Masks

Wibbs

Yes: other

SuperRabbit wrote: »

You are dangerously wrong. They confer absolutely no advantage in terms of infection risk unless you are somewhere where there is a high concentration of the virus, i.e. on the front lines.

Why do you insist on repeating unscientific nonsense? Your post itself demonstrates this for anyone with a modicum of logic.

Answer us this then? If they are advantageous in lowering the risk of the spread of infection in areas of "high concentration of the virus", how do they magically do next to nothing in areas of low concentrations. This makes absolutely zero sense at all. It's like saying oven gloves only protect your hands from temperatures above 100 degrees c, but you'll feel the heat of a tepid cup of tea. It is quite literally a nonsense.

And have you even considered that by lowering the R0 number in the population and reducing infections at source, you're lowering the stress points for front line health workers? Why are we doing other things like social distancing and hand washing if not to do that very thing?

Now I can drop any number of actual scientific research that shows masks are protective in a community setting, but I fear I'll be wasting my time and you'll continue to parrot the contradictory HSE position.

cnocbui

They probably still subscribe to the fallacious notion it isn't airborne.

SuperRabbit

Why should we wear masks?

To stop us infecting anyone else.

- Studies in Iceland show 50% of people with this have no symptoms but can spread it to others, therefore we all need to act like we have it. This virus is aerosolized to a certain extent (we don't know how much yet), so if we are wearing a mask we will breathe the water that comes out with our breath into the mask rather than into the air around us (or worse, cough!). Even a mask that isn't perfectly sealed will help. It also stops us putting our hands in to our mouths and then touching things.


So wearing a mask doesn't stop me catching it?

No, it doesn't.

- The main way you catch this is by touching something that came into contact with droplets. While wearing a mask you can still easily touch something and then touch your eyes. (You might even be touching your face more as you adjust the mask)


But won't it stop me breathing in the areosol?

Not in any way that matters.

- You aren't going to be standing next to someone breathing in their aerosol for 15 minutes, and you aren't in an area where there are dozens and dozens of infected people (like a hospital) for 20 minutes, let alone all day, so the amount that it filters the air isn't big enough to make any kind of a difference, it does not change if you are vulnerable or not. This lack of protection does not change when you wear an n-95 mask, leave those ones for the people who are in areas where there is a great deal of the virus in the air and enough that the air itself can cause infection, not the case in a supermarket or walking down the street. Think of it as you already having an incredibly low risk of catching it from the air (unlike a hospital worker who has an extremely high risk of catching it from the air) and you, lets say half, that tiny tiny tiny risk. You've gone from having no risk to still having no risk and you have used a mask that was guaranteed to save a life in a hospital.


The reason why we need to wear masks is that many of us already have this and we do not want to give it to anyone else.

To stop the spread we can wear dust masks, home made masks, bandanas, gas-masks, whatever you can get your hands on, they'll stop you spreading it. but leave the n-95s and other good masks for the people they will actually make a difference to: people surrounded by high concentrations of this

dublin99

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

Does anyone know how to stop glasses fogging up when wearing face masks?

If it is the surgical mask, make sure it's tightly fitted by crimping the wire at the top. Some doctors put a strip of extra surgical tape across top to help, and rest bottom rim of glasses on top of mask. Otherwise, make the lower band/tie looser so air you breath out goes out through the bottom and side.

cnocbui

SuperRabbit wrote: »

Why should we wear masks?

...

This is why: https://medium.com/better-humans/whats-the-evidence-on-face-masks-5f3c27a18cc

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-03-29/coronavirus-choir-outbreak

SuperRabbit

khalessi wrote: »

Each to their own opinion, I wore them on the frontlines for 20 odd years and am wearing them now when I go shopping as I know they provide protection.

If you are reusing the same mask, it would be no good to the hospital anyway, so more power to you. If you have unused masks please please please donate them. They are guaranteed to save lives when worn by hospital staff and people around high concentrations of the virus. There is 0 chance they will confer you any more advantage in the supermarket than a regular surgical mask or whatever else you can get your hands on.

