Masks

pm1977x

fryup wrote: »

where are all the masks???

watch this

Any chance of a summary, quarantine or no I don't have 1 hour 11mins to throw away on some random youtube video?

cryptocurrency

fryup wrote: »

where are all the masks???

watch this

Serpantza ...lolz

fryup

No: I don't care enough

pm1977x wrote: »

Any chance of a summary, quarantine or no I don't have 1 hour 11mins to throw away on some random youtube video?

its basically to do with the chinese practice of Diagou

Daigou is a form of cross-border exporting in which an individual or a syndicated group of exporters outside China purchases commodities for customers in China for quick profit

its happening at the moment with masks ...recently it happen with baby food in Australia, shorter video

cryptocurrency

fryup wrote: »

its basically to do with the chinese practice of Diagou



its happening at moment with masks ...recently it happen with baby food in Australia, shorter video

Not sure about you but i've done it with loads of stuff i couldn't get here

Manion

I not too sure what people want the government to do now when it is so challenging getting PPE for ordinary people.

https://www.businesspost.ie/health/hse-audit-large-amounts-of-ppe-from-china-unfit-for-use-by-frontline-staff-0ac8084f

If they made wearing masks mandatory or even advisable weeks ago potentially we would have a lot fewer cases but also we'ed likely to have no PPE for those who really need it now. I think this reality factored into the advise.

cryptocurrency

Manion wrote: »

I not too sure what people want the government to do now when it is so challenging getting PPE for ordinary people.

https://www.businesspost.ie/health/hse-audit-large-amounts-of-ppe-from-china-unfit-for-use-by-frontline-staff-0ac8084f

If they made wearing masks mandatory or even advisable weeks ago potentially we would have a lot fewer cases but also we'ed likely to have no PPE for those who really need it now. I think this reality factored into the advise.

That is exactly why they didn't support it. Washing your hands with soap become the new sanitizer as they knew thye had none.

cryptocurrency

Manion wrote: »

I not too sure what people want the government to do now when it is so challenging getting PPE for ordinary people.

https://www.businesspost.ie/health/hse-audit-large-amounts-of-ppe-from-china-unfit-for-use-by-frontline-staff-0ac8084f

If they made wearing masks mandatory or even advisable weeks ago potentially we would have a lot fewer cases but also we'ed likely to have no PPE for those who really need it now. I think this reality factored into the advise.

Training. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xLjCfmx0iE

Count yourself trained now.

millb

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113059152&postcount=9703


I'm not sure who this company are? Anyway IRRC they went on overtime to supply China and Italy in Jan / Feb.. Nobody has said much about them since then (until Harris mentioned them Thursday)
where they source raw material / who owns them / whether they are export only... working 24x7 etc etc.

What insight they did or did not provide for HSE procurement?

The likes of Intel and many Pharma plants have brill PPE systems and even the DIY sector plus knitwear - garment producers all have a role and inputs to make not to mention www

...... here is an informative article
https://www.bmj.com/content/350/bmj.h694/infographic

Bob24

Manion wrote: »

I not too sure what people want the government to do now when it is so challenging getting PPE for ordinary people.

https://www.businesspost.ie/health/hse-audit-large-amounts-of-ppe-from-china-unfit-for-use-by-frontline-staff-0ac8084f

If they made wearing masks mandatory or even advisable weeks ago potentially we would have a lot fewer cases but also we'ed likely to have no PPE for those who really need it now. I think this reality factored into the advise.

For a starter they could stop lying and instead start being honest with the population.

I.e. stop saying that masks are useless and instead start saying that while they are useful for now the priority is it to provide supply for the most exposed medical staff to protect the people who are exposing their own health to keep our health system running and thus save our lives.

