Masks

patnor1011

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

Graham wrote: »

You quoted 'reasonable excuses' nothing more.

Mental illness is a 'reasonable excuse' for killing someone. Do we just take someone's word for it?

Killing someone is quite definite.
While people may believe that "if you do not have mask you may be spreading virus and maybe killing someone down the line" argument- is not that definite. It deals with possibility, maybe probability but still with quite a lot of "what if's" and "maybe".

Graham

Hunky Monster wrote: »

So you think people have to explain to bus drivers

Let's take a look at the legislation

The following persons (each of whom, in these Regulations, is referred to as a “relevant person”) are specified as relevant persons for the purposes of these Regulations:

(a) any officer, employee or agent of a public transport operator

(2) Before exercising a power under paragraph (1) in respect of a passenger, a relevant person shall give the passenger an opportunity to provide reasonable excuse and may request the passenger to provide such information as the relevant person considers necessary to determine whether or not the passenger has reasonable excuse.

joeguevara

Graham wrote: »

Let's take a look at the legislation

But he does have a point when he said, I don’t want to wear my mask as it distressed me and is an exemption. He doesn’t have to show himself getting distressed or provide documentation of having social anxiety. All he has to say is it distressed me.

Hunky Monster

No: I don't care enough

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Except if you read the legislation you can. A simple “I am exempt because a mask causes me severe distress” is enough.

The legislation on reasonable excuses includes:

- Cannot wear a face covering because of a physical or mental illness or a disability, or because it would cause you severe distress.

This is enough to get a Gard to leave you alone. Anything else you say is pure speculation.

Absolute bull, anyone not wearing a mask should be fined unless they can prove with documented evidence that they are exempt.

It’s like saying I can park in a disabled space and just claim I’m disabled and can’t be questioned on it. Horse s*it of the highest order.

patnor1011 wrote: »

Should be but can not be due to multitude other factors which can result from possible enforcement. Data protection, medical records are considered confidential, possible discrimination issues if someone try to stop you....
.

Thankfully this discrimination rubbish isn’t being pandered to by many shops. I’ve see a number of people refused entry to shops without masks, I don’t now if they were trying to claim they were exempt as I was back in the queue but they were sent in their way. There were two separate people in the queue to dunnes the last day sent on their way as they had no masks - absolutely brilliant to see this happening.

No documented evidence for not needing a mask then you need a mask simple as that.

deathbomber

No: other

Protect yourself first and foremost. Any person not wearing a mask as we get well into Autumn and winter are selfish fools and risking their health, it's going to be a tough 4 months or so for the world

Graham

joeguevara wrote: »

He doesn’t have to show himself getting distressed or provide documentation of having social anxiety. All he has to say is it distressed me.

That's not what the legislation says.

a relevant person shall give the passenger an opportunity to provide reasonable excuse and may request the passenger to provide such information as the relevant person considers necessary

Personally I'd prefer to see a blanket "you must", with the state providing alternative support for those that can't.

joeguevara

No: I don't care enough

joeguevara wrote: »

But he does have a point when he said, I don’t want to wear my mask as it distressed me and is an exemption. He doesn’t have to show himself getting distressed or provide documentation of having social anxiety. All he has to say is it distressed me.

And I’d say p*ss off out of here - it’s a mask not a fecking roll of barbed wire. Wearing a mask causes “severe distress” my hole.

Documented evidence or a mask is required that’s how this should be run and in some places at least that’s thankfully how it is being implemented.

Darc19

Nickolas White Petroleum wrote: »

And I’d say p*ss off out of here - it’s a mask not a fecking roll of barbed wire. Wearing a mask causes “severe distress” my hole.

Documented evidence or a mask is required that’s how this should be run and in some places at least that’s thankfully how it is being implemented.

Thankfully most people who create regulations are intelligent and understand that there are people who have a different way of thinking.