SuperRabbit

cnocbui wrote: »

This is why: https://medium.com/better-humans/whats-the-evidence-on-face-masks-5f3c27a18cc

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-03-29/coronavirus-choir-outbreak

did you read my post about why we should wear masks!? You just posted links saying basically exactly what I said. What is the point in a message board if people post but don't read other people's posts I tried to make it as simple and easy to read as possible because I know people find this hard to understand. Your link points out that healthcare workers are wearing home-made masks while people are going to the supermarket in n-95 masks. this is ridiculous and my God it's so heartless, it's disgusting. People are incredibly selfish and ignorant, it's more than "selfish" because selfish actually implies they are helping themselves by wearing the n-95s, but they aren't

khalessi

Yes: surgical

SuperRabbit wrote: »

Why should we wear masks?

To stop us infecting anyone else.



So wearing a mask doesn't stop me catching it?

No, it doesn't.

So as a med person I pop into someones room for less then 30 seconds I shouldnt bother gowning up and putting on mask and gloves?

There is a reason we do this, to prevent cross contamination and to prevent us getting anything



So, if it doesnt stop me catching anything why do med staff wear them prior to pandemic?

I was taught infection control and prevention of cross contamination and one the most imprtant things was a mask to stop me getting anything.


Covid19 aerosol following cough can hang in air for upto to 3 hours. So I will rely on my trainging and experience and continue to wear them.

By the way, this question was asked at the end of last nights health briefing and the answer was fudged so the public wouldnt be buying masks.

Wibbs

Yes: other

SuperRabbit wrote: »

Why should we wear masks?

To stop us infecting anyone else.

So you DO agree, that if everyone wore a mask we would massively reduce the spread of this virus, even if the only reason was it stopped the infected spreading it? OK then. We should all wear masks.

But even here in this what looks like an advisory statement from some health authority(?) there is contradictory daftness.

EG. On the one hand we have this statement: It also stops us putting our hands in to our mouths and then touching things. (Id be asking who puts their hand in their mouth but I digress.

On the other hand we have this: While wearing a mask you can still easily touch something and then touch your eyes. (You might even be touching your face more as you adjust the mask)

So which is it? It stops you touching your face or doesn't? Plus infection through the eyes is up in the air as the conjuctiva don't possess the receptors that the virus latches onto, so it seems low risk.

Then we have a mask that can apparently stop exhaled virus laden droplets dead, but is oddly ineffective in stopping them being inhaled?

Looks like yet again we have Schrodinger's mask, both useless and vital and both impermeable and permeable at the same time.

Never mind that they don't even mention what type of mask. A half, or full face respirator type PP3 mask will stop the inhalation of viral particles as close to 100% as is possible. Basically you will not be infected while you're wearing it. However that only goes one way as exhaled air is unflitered so no use for the already infected. N95 and surgical masks are superior in this regard as air is filtered both ways, though not nearly so effectively as with respirators. N95 are better, though a few studies have found them not that much better than basic surgical masks, a couple of percentage points in it, but both are way better than nothing.

GreeBo

Yes: other

SuperRabbit wrote: »

did you read my post about why we should wear masks!?

You mean the post that says we should wear them to protect others because 50% of people infected show no symptoms?

That one?
Thats your argument for why we shoudlnt wear masks?

BrianD3

SuperRabbit wrote: »

no member of the public should be wearing an n-95 mask. If you have one, and it isn't used or expired, please please please please give it to a local hospital. They are desperate for them. You could save dozens of lives by giving them one mask.

25% of our cases are healthcare workers. You could stop dozens of infections by donating one n-95 mask.

The HSE is such a dysfunctional shambles that donated masks may sit on a shelf and not be used in a shortage or else be "acquired" by non frontline staff for personal use. Organisation is chock full of jobsworths, useless idiots and managers who haven't managed anything since 2005. If you are donating masks, best of luck trying to find the right person to give them to.

If the well publicised shipments from China are as portrayed, there should be no shortage of PPE in the HSE. Should.

In the event that the HSE wants donations it needs to have a website with very clear instructions on what exactly it wants (spec, condition etc.) and how to donate them. It won't do that - because then there would be major questions about its competence to acquire essential equipment.

SuperRabbit

I give up, I feel like no one actually understood what I said and everyone thought I was saying something I wasn't.

It's like I say "cats are fluffy" and you say "cant's aren't dogs!!! " so I give up.

I never said what you guys are saying I sad. I'm sorry I couldn't explain it, I got all my information from doctors and the lancet if you want to go do the research yourselves.

Wibbs

Yes: other

SuperRabbit wrote: »

I got all my information from doctors and the lancet if you want to go do the research yourselves.

I have and I did.

