Masks

patnor1011

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

SeaBreezes wrote: »

AiDS/Cancer wont kill you directly. The comorbidities it allows run riot in your body will kill you.

Excess deaths is the only measure really and in most countries that shows we have been undercounting Covid deaths.

Live with what exactly?
A disease that attacks the heart/kidney/testes/lungs silently each time? Asymptomatic cases also have heart danage?
A disease you can get every year and each time its more severe?
A disease that in 6 months has more than one strain and you can get each strain within the same 6 months?
A disease that leaves long term implications we still dont understand, that scientists are still figuring out?


How can you even suggest we 'live' with it when we STILL dont even know what it fully does?
Strokes, heart attacks, in young people months after what seemed like a mild flu?

When we know so little, why not err on the side of caution? Just one year, 6 more months would give science the tools so we can make more informed decisions. Why not wait for that?

Of course. Take it from people who have to live with other much more deadlier viruses around. There are far worse chances to survive other viruses or far worse damage to survivors and people are not running away from these places which have them.
What exactly are you saying here? That we are going to pull on some miracle and make covid disappear?
Not going to happen precisely because of what you wrote and I underlined in your quote. This is exactly how coronaviruses operate and why vaccine will never work for any them. Incidentally flu vaccine confirms it too.
COVID is here, is here to stay and we will have to learn to live with it whether you like it or not you can not wish it away.

These long term implications you mention while recorded are not guaranteed and not even that common. Of course there will be some odd cases and probably more in the west than in other places but that is mainly due to lifestyle and in other instances due to genes.
Healthy body and mind always fare better so perhaps we should think more about that instead of scaring people with apocalypse.
Nearly every prediction about how bad it will be failed to materialize I say it is about time we start to tackle this issue ourselves rather than waiting for something which may never come.

robinph

No: I don't care enough

patnor1011 wrote: »

COVID is here, is here to stay and we will have to learn to live with it whether you like it or not you can not wish it away.

In which case wearing a mask seems like a perfectly sensible idea to enable us to learn to live with it and get on with our lives, whilst not killing the vulnerable person next to you

joeguevara

Tzardine wrote: »

I work in the public sector, we have been told this morning to expect a new regulation to make face masks mandatory in all shared spaces - i.e. everywhere in the offices. Coming in the next week.

Anybody else heard anything on this.

I’m going out on a limb to answer this.

Any time I’ve heard ‘I work in the public sector and we were told at a special meeting that blah blah blah’ it is BS.

is_that_so

No: other

joeguevara wrote: »

I’m going out on a limb to answer this.

Any time I’ve heard ‘I work in the public sector and we were told at a special meeting that blah blah blah’ it is BS.

Or maybe what you say is BS. We're internet randomers, who are at best guessing what's going on in these situations. Alleged past actions is no proof of it supposedly continuing.

SeaBreezes

No: I don't care enough

patnor1011 wrote: »

Nearly every prediction about how bad it will be failed to materialize I say it is about time we start to tackle this issue ourselves rather than waiting for something which may never come.

Warning people of Cardiac involvement in asymptomatic cases saves lives, and gives people the chance to treat recovery appropriately. Its not panic mongering its fact
sharing. Its how science and medicine works.

And studies show it is common in covid19 cases.
Long term we have no.clue yet what this virus can do..but so far.indications are not great, hence the caution.

Most oprimisitic predictions failed miserablely.

We are tackling this ourselves? Masks and lockdowns, curbing the physical spread giving science time to catch up. Even now in 6 months understanding has grown so much that treatment is far far improved.

What we have done has saved numerous lives already, seems common sense to me to follow simple rules like masks social distancing, curbing local.clusters to give us time.

Its not forever, by Jan we will know much much more.

TheChizler

McGiver wrote: »

Excellent. It is required indeed.

Is there evidence it's spreading in office spaces due to the lack of masks? I haven't read anything to that effect.