1. There are people who would be easily led by anti vaxxer types and will believe in the anti mask bullsh1t. They could be distressed due to their gullibility of belief of false information

2. There are many people who have mild disabilities that could be distressed.

3. There are people who have facial skin conditions that wearing a mask can cause issues.

Once you have 80%+ wearing them, it's overall effectiveness is near optimum

joeguevara

Nickolas White Petroleum wrote: »

And I’d say p*ss off out of here - it’s a mask not a fecking roll of barbed wire. Wearing a mask causes “severe distress” my hole.

Documented evidence or a mask is required that’s how this should be run and in some places at least that’s thankfully how it is being implemented.

I’m the most pro mask person you could meet. But I was explaining how the legislation works. Also seeing as social anxiety is considered a disability under the equality act, which in many cases causes it to be exacerbated when mouth is restricted, refusing is discrimination and is actionable.

Now I did previously give loopholes on what the bus driver could do, but basically for this one, all they have to say is that it distresses them.

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

I really fail to see how masks are helping. The numbers dropped insanely low while nobody was wearing masks and remained that way for months. People were out and about and going about their days at the time.

In fact, since we've made masks mandatory, the case numbers have risen. Could it be that they are actually doing more harm than good? The medical experts have said many times that they can do more harm if not worn correctly.

I certainly don't believe they are doing much good. Good optics though I guess.

bloopy

Deleted User wrote: »

I really fail to see how masks are helping. The numbers dropped insanely low while nobody was wearing masks and remained that way for months. People were out and about and going about their days at the time.

In fact, since we've made masks mandatory, the case numbers have risen. Could it be that they are actually doing more harm than good? The medical experts have said many times that they can do more harm if not worn correctly.

I certainly don't believe they are doing much good. Good optics though I guess.

I have worked throughout the pandemic in a retail business. Once the masks were brought in, all the other rules essentially went out the window - social distancing, coughing into elbow, etc.
People seem to think that the mask is some sort of magic barrier which protects them from anything and everything - they will come right up into your face to ask a question and then practically shout it at you.
Most people are not wearing them properly either as they have become little more than a device to enter a shop with minimal fuss or dirty looks.

Darc19

No: I don't care enough

Darc19 wrote: »

Thankfully most people who create regulations are intelligent and understand that there are people who have a different way of thinking.

1. There are people who would be easily led by anti vaxxer types and will believe in the anti mask bullsh1t. They could be distressed due to their gullibility of belief of false information

2. There are many people who have mild disabilities that could be distressed.

3. There are people who have facial skin conditions that wearing a mask can cause issues.

Once you have 80%+ wearing them, it's overall effectiveness is near optimum

I’m not denying that there are gunuine reasons for not wear a mask but all of these should have no issue having a letter on them (aside from very obviously disabilities) to prove they don’t need it. That’s all I’m saying.

Deleted User wrote: »

I really fail to see how masks are helping. The numbers dropped insanely low while nobody was wearing masks and remained that way for months. People were out and about and going about their days at the time.

In fact, since we've made masks mandatory, the case numbers have risen. Could it be that they are actually doing more harm than good? The medical experts have said many times that they can do more harm if not worn correctly.

I certainly don't believe they are doing much good. Good optics though I guess.

The county is far more open than back them so you can’t compare like that, id ask where would we be without masks!! Things could be much worse.

Also masks aren’t madatory in enough places - they should be mandatory in restaurants and pubs except while eating, absolutely zero tolerance to not wearing them at any other time. As an aside I don’t believe restaurants and pubs should be open at all though.

They should be mandatory of all staff and students of all ages I’m schools at all time except when outside. As an aside I don’t believe schools should be open at all.

Anywhere else indoors they should be mandatory at all times.

patnor1011

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

Nickolas White Petroleum wrote: »

And I’d say p*ss off out of here - it’s a mask not a fecking roll of barbed wire. Wearing a mask causes “severe distress” my hole.

Documented evidence or a mask is required that’s how this should be run and in some places at least that’s thankfully how it is being implemented.

You would be surprised at what else can cause distress to some people.
Like for example reading posts on a mask-wearing topic clearly causes some distress in you.

Ohmeha

No: other

Deleted User wrote: »

I really fail to see how masks are helping. The numbers dropped insanely low while nobody was wearing masks and remained that way for months. People were out and about and going about their days at the time.