At some point we will have more supply of masks and they might have to recommend wearing them in order to help release the lockdown. How will it look if all of a sudden they start saying masks are recommended/mandatory after having said for weeks that they were useless?

cryptocurrency

millb wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113059152&postcount=9703


I'm not sure who this company are? Anyway IRRC they went on overtime to supply China and Italy in Jan / Feb.. Nobody has said much about them since then (until Harris mentioned them Thursday)
where they source raw material / who owns them / whether they are export only... working 24x7 etc etc.

What insight they did or did not provide for HSE procurement?

The likes of Intel and many Pharma plants have brill PPE systems and even the DIY sector plus knitwear - garment producers all have a role and inputs to make not to mention www

...... here is an informative article
https://www.bmj.com/content/350/bmj.h694/infographic

Intel use coveralls and as you know this is useless or requires many years of ninja training or both

jackofalltrades

Yes: other

Manion wrote: »

I not too sure what people want the government to do now when it is so challenging getting PPE for ordinary people.

https://www.businesspost.ie/health/hse-audit-large-amounts-of-ppe-from-china-unfit-for-use-by-frontline-staff-0ac8084f

If they made wearing masks mandatory or even advisable weeks ago potentially we would have a lot fewer cases but also we'ed likely to have no PPE for those who really need it now. I think this reality factored into the advise.

1. Be honest with the public about masks

2. Encourage people to make their own fabric masks at home and wear them when they're outside

3. Provide informational videos about the proper use of disposable masks and gloves

These simple steps alone could make a huge difference

cryptocurrency

jackofalltrades wrote: »

1. Be honest with the public about masks

2. Encourage people to make their own fabric masks at home and wear them when they're outside

3. Provide informational videos about the proper use of disposable masks and gloves

These simple steps alone could make a huge difference

Are you saying there is a great big mask cover up that is costing lives

khalessi

Yes: surgical

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Are you saying there is a great big mask cover up that is costing lives

Basically yes

LAst week during a rte live session a journalist asked should we be wearing masks in public like other countries?

He got a fudged response along lines of masks help prevent spread of infection and have some protective measures for health workers and he mutter reast of response re public


This fidged response has to do with a shortage of masks at the time and they didnt want a rush on masks

Today a similar question and the response was essentially they take their lead from WHO


At the moment the WHO are looking at reviewing their policy on public and masks.

2u2me

khalessi wrote: »

Basically yes

Eric Weinstein put it beautifully on the Joe Rogan podcast, they should have been open from the start, put their hands up and admitted they had a shortage. Instead they continue to lie and say we don't need them. Utterly despicable.

YFlyer

cryptocurrency wrote: »

That is exactly why they didn't support it. Washing your hands with soap become the new sanitizer as they knew thye had none.

Are you saying that washing with soap and water is not effective?

Wibbs

Yes: other

Arrival wrote: »

Once the information came out about it having a gestation period of up to 14 days, while still being infectious in asymptomatic people, it was fairly easy to understand the possibility of it spreading globally.

Actually A that wasn't widely known until well into February. Indeed the press conference I posted earlier from the 5th of March with our own infectious diseases "expert" Cormican stated that this was not the case, that viral shedding in asymptomatic people was of very low risk, so low that if you were living with someone who had contact with an infected person and they weren't showing symptoms, you should live your life as normally as possible. That was as dumb as a rock statement to make when A) things were still up in the air and when evidence was already in the public domain, never mind in the medical domain that this was foolish advice to be handing out to the Irish public as gospel.

People's memories tend to be highly selective after the fact and timeframes contract. And we'll see this with masks as they become a "thing" and many who said they were of no value will no do turnabout and forget they ever said such a thing. We're all prophets in hindsight and pessimists will eventually end up being right. The stopped clock being right twice a day principle.

Manion

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Training. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xLjCfmx0iE

Count yourself trained now.

Very condescending. Good case in point of people jumping to conclusions and hearing what they want. I wrote one thing but you read a lot into it that wasn't there.

Bob24 wrote: »

For a starter they could stop lying and instead start being honest with the population.

I.e. stop saying that masks are useless and instead start saying that while they are useful for now the priority is it to provide supply for the most exposed medical staff to protect the people who are exposing their own health to keep our health system running and thus save our lives.