And yes I do genuinely understand the good intentions place where you're coming from S, re the front line health workers and shortages there and I agree it's a bloody clusterfcuk on behalf of the health services lack of planning and lagging behind at the top(and not just in Ireland). I also agree that the general public should wear/make good homemade solutions, of which there are all sorts of good patterns and how-tos out there for. I do not agree with health services, because of their own supply screwups, telling the public that masks are useless in a community setting. That's a patent falsehood.

As for handing any masks you may have into the HSE/Hospitals. I've some experience in handing back unopened and within date medical equipment to the HSE. Farce just about covers it, refusal to take it covers it better. And this was stuff they originally supplied. I'm not alone in this experience. The wastage in our health service while a little better than it was ten or twenty years ago is still a bloody scandal. I'd bet the farm if I rocked up to any hospital with masks they'd end up on a shelf. I have offered and passed on a couple of bits and bobs of PPE type stuff(boxes of gloves, hand wash and a few surgical masks) to medical types privately and they took them alright.

cnocbui

The US is just such a lovely place:

Ming Lin, an emergency room physician in Washington state, said he was told Friday he was out of a job because he’d given an interview to a newspaper about a Facebook post detailing what he believed to be inadequate protective equipment and testing. In Chicago, a nurse was fired after emailing colleagues that she wanted to wear a more protective mask while on duty. In New York, the NYU Langone Health system has warned employees they could be terminated if they talk to the media without authorization.

FFS!

riffmongous

cnocbui wrote: »

This is why: https://medium.com/better-humans/whats-the-evidence-on-face-masks-5f3c27a18cc

In fairness there is another review of the SARS studies (in the context of a review on influenza) that says most of them have methodological flaws

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22188875

cnocbui

SuperRabbit wrote: »

did you read my post about why we should wear masks!? You just posted links saying basically exactly what I said. What is the point in a message board if people post but don't read other people's posts I tried to make it as simple and easy to read as possible because I know people find this hard to understand. Your link points out that healthcare workers are wearing home-made masks while people are going to the supermarket in n-95 masks. this is ridiculous and my God it's so heartless, it's disgusting. People are incredibly selfish and ignorant, it's more than "selfish" because selfish actually implies they are helping themselves by wearing the n-95s, but they aren't

I read your post and found it to be ill informed. You are the one not reading.

Your thesis was: masks only needed in rooms full of covid patients. The Chinese SARS study found a 70% reduction in communal virus infection if masks are worn consistently and even a significant reduction if worn communally only sometimes. Being Airborne means communal spread is likely to be rife and that hand-washing is a sop.

stoneill

Yes: surgical

Masks in general society are nor required.
Wear them if you want but your not actually gaining any extra protection because most people aren't putting them on properly anyway.
Anyone who works in an environment where masks, respirators or SCBA is involved will tell you that fit testing is crucial.
I don't think old Doris down the road there did her annual fit test for mask size or her buddy check to ensure it's on correctly.

riffmongous

stoneill wrote: »

Masks in general society are nor required.
Wear them if you want but your not actually gaining any extra protection because most people aren't putting them on properly anyway.
Anyone who works in an environment where masks, respirators or SCBA is involved will tell you that fit testing is crucial.
I don't think old Doris down the road there did her annual fit test for mask size or her buddy check to ensure it's on correctly.

Definitely but the discussion here now has moved to using masks to cover your mouth to stop it spreading rather than wearing masks to protect yourself

cnocbui

riffmongous wrote: »

In fairness there is another review of the SARS studies (in the context of a review on influenza) that says most of them have methodological flaws

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22188875

In fairness, there is a distinct lack of studies of any quality, so given the observed pattern and speed of spread, it would be wise to assume the worst. The Italians have had enough of the dog-sh​it peddled by the WHO and other useless masks don't work morons and it's not airborne crowd, after losing 50 doctors, and are now suiting up to airborn protocols.

Ian Lipkin:

Ian Lipkin is the John Snow Professor of Epidemiology at the Mailman School of Public Health at Columbia University and Professor of Neurology and Pathology at the College of Physicians and Surgeons at Columbia University. Lipkin is also Director of the Center for Infection and Immunity, an academic laboratory for microbe hunting in acute and chronic diseases.

is recovering from having the virus, and said it is really rough, but also said he thinks it has a significantly higher R0 than the 2-3 estimate.