In fact, since we've made masks mandatory, the case numbers have risen. Could it be that they are actually doing more harm than good? The medical experts have said many times that they can do more harm if not worn correctly.

I certainly don't believe they are doing much good. Good optics though I guess.

Why haven't cases risen at the exponential growth levels here and in other countries as seen during March and early April? Too much to comprehend for some

patnor1011

No: I don't care enough

patnor1011 wrote: »

You would be surprised at what else can cause distress to some people.
Like for example reading posts on a mask-wearing topic clearly causes some distress in you.

Stupidity annoys me and there is plenty of that around with the anti-mask and anti-restrictions, anti-vax etc posters around here.

patnor1011

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

Nickolas White Petroleum wrote: »

I’m not denying that there are gunuine reasons for not wear a mask but all of these should have no issue having a letter on them (aside from very obviously disabilities) to prove they don’t need it. That’s all I’m saying.

And who is entitled to check these "letters"? Cashiers? Security? Shelf stackers? As if you think that gardai will have time to stand by shops to check if people are "entitled" not to wear them you are in for surprise.

Nickolas White Petroleum wrote: »

The county is far more open than back them so you can’t compare like that, id ask where would we be without masks!! Things could be much worse.

Also masks aren’t madatory in enough places - they should be mandatory in restaurants and pubs except while eating, absolutely zero tolerance to not wearing them at any other time. As an aside I don’t believe restaurants and pubs should be open at all though.

They should be mandatory of all staff and students of all ages I’m schools at all time except when outside. As an aside I don’t believe schools should be open at all.

Anywhere else indoors they should be mandatory at all times.

I see. Let me ask you how long do you think any country can survive with such lockdown you propose?
If you do not like it out there perhaps you can cocoon and stay isolated from this covid mortal danger.

patnor1011

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

Nickolas White Petroleum wrote: »

Stupidity annoys me and there is plenty of that around with the anti-mask and anti-restrictions, anti-vax etc posters around here.

There are very few of those here. You are naive if you think there are only anti and pro-people out there. The simple fact is that as this progress on people start seeing things, compare numbers, and also start asking questions.

patnor1011

No: I don't care enough

patnor1011 wrote: »

And who is entitled to check these "letters"? Cashiers? Security? Shelf stackers? As if you think that gardai will have time to stand by shops to check if people are "entitled" not to wear them you are in for surprise.

Security at the door, bus drivers etc. In many shops I go to door security are already stopping people without masks and making decisions on who does and doesn’t enter. It’s almost like you think this is not already common.

If I park in a disable bay in a shopping centre shop parking attendants have no issue checking who is entitled to park there.

patnor1011 wrote: »

I see. Let me ask you how long do you think any country can survive with such lockdown you propose?
If you do not like it out there perhaps you can cocoon and stay isolated from this covid mortal danger.

The country should never have come out of the lockdown when it did that was a massive error in judgement. If we kept locked down over the summer we could be in a place now with the virus almost gone from the county and we could be able to open even more than we are but much more safely (but not travel into or out of the country allowed bar absolute emergencies). This opinion is strongly supported by experts such as a professor in UCC in virology.

A harder lockdown for a little longer would be much better than a much longer half hearted lockdown we have now.

patnor1011

No: I don't care enough

patnor1011 wrote: »

There are very few of those here. You are naive if you think there are only anti and pro-people out there. The simple fact is that as this progress on people start seeing things, compare numbers, and also start asking questions.

They are the minority but there are a few, one is following you around thanking your posts.

bush

No: other

Nickolas White Petroleum wrote: »

Security at the door, bus drivers etc. In many shops I go to door security are already stopping people without masks and making decisions on who does and doesn’t enter. It’s almost like you think this is not already common.

If I park in a disable bay in a shopping centre shop parking attendants have no issue checking who is entitled to park there.



The country should never have come out of the lockdown when it did that was a massive error in judgement. If we kept locked down over the summer we could be in a place now with the virus almost gone from the county and we could be able to open even more than we are but much more safely (but not travel into or out of the country allowed bar absolute emergencies). This opinion is strongly supported by experts such as a professor in UCC in virology.