Pitch n Putt

TheChizler wrote: »

Is there evidence it's spreading in office spaces due to the lack of masks? I haven't read anything to that effect.

There was zero evidence it was spreading in retail outlets without masks too.

Look how that turned out.

Masks and face coverings were only adopted here in this country to be seen to be doing something

Same as Kildare Offaly Laois so called lockdown.

It’s long past the time for someone to actually make a stance and move the country forward instead of this fear driven rubbish from all the so called experts and media outlets.

Pitch n Putt

Yes: valved

Pitch n Putt wrote: »

There was zero evidence it was spreading in retail outlets without masks too.

Look how that turned out.

Masks and face coverings were only adopted here in this country to be seen to be doing something

Same as Kildare Offaly Laois so called lockdown.

It’s long past the time for someone to actually make a stance and move the country forward instead of this fear driven rubbish from all the so called experts and media outlets.

Soon people will be claiming there is no specific study proving there is transmission in tesco but aldi and lidl aren't safe

odyssey06

TheChizler wrote: »

Is there evidence it's spreading in office spaces due to the lack of masks? I haven't read anything to that effect.

I haven't read anything specifically about office type workplaces.

Perhaps they are extrapolating from the studies on droplets not dispersing in enclosed spaces where the ventilation may be inadequate. Some offices may have better aircons than others but then there's lifts and stairwells to consider.

Probably most places keeping windows open etc at the moment but come the cold weather, will be a different story.

And I'm not suggesting this is the only reason for doing so, but I wonder if there's an element of - well if people have to go around with masks on all day maybe the company will be more inclined to keep them WFH.

joeguevara

Pitch n Putt wrote: »

There was zero evidence it was spreading in retail outlets without masks too.

Look how that turned out.

Masks and face coverings were only adopted here in this country to be seen to be doing something

Same as Kildare Offaly Laois so called lockdown.

It’s long past the time for someone to actually make a stance and move the country forward instead of this fear driven rubbish from all the so called experts and media outlets.

Ok, firstly the reason there was no evidence of transmission in supermarkets is due to the fact there was no contract tracing. Did you ever consider why during lockdown there was exponential growth of infection when we were on lockdown and the only place people were going was supermarkets? Do you not think that at least some of the infections may have been transmitted there.

Masks were adopted here due to new understanding of transmission and to assist opening up. Nothing to do with seeing to be doing something.

No idea why Kildare Offaly and Laois were mentioned.

As for the last paragraph. Apart from cliched vitriol, what isn’t being moved forward? What in your opinion is being held back?

Pitch n Putt

joeguevara wrote: »

Ok, firstly the reason there was no evidence of transmission in supermarkets is due to the fact there was no contract tracing. Did you ever consider why during lockdown there was exponential growth of infection when we were on lockdown and the only place people were going was supermarkets? Do you not think that at least some of the infections may have been transmitted there.

Masks were adopted here due to new understanding of transmission and to assist opening up. Nothing to do with seeing to be doing something.

No idea why Kildare Offaly and Laois were mentioned.

As for the last paragraph. Apart from cliched vitriol, what isn’t being moved forward? What in your opinion is being held back?

Did you see any supermarket close down because the staff who were working there 8 plus hours per day were infected?

It didn’t happen.

The wasn’t a mention of a cluster in a supermarket until after the masks recommendation was brought in.

The Kildare Offaly And Laois lockdown effort was a carbon copy of Leicester in England and was another ridiculous decision

The whole country is being held back 10 days with zero deaths and a handful of people in hospital less than 40 from a population of nearly 5 million 6 people in ICU and the bullshi1e reporting of cases goes on and on.

Most of these cases are recovered within 10 days

Whatever the reasoning about trying to hold on to this virus as a deadly killer which is what’s being pushed to the people is baffling to say the least.

weldoninhio

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

Well he said something about people not washing face masks properly. And if you're of the cohort that thinks it's all a hoax, I think he would be right on that one.