At some point we will have more supply of masks and they might have to recommend wearing them in order to help release the lockdown. How will it look if all of a sudden they start saying masks are recommended/mandatory after having said for weeks that they were useless?

Not sure the government ever stated they where useless. Pretty certain the advise was that you don't need to use them to use them if not sick. I also think people are in general not capably of understanding complex messaging and that things are changing and the advise is evolving with. Much rather attribute maliciousness or incompetently as thats easy. I won't think any less of them if the advise is updated to recommend and later make mandatory the wearing of masks. I'd assume we've reached a point where thats the best guidance.

Remember in the first weeks of this when the advise was everyone with any symptom get tested and we had 96% of those tested coming back negative while frontline medical staff were waiting over a week for an appointment. The advise changed on testing so it was more targeted. It was the right decision even with obvious shortcomings.

khalessi

Yes: surgical

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually A that wasn't widely known until well into February. Indeed the press conference I posted earlier from the 5th of March with our own infectious diseases "expert" Cormican stated that this was not the case, that viral shedding in asymptomatic people was of very low risk, so low that if you were living with someone who had contact with an infected person and they weren't showing symptoms, you should live your life as normally as possible. That was as dumb as a rock statement to make when A) things were still up in the air and when evidence was already in the public domain, never mind in the medical domain that this was foolish advice to be handing out to the Irish public as gospel.

People's memories tend to be highly selective after the fact and timeframes contract. And we'll see this with masks as they become a "thing" and many who said they were of no value will no do turnabout and forget they ever said such a thing. We're all prophets in hindsight and pessimists will eventually end up being right. The stopped clock being right twice a day principle.

I had been following this from January over the social media and it had been said in Late Jan and Feb about 14 day incubation period and they were querying up to 28 days in some cases back then. It just took us a little time to get on the band wagon

Wibbs

Yes: other

khalessi wrote: »

Today a similar question and the response was essentially they take their lead from WHO


At the moment the WHO are looking at reviewing their policy on public and masks.

And the second the WHO say yes the HSE will jump. God forbid they had independent thought, especially because of how the same WHO's softly softly approach has been one major factor in the spread of this disease worldwide.

Bob24

Manion wrote: »

Not sure the government ever stated they where useless. Pretty certain the advise was that you don't need to use them to use them if not sick. I also think people are in general not capably of understanding complex messaging and that things are changing and the advise is evolving with. Much rather attribute maliciousness or incompetently as thats easy. I won't think any less of them if the advise is updated to recommend and later make mandatory the wearing of masks. I'd assume we've reached a point where thats the best guidance.

The HSE clearly states that “using masks is unlikely to be of any benefit if you are not sick”: https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/coronavirus/protect-yourself.html

That is pretty much the same as saying they are useless to you if you don’t have symptoms (which is wrong in two ways: a good mask will offer partial protection against contamination, and there are asymptomatic cases for which a mask would prevent them from contaminating others).

And I think most people are capable of understanding that constrained ressources have to be managed in a way which preserves the operational capability of our health system. It is not rocket science that if frontline workers are not protected and many get sick, then there will be no one to take care of patients anymore so it is the top priority.

I think what the government is more afraid of here is to be held accountable for our lack of capability to deliver more PPE (through strategic stocks or local production) which doesn’t compare well with some Asian countries; rather than the public not understanding why health workers have to be given priority.

cryptocurrency

YFlyer wrote: »

Are you saying that washing with soap and water is not effective?

no but they have dismissed anything they know in short supply

Wibbs

Yes: other

cryptocurrency wrote: »

no but they have dismissed anything they know in short supply

Well... in the case of hand hygiene hand washing with soap is considered the premier and most effective way to kill and remove pathogens from the skin. Hand sanitiser is for times when soap and water isn't available. Even when it is - and any medical types forgive me if I get the ratio wrong in clinical settings, it's been a while since I was told abiut it - the ratio is something like four uses of hand sanitiser to one of soap and water.