A harder lockdown for a little longer would be much better than a much longer half hearted lockdown we have now.

I presume you work at home?

bush

No: I don't care enough

bush wrote: »

I presume you work at home?

I’ve been full time WFH since March yes, prior to that I would have WFH quite regularly.

bush

No: other

Nickolas White Petroleum wrote: »

I’ve been full time WFH since March yes, prior to that I would have WFH quite regularly.

Ye so your grand working away meanwhile everyone else who can't work from home is out of a job

Graham

bush wrote: »

Ye so your grand working away meanwhile everyone else who can't work from home is out of a job

Probably fair to say that's not an accurate summary of reality.

ExMachina1000

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

Was in shop in navan this morning. Again I saw a few individuals strolling in together without masks and ordering breakfast rolls (with taco sauce). I saw the same yesterday.

These people must be either immune or too stupid to read the signs in that shop and every other shop in the country.

Marhay70

Yes: valved

Deleted User wrote: »

I really fail to see how masks are helping. The numbers dropped insanely low while nobody was wearing masks and remained that way for months. People were out and about and going about their days at the time.

In fact, since we've made masks mandatory, the case numbers have risen. Could it be that they are actually doing more harm than good? The medical experts have said many times that they can do more harm if not worn correctly.

I certainly don't believe they are doing much good. Good optics though I guess.

It has always been said that masks are only one part of the toolbox in the fight against Covid. I have never heard it said they are the be all and end all but there's absolutely no defence against stupidity.

Away With The Fairies

Yes: valved

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I really fail to see how masks are helping. The numbers dropped insanely low while nobody was wearing masks and remained that way for months. People were out and about and going about their days at the time.

In fact, since we've made masks mandatory, the case numbers have risen. Could it be that they are actually doing more harm than good? The medical experts have said many times that they can do more harm if not worn correctly.

I certainly don't believe they are doing much good. Good optics though I guess.

Masks don't stop you from getting it. If you wear a mask and stand close to an infected person, you'll still get it.

What it can help with though, you might not get covid as bad. This is why social distancing and masks are so important. So that could explain the cases going up and little deaths lately.

Away With The Fairies

Yes: valved

deathbomber wrote: »

Protect yourself first and foremost. Any person not wearing a mask as we get well into Autumn and winter are selfish fools and risking their health, it's going to be a tough 4 months or so for the world

Any person that vulnerable that they can't wear a mask, shouldn't be out.

Mrs OBumble

Yes: homemade

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

Any person that vulnerable that they can't wear a mask, shouldn't be out.

Plenty of people who can't mask due to sensory issues don't have Covid-relevant diseases.

Loafing Oaf

No: I don't care enough

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

Masks don't stop you from getting it. If you wear a mask and stand close to an infected person, you'll still get it.

Surely makes it less likely?

paw patrol

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

Nickolas White Petroleum wrote: »

Security at the door, bus drivers etc. In many shops I go to door security are already stopping people without masks and making decisions on who does and doesn’t enter. It’s almost like you think this is not already common.
.

but that is what you saw legal?

does the legislation for retail (not transport) say it much be the manager? not staff?

As defined by a responsible person

“responsible person”, in relation to a relevant premises, means each of the following:

a) the occupier of the relevant premises,

(b) the manager of the relevant premises, and

(c) any other person for the time being in charge of the relevant premises;

A worker is also defined as

“worker”, in relation to a relevant premises, means a person working at the relevant premises under a contract of employment or a contract for service.

so as to distinguish the worker from the responsible person

(4) A responsible person shall take reasonable steps to engage with persons entering or in the relevant premises to inform them of the requirements of paragraph (1) and to promote compliance with those requirements.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2020/si/296/made/en/print


if you don't want to wear a mask , ask to speak to the manager only:pac:

Away With The Fairies

Yes: valved

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Surely makes it less likely?

I think you're more likely to be asymptomatic. So you can still have the virus.

Away With The Fairies

No: I don't care enough

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

I think you're more likely to be asymptomatic. So you can still have the virus.