This is an airborne highly infectious contagion. Masks in the community will reduce the rate of spread and number of cases, just on the anecdotal evidence of Asian societies where they are common and their epidemics have been well controlled, unlike the UK, US, France, Iran and Italy, where community mask wearing has not happened at scale.

DeeperThinker

Masks also protect against viral load. There is increasing evidence that lower viral inoculation of COVID-19 could potentially result in a milder illness. If you are wearing a mask and exposed to the virus your body would most likely inhale far less viral particles due to the mask's protection giving your immune system time to react before becoming overwhelmed by the otherwise potentially trillions of viral particles you could inhale without wearing a mask. Even a surgical mask or a home made mask is useful for this reason.

Then there is the aspect of aerosolization with increasing evidence (most recently in the New England Journal of Medicine) that the virus can survive in air for up to 3 hours. This is in laboratory conditions so whilst in the real world, it may not last that long, it could still linger for quite some time (for example in a supermarket aisle where someone has previously sneezed). A surgical mask might only be partially effective towards this and an N-95 or higher rated mask would be much better (with goggles). Hopefully once the frontline staff increase their stock, these will be made available again to the public (of course with full preference to providing for all frontline staff first).

I would expect to see European governments do a complete U-turn on the mask issue in the coming days and weeks. I have been rather shocked at how we have been endlessly told masks do not offer much protection and should not be worn. Sure, if there is a short supply then at least come clean with it and say stocks were inadequate and frontline staff require them so please don't hoard them. I am sure most people would comply and in the mean time people could even make homemade masks as they are doing in the Czech Republic.

Personally, I have been wearing a mask since several weeks whilst in the supermarket. Now, I also wear eye goggles too (the eyes are another major point of entry for the virus).

If you happen to have an N-95 mask or greater, they offer high protection and can be reused as long as they remain intact and the filter undamaged. Apparently they are good for 8 hours of consecutive use so you can wear them for a short amount of time (for example at the shops) and then reuse them again if you are careful with them. The mask itself is a source of infection after wearing and must be taken off correctly. If reused, it should not be reused for a number of days as viral particles may be on the surface of the mask and could infect you if worn again. There is still study being done on the lifespan of this virus on different surfaces so personally, I would not wear the same mask again for 9 days.

Surgical masks should not normally be reused as the fibers tend to become weaker more quickly. Anway, there is a lot of misinformation out their about masks and their effectiveness but the bottomline is that whilst not fool proof, they do offer considerably greater increased protection.

Obviously masks help also stop the spread of the virus from those that already might have it and not realise (or realise) but apart from what I stated above about viral load above, if everyone simply wore a mask I bet our infection rate would drop substantially as has been the case in several Asian countries.

Jurgen Klopp

The CDC in the US have said they are now reviewing their mask guidance and the entire public may be advised to wear a mask

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/03/31/824560471/should-we-all-be-wearing-masks-in-public-health-experts-revisit-the-question?t=1585749925485

No doubt if the "Americans" so it the window licker deniers here will be scurrying about trying to source or make some

cnocbui

stoneill wrote: »

Masks in general society are nor required.
Wear them if you want but your not actually gaining any extra protection because most people aren't putting them on properly anyway.
Anyone who works in an environment where masks, respirators or SCBA is involved will tell you that fit testing is crucial.
I don't think old Doris down the road there did her annual fit test for mask size or her buddy check to ensure it's on correctly.

People been told how to wash their hands properly ad nauseam. Informing people how to don and doff masks is no harder. Many people don't need to be shown and will self educate or work it out for themselves.

DeeperThinker

cnocbui wrote: »

People been told how to wash their hands properly ad nauseam. Informing people how to don and doff masks is no harder. Many people don't need to be shown and will self educate or work it out for themselves.

Absolutely. To think that the head of the WHO told the general public that we should not wear masks as it might distract us from washing our hands and taking other precautions is completely ridiculous. Anyone who is that easily distracted is not going to take care anyway. The vast majority of people do take it seriously and would still wash their hands if wearing a mask. It's the most common sense thing in the world to wear a mask right now apart from washing your hands and social distancing.

Wibbs

Yes: other

cnocbui wrote: »

Being Airborne means communal spread is likely to be rife and that hand-washing is a sop.