So hand washing with soap and water is tops and good advice. Masks in the community are completely dismissed however, even when they're considered absolutely vital in clinical settings. For both the infected and the attending medical staff. Just like handwashing and sanitiser, but unlike handwashing and sanitiser masks appear to magically lose their potency the second the leave a clinical setting. That's the big difference in the advice.

The Hound Gone Wild

Wibbs wrote: »

Some pharmacies are being responsible and not price gouging, some are very much not.

How do you know without knowing the cost price for these pharmacies?

Wibbs

Yes: other

2u2me wrote: »

Eric Weinstein put it beautifully on the Joe Rogan podcast, they should have been open from the start, put their hands up and admitted they had a shortage. Instead they continue to lie and say we don't need them. Utterly despicable.

Good video and I agree with him in the sense of we need to take control back for ourselves in the community. No revolution or heads on pikes as he was suggesting required. This is not America.

However, we need to ignore the talking heads and their long list of laggardly responses to this both in the HSE and the WHO(the former lick the slow moving arse of the latter). Yes our frontline medical services DO need PPE first and they should get them, but hey HSE, that's your fcuking job!, not theirs or ours. And since they won't take public donations of PPE, then what's left is us in the community to use them if we already have them, and more, to make our own and get this message out and masks on faces across this country.

Wibbs

Yes: other

The Hound Gone Wild wrote: »

How do you know without knowing the cost price for these pharmacies?

I know a pharmacist and they were paying the same for boxes of basic surgical masks as others, costs which had gone up, but they weren't charging the same retail prices as some. IE 2 quid a mask as opposed to 10.

Manion

Bob24 wrote: »

The HSE clearly states that “using masks is unlikely to be of any benefit if you are not sick”: https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/coronavirus/protect-yourself.html

That is pretty much the same as saying they are useless to you if you don’t have symptoms (which is wrong in two ways: a good mask will offer partial protection against contamination, and there are asymptomatic cases for which a mask would prevent them from contaminating others).

And I think most people are capable of understanding that constrained ressources have to be managed in a way which preserves the operational capability of our health system. It is not rocket science that if frontline workers are not protected and many get sick, then there will be no one to take care of patients anymore so it is the top priority.

I think what the government is more afraid of here is to be held accountable for our lack of capability to deliver more PPE (through strategic stocks or local production) which doesn’t compare well with some Asian countries; rather than the public not understanding why health workers have to be given priority.

OK so they didn't say they were useless, that comes from you.

cnocbui

YFlyer wrote: »

Are you saying that washing with soap and water is not effective?

It it's possible he meant the blindingly obvious, which is that facilities for washing hands, and the opportunities available to use them, are significantly fewer than the times one needs to decontaminate ones hands, which is where hand sanitiser comes in to play.

2u2me

Wibbs wrote: »

. No revolution or heads on pikes as he was suggesting required. This is not America.

It should have been especially useful having a doctor as Taoiseach. I do agree with Weinstein's point though about having more of a wartime leader, they don't put up with **** and give it to you straight.

Bob24

Manion wrote: »

OK so they didn't say they were useless, that comes from you.

If the only point to argue against my post is that “unlikely to be of any benefit” is significantly different advice from saying “useless”, I think it is a fairly weak point (I never said I was quoting the exact wording of the HSE website btw, I was just summarising in a word the general message sent by Irish authorities).

If we leave the linguistic argument aside and stick to the wording of the HSE, “unlikely to be of any benefit” is a fallacious statement in the exact same way as I explained in my post.

YFlyer

cnocbui wrote: »

It it's possible he meant the blindingly obvious, which is that facilities for washing hands, and the opportunities available to use them, are significantly fewer than the times one needs to decontaminate ones hands, which is where hand sanitiser comes in to play.

He said washing your hands with soap become the new sanitizer. Not using alcohol hand sanitizer as an alternative if there is no soap and water facility available.