It stops the virus spread out so it has to also give some protection on it coming it - how couldn’t it!

Any bit of extra protection is worth it and I personally think masks offer a lot more protection than not wearing one.

Away With The Fairies

Yes: valved

The government made masks mandatory in certain places. Then there's certain places that it hasn't been made mandatory, like in offices and factories.

I know of a few offices and factories that employers made masks mandatory in their workplace and some that hasn't. This got me thinking. Is there a reason for workplaces not mandating masks themselves? Can it become a legal issue if they go against the HSE advice and mandate masks anyways?

Marhay70

Yes: valved

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Was in shop in navan this morning. Again I saw a few individuals strolling in together without masks and ordering breakfast rolls (with taco sauce). I saw the same yesterday.

These people must be either immune or too stupid to read the signs in that shop and every other shop in the country.

I don't know why staff don't object to serving these people. They don't seem to realise that they are putting their own and their families' health at risk by interacting with them, not to mention the dozens or even hundreds of people who come into the shop.
Personally, I don't have any difficulty in pointing out if if someone is not wearing a mask, too many people in Ireland think that legislation is written for the other guy.

ExMachina1000

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

Marhay70 wrote: »

I don't know why staff don't object to serving these people. They don't seem to realise that they are putting their own and their families' health at risk by interacting with them, not to mention the dozens or even hundreds of people who come into the shop.
Personally, I don't have any difficulty in pointing out if if someone is not wearing a mask, too many people in Ireland think that legislation is written for the other guy.

Probably afraid of the individuals kicking off or taking the business to court on discrimination charges.

Covid19

As a sales rep, travelling across the West and North West, I am shocked at the large amount of people, largely older farmers, older tradesmen, young adult farmers/tradesmen and a good percentage of elderly women who will not wear a mask and make no apology for it.
It would be an interesting statistic to see, especially now that we are beyond two weeks since the large demonstrations occurred in Dublin, if clusters of the virus have begun to be generated originating from those who attended such demonstrations. Theoretically, if what we are being told about masks is true, we should be seeing a rise in cases and even deaths around about now.
I am all for wearing masks, and I have a reasonable understanding of the science behind virus transmission, but if there is not so much as a blip on the radar of cases over the next week or so, I would have to question the status of the virus and our responses. The same could be said for any country which has seen mass demonstrations. What are your thoughts?

timetogo1

No: I don't care enough

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Probably afraid of the individuals kicking off or taking the business to court on discrimination charges.

Which ground of discrimination would they be sued for?
You can refuse admission as long as its not based on one of the grounds of discrimination.

Marhay70

Yes: valved

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Probably afraid of the individuals kicking off or taking the business to court on discrimination charges.

Is the place or the individuals concerned, known for "kicking off" ?
If so probably better to stay out of there anyway.

ExMachina1000

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

Marhay70 wrote: »

Is the place or the individuals concerned, known for "kicking off" ?
If so probably better to stay out of there anyway.

The shop is just a regular Spar or Daybreak. Totally normal shop.

joeguevara

timetogo1 wrote: »

Which ground of discrimination would they be sued for?
You can refuse admission as long as its not based on one of the grounds of discrimination.

Social anxiety is a disability recognised by the Equality Act. Becoming distressed when restricting breathing whether real or imagined in a large number of cases is a symptom of social anxiety, becoming too distressed to wear a mask is an exemption. So refusing someone could be considered discrimination on a disability. Now chances of that are slim, but that’s a reason that staff members are not taking the chance to challenge people. In reality, they don’t want to get in an argument.

Marhay70

Yes: valved

joeguevara wrote: »

Social anxiety is a disability recognised by the Equality Act. Becoming distressed when restricting breathing whether real or imagined in a large number of cases is a symptom of social anxiety, becoming too distressed to wear a mask is an exemption. So refusing someone could be considered discrimination on a disability. Now chances of that are slim, but that’s a reason that staff members are not taking the chance to challenge people. In reality, they don’t want to get in an argument.