I strongly suspect airborne spread is the lesser route to infection and close quarters contact in shared housing and surface(fomide) spread are the main routes. The same SARS(and other) studies found that it was a multi pronged thing and the more prongs you mitigated the better the outcomes. Hand hygiene and surface cleaning was way up there, after quarantine and isolation, avoiding public transport(taxis in particular it seems) and indoor gatherings and yes community mask wearing.

stoneill wrote: »

Masks in general society are nor required.
Wear them if you want but your not actually gaining any extra protection because most people aren't putting them on properly anyway.
Anyone who works in an environment where masks, respirators or SCBA is involved will tell you that fit testing is crucial.
I don't think old Doris down the road there did her annual fit test for mask size or her buddy check to ensure it's on correctly.

To be fair S there's a big difference between surgical masks and respirators and the like. Even with perfect use no way would surgical masks pass muster in any sort of industrial setting with dodgy stuff in the air. Law suits ahoy.

It's about levels of risk. A properly worn surgical type mask is significantly better for protection against transmission and receiving of pathogens than no mask at all. But even a half arsed wearing will act like a tissue held to the face and reduce risk of transmission from the infected.

riffmongous

cnocbui wrote: »

In fairness, there is a distinct lack of studies of any quality, so given the observed pattern and speed of spread, it would be wise to assume the worst. The Italians have had enough of the dog-sh​it peddled by the WHO and other useless masks don't work morons and it's not airborne crowd, after losing 50 doctors, and are now suiting up to airborn protocols.

Ian Lipkin:



is recovering from having the virus, and said it is really rough, but also said he thinks it has a significantly higher R0 than the 2-3 estimate.

This is an airborne highly infectious contagion. Masks in the community will reduce the rate of spread and number of cases, just on the anecdotal evidence of Asian societies where they are common and their epidemics have been well controlled, unlike the UK, US, France, Iran and Italy, where community mask wearing has not happened at scale.

That's not how science works though, anecdotal evidence isn't enough as there are also other measures being taken in other countries. For example if you look at the Czechs, they also introduced quarantines and closed the public spaces and borders much earlier than most other countries. Whether it's wise to assume the worst though.. yeah that's different when you are in the middle of it alright..as much as is practical and doesn't cause problems elsewhere

Whether it's airborne or not... I don't know, but in the case of the Italians I'd wonder how much is due to a lack of training, lack of sufficient PPE and over working reducing the effectiveness of the PPE, which is what one study found for SARS

Despite infection control measures, breakthrough transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) occurred for many hospital workers in Hong Kong. We conducted a case-control study of 72 hospital workers with SARS and 144 matched controls. Inconsistent use of goggles, gowns, gloves, and caps was associated with a higher risk for SARS infection (unadjusted odds ratio 2.42 to 20.54, p < 0.05). The likelihood of SARS infection was strongly associated with the amount of personal protection equipment perceived to be inadequate, having <2 hours of infection control training, and not understanding infection control procedures. No significant differences existed between the case and control groups in the proportion of workers who performed high-risk procedures, reported minor protection equipment problems, or had social contact with SARS-infected persons. Perceived inadequacy of personal protection equipment supply, infection control training <2 hours, and inconsistent use of personal protection equipment when in contact with SARS patients were significant independent risk factors for SARS infection.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3322933/

juno10353

Yes: to protect myself and others

Do not change your behaviour
To avoid being infected

Assume you are infected
And change behaviour
To avoid transmitting

cnocbui

Science doesn't work the way you think it does. The vast majority of papers are never replicated, and when they are, there is a failure to replicate the original results in the 66% of cases.

Science is facing a "reproducibility crisis" where more than two-thirds of researchers have tried and failed to reproduce another scientist's experiments, research suggests.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-39054778

so don't give me that science doesn't work like that nonsense - science doesn't work like it should or how people think it does.
It's basically a house of cards. The Emperor is walking around nude.

riffmongous

cnocbui wrote: »

Science doesn't work the way you think it does. The vast majority of papers are never replicated, and when they are, there is a failure to replicate the original results in the 66% of cases.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-39054778

so don't give me that science doesn't work like that nonsense - science doesn't work like it should or how people think it does.
It's basically a house of cards. The Emperor is walking around nude.

I know how science works thanks. I've been through the review and publishing process. I'm assuming now you don't though

BanditLuke

Anybody buy any masks recently? Bought a box of 200 back in January for 50 quid just wondering if people are experiencing price gouging or not now.

cnocbui

riffmongous wrote: »

I know how science works thanks. I've been through the review and publishing process. I'm assuming now you don't though

Your are welcome to your assumptions, despite having no evidence to base them on.