Cohort that thinks it’s a hoax? Even the zealots have admitted to not following the HSPC policy on washing masks.

odyssey06

Pitch n Putt wrote: »

The whole country is being held back 10 days with zero deaths and a handful of people in hospital less than 40 from a population of nearly 5 million 6 people in ICU and the bullshi1e reporting of cases goes on and on. Most of these cases are recovered within 10 days
Whatever the reasoning about trying to hold on to this virus as a deadly killer which is what’s being pushed to the people is baffling to say the least.

The figure you didn't post was our spare hospital beds and ICU capacity.
It's not baffling because this is an infectious disease which has the potential to overwhelm our health service.

From the main thread: 287 critical care beds in use compared to 286 same time last week. 41 available as of last night.

odyssey06

weldoninhio wrote: »

Cohort that thinks it’s a hoax? Even the zealots have admitted to not following the HSPC policy on washing masks.

Sometimes during this pandemic I washed my hands for less than 20 seconds.
But hand washing is important and I urge you to do so.
It neither makes me a zealot for hand washing or in the cohort who think this is a hoax.

See, we are all capable of distinguishing between optimal recommendations and what is essential for effectiveness.
As you are when it comes to the thread depth on your tyres and NCTs.

patnor1011

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

robinph wrote: »

In which case wearing a mask seems like a perfectly sensible idea to enable us to learn to live with it and get on with our lives, whilst not killing the vulnerable person next to you

Possibly. I stated many times I have no problem with people who wear them and even less of a problem with people who do not.
The problem here is that whole issue is being pushed to such extremes that god forbid you are the one who walks somewhere without a mask. I do not mind people who will stare at you but there are plenty of covid zealots in the open who will start shouting insults - how do you propose we make them sensitive to the idea that some people can't and will not wear them?

This whole notion of "not killing the vulnerable person next to you" is wrong. Vulnerable people are vulnerable people who for the most part live with their vulnerability for quite some time and while vulnerable they are again for the most part not retarded. They know how to deal with dangers and are perfectly capable of deciding if something is worth the risk or not. Most of those who are unable of making decisions for themselves already rely on family or carers and they can make an appropriate decision for them.

While it is nice to show how progressive and compassionate we are by posting about it on the internet we as a society and individuals are not able to live by these fantastic ideas. If you do not believe then next time you go shopping spend some time in the car park and take note of how many people elect to park close to entrance ignoring disabled parking signs. Or how many people do not bother to stand up on a bus to let older people or pregnant women sit on "their" place.

What this virus cause and what we are being told are two entirely different things and that is the main reason most of the people do not bother wearing masks or actually refusing to wear one.

Loafing Oaf

No: I don't care enough

patnor1011 wrote: »

there are plenty of covid zealots in the open who will start shouting insults -

Are there? Have you actually witnessed this?

odyssey06

patnor1011 wrote: »

While it is nice to show how progressive and compassionate we are by posting about it on the internet we as a society and individuals are not able to live by these fantastic ideas. If you do not believe then next time you go shopping spend some time in the car park and take note of how many people elect to park close to entrance ignoring disabled parking signs. Or how many people do not bother to stand up on a bus to let older people or pregnant women sit on "their" place.
What this virus cause and what we are being told are two entirely different things and that is the main reason most of the people do not bother wearing masks or actually refusing to wear one.

Or maybe a large number of the people not wearing masks are the selfish lazy inconsiderate pig ignorant types who park in the disabled spots, don't give up their seats in buses etc and are being treated accordingly.

That's why it was never going to be enough in this country to rely on all the people doing the responsible thing when it comes to masks - or anything else related to this pandemic.

It would be neater if the risks of the virus were spread more evenly in the population, and if the wearing of masks was mainly about protecting yourself.
But instead, we're being asked to wear masks primarily to protect others, a specific cohort of others.