Put up a sign quoting the legislation, no argument. The onus is on the person seeking dispensation from the legislation to prove eligibility.
My own opinion is that shop owners and managers only see the bottom line and put pressure on their staff to cooperate. This is particularly true of the type of shop mentioned, many of which would be staffed by zero hour contract workers but, as I say, that's my opinion.
.

Yes: surgical

Social anxiety can also be heightened for those who suffer with it and are compliant, but yet have to put up with other people in shops ignoring the mandatory mask rule or maintaining social distancing - another thing that is not being enforced well enough.

In my experience people with social anxiety try to maintain distance and minimise their interactions with other people. They're not going to go into a shop looking to draw attention to themselves by not wearing one, or arguing over wearing a mask.

suicide_circus

Out and about in Dublin city centre today and there is a noticeable decrease of mask wearing in shops.

suicide_circus

Marhay70 wrote: »

Put up a sign quoting the legislation, no argument. The onus is on the person seeking dispensation from the legislation to prove eligibility.
My own opinion is that shop owners and managers only see the bottom line and put pressure on their staff to cooperate. This is particularly true of the type of shop mentioned, many of which would be staffed by zero hour contract workers but, as I say, that's my opinion.
.

A shop assistant or manager is not in a position to demand documentation proving a disability.

joeguevara

This whole exemption thing is the craziest thing ever but also as it’s a completely new we followed other countries. Charities and Care Orgsnisations are coming up with novel ideas for a person with an exemption to show that they require it without bringing too much attention on themselves. Hidden Illness charity have a sunflower lanyard for people with autism.

But no one ever really followed through what happens next. No other disability really has the potential to harm others or be harmed yourself. For instance pre Covid no mask requirements if a person is in a wheelchair and you let them in their not going to Be any harm to others or themselves. Now in Covid, with masks, if a person has a severe lung incapacity and is exempt from wearing a mask, now They go in and get coughed on, they could potentially die. Or if they had Covid, they could go round transmittting infection. Surely if masks weren’t able to be worn, they should be offered a shopping service drop and collect. Equality is not about everyone doing exactly the same thing, it’s about offering extra assistance or arrangements to ensure that they have access to the same goods and services as someone not falling under.

It’s crazy that legislation allows people most vulnerable opportunities to put themselves in grave danger.

joeguevara

suicide_circus wrote: »

A shop assistant or manager is not in a position to demand documentation proving a disability.

Could you imagine some disbelieving shopkeepers proving disability like Michael Caine

https://youtu.be/14nilke-mtQ

suicide_circus

No: I don't care enough

suicide_circus wrote: »

A shop assistant or manager is not in a position to demand documentation proving a disability.

Says who?

If you park in a disabled parking space they are so why not for other reasons?

Saying otherwise is just making excuses and pandering to the anti-mask brigade.

Hand in Your Pants

Morans, so many morans everywhere, how dare they, idiots

moonage

Nickolas White Petroleum wrote: »

Absolute bull, anyone not wearing a mask should be fined unless they can prove with documented evidence that they are exempt.

In the legislation for public transport it is not stated that the passenger has to provide written documentation to back up their reasonable excuse.

2) Before exercising a power under paragraph (1) in respect of a passenger, a relevant person shall give the passenger an opportunity to provide reasonable excuse and may request the passenger to provide such information as the relevant person considers necessary to determine whether or not the passenger has reasonable excuse.

The legislation for shops seems less stingent.

4) A responsible person shall take reasonable steps to engage with persons entering or in the relevant premises to inform them of the requirements of paragraph (1) and to promote compliance with those requirements.

These mandatory face coverings regulations expire on the 5th October 2020. Hopefully they won't be renewed.

moonage

No: I don't care enough

moonage wrote: »

These mandatory face coverings regulations expire on the 5th October 2020. Hopefully they won't be renewed.

To me “reasonable excuse” would need to be backed up by a letter from a doctor or similar otherwise it’s not “reasonable”.

Hopefully they will be strengthened when they are renewed. Why on earth would you not want these important regulations renewed?

By 5th of October we could be very lightly looking at a lot more strict regulations or even lockdown after the outbreaks and spread caused by reopening schools.