? Immediate fine.

Didn’t get back from supermarket within an hour? Immediate fine.

Checkpoints setup on roads - they will check your receipt time stamp. Don’t have the receipt? Immediate fine.

Not allowed into supermarkets without face mask and gloves.

caveat emptor

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Can you tell me anything about the background of these numbers?

Are they testing as much? Are the suffering a shortage of test kits? Are they able to keep labs going?

I'm sorry but Im not sure we can read anything into a dailly change like that at the moment.

Yesterday's Italian death rate was still horrific but we wouldn't expect to see that fall for another week or two if steps taken are working.

This refers to new cases. From the data I've looked at it takes ~20 days to die. Deaths won't slow for a while unfortunately but you should see new cases falling.

The last column is tests. Of course they may have seen a reduction in being able to process tests. I don't have that information.


http://www.salute.gov.it/imgs/C_17_notizie_4362_0_file.pdf

begbysback

voluntary wrote: »

If the 'already infected and cured' cert becomes a job requirement I can only imagine young but poor will be trying to voluntarily infect themselves just to get out and get good jobs now.

It says return to work, not a certificate to steal someone else’s job, at a time when common sense is required you can rely on the Germans to lead the way.

CIARAN_BOYLE

bilston wrote: »

No doubt that the statistic for number of tests would be useful, but every other country in the world seems to be ramping testing up, not down, is there any reason to think that Italy is an different?

Lombardy (the worst hit Italian region) abandoned community testing a few weeks back. They may have gone back to testing since I dont know.

I'm just suspicious that if testing was abandoned in one Italian region maybe it was abandoned in others.

So if I see numbers go down I ask what's going on rather than yay numbers are down.

froog

iwillyeah1234 wrote: »

Was just on the phone to a mate of mine who is living in Spain. The police response out there is unbelievably more restrictive than anything we’ve experience so far in both Ireland and Britain.

On the beach on your own? Immediate fine.

Didn’t get back from supermarket within an hour? Immediate fine.

Checkpoints setup on roads - they will check your receipt time stamp. Don’t have the receipt? Immediate fine.

ireland tends to do what we're told so the more heavy handed approach is not really needed. not the same on the continent. having said that, there are fines in place now and gardai checkpoints so we're not far off it.