Pitch n Putt

odyssey06 wrote: »

The figure you didn't post was our spare hospital beds and ICU capacity.
It's not baffling because this is an infectious disease which has the potential to overwhelm our health service.

From the main thread: 287 critical care beds in use compared to 286 same time last week. 41 available as of last night.

Overwhelm our healthcare system same as every other year with the seasonal flu.
We can’t hold the whole country to ransom for a mismanaged healthcare system.

And NPHET is made up of these same people with the one agenda of protecting the system.

Theres a bit of a conflict of interest in their decision making.

odyssey06

Pitch n Putt wrote: »

Overwhelm our healthcare system same as every other year with the seasonal flu.
We can’t hold the whole country to ransom for a mismanaged healthcare system.
And NPHET is made up of these same people with the one agenda of protecting the system.
Theres a bit of a conflict of interest in their decision making.

Not remotely the same as any year, given that the system barely copes with seasonal flu (for which we have somewhat effective vaccine).
Throw coronavirus second wave into the mix and it is game over.
It's the same equation almost every country in Europe is worrying about come winter, we have less capacity in ours so it is especially acute, our restrictions therefore tend to be more conservative \ lag those of comparable countries.

But in the context of this thread, wearing masks isn't holding the country to ransom.

patnor1011

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Most oprimisitic predictions failed miserablely.

I do not know about any optimistic prediction. Whole lockdown and subsequent measures were taken because of predictions talking about milions of dead people. People dropping dead on streets and such. Overwhelmed hospitals which by the way were overwhelmed for the last 15 years anyway.That is precisely why first lockdown worked as people did not know what to expect.

SeaBreezes wrote: »

What we have done has saved numerous lives already, seems common sense to me to follow simple rules like masks social distancing, curbing local.clusters to give us time.

Sorry but I have to disagree. We actually killed numerous people when we elected to empty hospitals and shipped most of the people there to nursing houses where they simply did not get as much care as they could if they stayed in hospitals. We also ruined the economy and that is also going to cost a lot of lives down the road.

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Its not forever, by Jan we will know much much more.

I do not think so. Many people got scared way too much and January is just behind the corner. I thinkl that what will happen is massive rollout of many vaccines not properly researched and tested "because emergency", competing against each other while all of them will fail anyway.

patnor1011

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Are there? Have you actually witnessed this?

Witnessed? I experienced it.

Loafing Oaf

No: I don't care enough

patnor1011 wrote: »

Witnessed? I experienced it.

Well any largeish shop I've been in over the past few weeks there's been at least a few people without masks, and neither staff nor fellow customers reacted in any observable way. I find it hard to believe there are "plenty of covid zealots in the open who will start shouting insults"

patnor1011

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

odyssey06 wrote: »

Or maybe a large number of the people not wearing masks are the selfish lazy inconsiderate pig ignorant types who park in the disabled spots, don't give up their seats in buses etc and are being treated accordingly.

That's why it was never going to be enough in this country to rely on all the people doing the responsible thing when it comes to masks - or anything else related to this pandemic.

It would be neater if the risks of the virus were spread more evenly in the population, and if the wearing of masks was mainly about protecting yourself.
But instead, we're being asked to wear masks primarily to protect others, a specific cohort of others.

It was spread more evenly in Sweden for example. They did the same mistake by emptying hospitals exactly like we did. Apart from that, even while the virus was spreading more evenly (or like wildfire as some like to say) they seen it for what it is. PR campaign by the government to look like they are doing something.

patnor1011

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Well any largeish shop I've been in over the past few weeks there's been at least a few people without masks, and neither staff nor fellow customers reacted in any observable way. I find it hard to believe there are "plenty of covid zealots in the open who will start shouting insults"

Plenty of them here - hence antimaskers and similar name-calling. Same in real life. Observing is nice but you should feel it to understand. We can talk about virtues in people but fact is that most of us are selfish people or to put it mildly - we look after ourselves first. Nothing wrong with that. We all cant be mother Threresa or Gandhi.

timetogo1

No: I don't care enough

patnor1011 wrote: »

Plenty of them here - hence antimaskers and similar name-calling. Same in real life. Observing is nice but you should feel it to understand. We can talk about virtues in people but fact is that most of us are selfish people or to put it mildly - we look after ourselves first. Nothing wrong with that. We all cant be mother Threresa or Gandhi.

