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Coronavirus: Chinese wet markets still operation despite COVID-19
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9 best wet markets in Singapore
This is how horrified people in the west were by wet markets a year ago... And also shows what a wide ranging term it is and it's just become a bit of a dog whistle.0 -
This article from Feb 3 from Reuters - Where WHO chief states no need to ban travel from affected region -
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-health-who/who-chief-says-widespread-travel-bans-not-needed-to-beat-china-virus-idUSKBN1ZX1H3
If he had come out and said lets stop travel, particularly from Wuhan, think of how much misery could have been saved - surely that was his job and
that of WHO themselves.
Similarily we were very slow to stop travel from North Italy in our early days, not sure wher that directive was coming from, WHO or EU.
As far as I can see WHO are dictating how best to defeat this horrible virus, but ther are serious questions to be asked on ther initial handling of this pandemic.0 -
By that logic we shouldn't breed pig anymore as this contributed to the swine flu and as for the risk associated with poultry and bird flu...... While bat might sound odd to someone in the western world, the idea of eating cow in some parts of India would seem complete madness.
They skin dogs alive, leave them suffering like that for hours... and then finally blow torch them, before selling them in their sick meat markets! :mad:
These markets are disgusting... both in terms of hygiene and more importantly morally repugnant!
It's time the world opened its eyes to the nasty practices going on over there... you cannot compare our animal welfare standards to that of China!
There needs to be boycotts and international sanctions for such disgraceful practices...0 -
Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »They skin dogs alive, leave them suffering like that for hours... and then finally blow torch them, before selling them in their sick meat markets! :mad:
These markets are disgusting... both in terms of hygiene and more importantly morally repugnant!
It's time the world opened its eyes to the nasty practices going on over there... you cannot compare our animal welfare standards to that of China!
There needs to be boycotts and international sanctions for such disgraceful practices...
Dogs are only skinned alive by the same sort of savages that video themselves abusing and torturing animals across the world.
I enquires about this and they are killed same way as pigs, cattle and sheep. Mostly throats skit with sharp knife and bled out near instantly.0 -
SuperRabbit wrote: »Thank you so much for agreeing with me on what I thought was incredibly obvious but no one here seems to understand.
We have bats in Ireland. If you aren't careful they easily mix with pigs and chickens, who themselves are a risk anyway. But there's all kinds of things to stop that here. We need those regulations internationally and we need to do something to help every government make sure they are enforced, regardless of the government's resources or how much of a priority they consider it.
In many cases, there are regulations in place, but people/businesses ignore them. Then it comes down to them being enforced by the police, who are either local, or corrupt. Usually both.
The posters here need to make some consideration to the size and population of China, or other countries that engage in the use of wet markets... but not just the size, but also the amount of poverty involved.
They're a common sight throughout Asia and Africa for those who are poor... because wet markets are cheap to run, and buy from. When you remove the wet markets, they need to be replaced by something else. Healthy/hygienic alternatives cost more, which is why when wet markets are shut down, they invariably reopen again in another location... because the poor can't afford the foodstuffs from the supermarkets since the prices are marked up to cover the costs.
There are plenty of threads on boards about the poor in Ireland needing help, and that's people needing help in a welfare state. What about a country where there are no such supports?
I'm not saying that China shouldn't operate on a higher level of safety and hygiene. Trust me, I would love to see improvements across the board there. I'm wondering just how realistic the demands here are though. I just don't see it happening myself.
I can see Beijing bringing in more and more laws/regulations against the exotic trade. They've already started doing so. But... China is a country where people ignore the law when it suits them... Beijing doesn't have absolute control over the country, and they're going to be cautious about further social unrest.. so any changes to wet markets or such, is likely to happen over an extended period of time rather than immediately.I don't know why we tolerate China.
Money... short attention spans and probably because most people don't really care. Remember the outrage when the US invaded Iraq, and the subsequent outrage regarding Guantamano Bay? How long did that outrage last? GB is still operational doing all manner of acts which are contrary to international law, but it gets away with it because people don't really care. It didn't take long for people to lose interest, and find something new to be outraged over. Or the behavior of FF during the banking crash? I can remember people talking about marching on the government to oust out the traitors, and destroy the corruption... nah. People lost interest gradually after a few months, and FF are still getting a load of votes. We didn't see many heads roll for that disaster, and people.. just took it.
We tolerate China because there is a general sense of apathy about changing the big things. We don't really trust our governments or politicians that much... and they're the ones who would need to be pushing that agenda for change. Can you imagine Leo pushing Xi Jinping over all this? Nah. Not going to happen.. even Trump will bluster but he won't push this that far.
Nope. China is tolerated because people don't really care beyond ranting on the internet.0 -
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Dogs are only skinned alive by the same sort of savages that video themselves abusing and torturing animals across the world.
I enquires about this and they are killed same way as pigs, cattle and sheep. Mostly throats skit with sharp knife and bled out near instantly.
right.. I still avoid suspiciously cheap leather though..0 -
Dogs skinned alive, fish skinned alive.
Which one is more acceptable?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sD9M8cjXsL00 -
apart from not stopping the Italian flights in the early days, I thought Leo has handled the situation pretty well - but, given Chinese cover-up and strange statistics I am worried he is tweeting today to maintain close contact with China after receiving delivery of needed medical supplies - maybe all this isolation is making me suspicious, but I hope the delivery is not deffective like happened with Spain and others, and I am a little troubled about close contact with China whilst in a lockdown - should we not be asking China to close ther wet markets before maintaining closer contacts ?0
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/20/chinese-life-slowly-gets-back-to-normal-as-the-epidemic-subsides-coronavirus
This article says that foreigners in China are now being discriminated against:Xi has ordered officials to be vigilant at the borders, and international flights to Beijing have been diverted to other cities. Wariness of foreigners has increased. As one US citizen struggled to check into a hotel in Shanghai, a woman waiting in line murmured: “Before, everyone was afraid of Chinese people. Now it’s the reverse.”
Funny how the racism card they just love to play only works one way, isn't it? Anyone who dares to blame the Chinese for this or connect the virus to the wet markets is called a racist, yet they have no problem discriminating against foreigners, now that the virus they created has caused even more chaos overseas. Suddenly it IS fine to discriminate based on skin colour and passport, when they're the ones who will suffer.
Any scrap of respect I had left for this country has well and truly disappeared. They cannot be allowed to have us all by the balls any longer.0 -
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Oh lord. We should just invade.
I'll be the first over-the-top with my bayonet to skewer the scum.0 -
auspicious wrote: »Oh lord. We should just invade.
I'll be the first over-the-top with my bayonet to skewer the scum.
Will you do some veg on the rat skewer for a bit of flavour?0 -
Class MayDresser wrote: »Will you do some veg on the rat skewer for a bit of flavour?
Anything you like. Once you pick up my weapon when I drop
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I think we're going to have to look at global standards for biosecurity in agriculture and food chains if we are going to have a global freedom of movement by air. Apart from the death toll, this thing has just cost the US and EU at least €2.2 trillion each and that's only the proposed bailouts. Add in all the other countries impacted and you're into at least the same again.
If there's a genuine risk coming from places with high risk food production activities, the net benefit of tourism and easy going travel to/from them would be MASSIVELY outweighed by the cost of this. That's just the practical reality of it.
It needs to be tackled on the basis of international treaty and quite quickly and to be taken very seriously by all involved.
It's hugely negative for countries like China too. Even a domestically contained virus like this breaking out again has the potential to collapse an economy or cause massive civil unrest. This incident has cost China probably a couple of trillion too - it's done serious damage to their domestic economy and slumped world demand for Chinese goods.
Whatever the causes, they need to be found and regulated out of existence and if that annoys some traditionalists who like a particular type of market - they'll just have to get over it.
Many public health breakthroughs over the years were simple hygiene measures. Basically sewerage systems and potable water probably saved countless millions of lives. It's often quite simple, non-technical measures like this that are the big breakthroughs in public health.