There's a few bits your conflating there.

Being selfish does not mean looking after yourself first. It is possible to look after yourself first and not be selfish.

And wearing a mask is not along the same lines as being Gandhi.

In your original post you were talking about Covid Zealots and now you're saying that somebody who uses the term antimasker is a zealot. Is there a better term for somebody that is anti mask that is more polite?

joeguevara

Pitch n Putt wrote: »

Did you see any supermarket close down because the staff who were working there 8 plus hours per day were infected?

It didn’t happen.

The wasn’t a mention of a cluster in a supermarket until after the masks recommendation was brought in.

The Kildare Offaly And Laois lockdown effort was a carbon copy of Leicester in England and was another ridiculous decision

The whole country is being held back 10 days with zero deaths and a handful of people in hospital less than 40 from a population of nearly 5 million 6 people in ICU and the bullshi1e reporting of cases goes on and on.

Most of these cases are recovered within 10 days

Whatever the reasoning about trying to hold on to this virus as a deadly killer which is what’s being pushed to the people is baffling to say the least.

You can’t have it both ways. Access to supermarkets was very restricted so social distancing meant staff weren’t exposed to the level that there is now. Also due to the age demographic of employees even if infected, mild symptoms and lack of testing meant the real number of infections weren’t known.

You then use the numbers now when mask compliance is close to 98% as a reason not to wear masks.

Again, masks are being used to open up ireland. Can you not understand if we stopped our numbers would increase which would inevitably mean lockdown.

You can’t pick and choose. Your basis for supermarkets was predicated with lockdown and restricted access. Now everything is opened up with people wearing masks you are trying to use that as a reason not to wear masks.

MadYaker

Yes: surgical

patnor1011 wrote: »

It was spread more evenly in Sweden for example. They did the same mistake by emptying hospitals exactly like we did. Apart from that, even while the virus was spreading more evenly (or like wildfire as some like to say) they seen it for what it is. PR campaign by the government to look like they are doing something.

They also have about 3 times more ICU beds and hospital capacity than we do, which if you look at their death rate, was badly needed. Their approach wasn’t an option for us at that time. This was explained at the time by Tony Holohan but of course you weren’t listening and even if you were you would have dismissed it because it doesn’t line up with your personal views on the issue.

Loafing Oaf

No: I don't care enough

patnor1011 wrote: »

Plenty of them here - hence antimaskers and similar name-calling. Same in real life. Observing is nice but you should feel it to understand. We can talk about virtues in people but fact is that most of us are selfish people or to put it mildly - we look after ourselves first. Nothing wrong with that. We all cant be mother Threresa or Gandhi.

I don't dispute that many people feel strongly about the importance of wearing masks, but the idea that there a lot of people calling out strangers in shops and other public spaces for not wearing them doesn't ring true to me. Obviously there are going to be isolated incidents but Irish people do not generally behave like that in my experience.

bush

No: other

Went into a shop yesterday forgetting my mask. Couldnt be arsed going back out, no one said anything and treated me as normal.

MrStuffins

Yes: other

bush wrote: »

Went into a shop yesterday forgetting my mask. Couldnt be arsed going back out, no one said anything and treated me as normal.

I was in the shop the other day and saw something similar.

Guy was at the deli ordering. Lady behind the deli asked him about his mask. His answer was "Sorry, I lost it. I was in the shop down the road, walked here and now I don't have it. I think it fell out of my pocket"

To me, that's a reasonable answer. The lady took it as such and served him.