Firmly held beliefs and traditions do not exempt things from criticism or being hugely problematic.0 -
Outsourcing industries for cheaper labour is one significant cause of stalled economy in certain markets. Alternate 'homegrown' solutions must be made viable to counter future regional threats to reduced GDP output.0
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lainey_d_123 wrote: »https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/20/chinese-life-slowly-gets-back-to-normal-as-the-epidemic-subsides-coronavirus
This article says that foreigners in China are now being discriminated against:
Well, first off, there has always been discrimination against foreigners in China... and there are heaps of benefits too. Being a foreigner elevates you above the common Chinese person in so many ways... The point though is that discrimination in China tends to happen at the official level... which is why most foreigners will avoid the attentions of the police or the government. This situation with Covid pushes foreigners into the view of the government. However, there are heaps of foreigners who are naive and complete muppets, believing that China today is not the same as China of the cultural revolution... they expect the same treatment as they would in their own countries (and often better treatment), and then get shocked when they don't.
Secondly... collective responsibility. What one foreigner does in China, reflects on the rest of foreigners. It doesn't matter where the foreigner comes from, that judgement is passed on to the rest of us. Recently there have been a variety of foreigners who have broken quarantine, refused to follow the distancing guidelines, and abused Chinese people who objected to it... Those incidents are made public through the NetCitizens, and then picked up by the state run media, giving the Chinese people the impressions that foreigners don't respect China or the containment procedures they have in place.
And they're not far wrong.. I've gotten photos/vids from foreign friends at large parties organised by foreigners... There are many people who aren't taking the whole thing seriously, and that comes back to bite all foreigners.
As for direct racism, I've been on the receiving end of very little during my time in China. Most expats I know are similar because we make the effort to find the pot-holes... A few clubs will say no to foreigners, but in all honesty, there are so many benefits to being a foreigner, that the small discriminatory remarks/attitudes are easily dismissed.Funny how the racism card they just love to play only works one way, isn't it? Anyone who dares to blame the Chinese for this or connect the virus to the wet markets is called a racist, yet they have no problem discriminating against foreigners, now that the virus they created has caused even more chaos overseas. Suddenly it IS fine to discriminate based on skin colour and passport, when they're the ones who will suffer.
First. They didn't create the virus. No more than Africans created AIDS. :rolleyes:
Second, you're sounding like Trump. Collective responsibility for 1.4 billion people is just sickening. I can remember how Irish people were treated in the UK when the IRA were active, and everyone complaining about how unfair it was...It's bad enough when the Chinese people do it about foreigners in China.. we're a distinct minority there, with the vast majority of Chinese people never having a conversation with a foreigner. They don't understand us at all.. and many of them won't ever get the chance. But it's pretty awful when westerners get up on some perceived superior moral pedestal and behave the same as them.. But somehpw it's different. There will be "Reasons". :rolleyes:
Third, it's traditional Chinese culture. They cannot be held responsible for something negative. The impact of face means that they will always react aggressively to such comments. They know they're at fault for what happened... they just won't ever acknowledge it to a foreigner.Any scrap of respect I had left for this country has well and truly disappeared. They cannot be allowed to have us all by the balls any longer.
They don't have us by the balls. Western countries could outsource to a dozen other countries instead of China. They just didn't. It's not as if China has some way of blackmailing Western people into buying their products or having western companies do business there. In fact, China is incredibly difficult to do business in as a foreigner, and yet, western companies beg to be allowed in...0 -
Firmly held beliefs and traditions do not exempt things from criticism or being hugely problematic.
True enough but how do you pay for all the proposed changes? Ireland is still using various infrastructure from when the British left. People see the success of China, see the amazing looking cities, but never leave the city center areas, and notice the drop off in quality as you go further away from the richer and more public areas.
China is huge. I mean that. I'd traveled extensively before going to China, but nothing prepared me for just how big the country and the cities are. I went on a number of guided trips into the Russian interior, but population is extremely sparse. Not so with China. Cities, towns, villages are everywhere. Sure, the countryside in places is becoming underpopulated as people move to the cities, but that just places even more demands on the infrastructure.. infrastructure that is often very old, or extremely basic.
I agree with most of your post, but I don't think people really understand the enormity of modernising a country like China. Irish people certainly don't. Xi'an has 9 million people. Chongqing has, at least, 26+ million people. It's easy to dismiss it as numbers or facts on a page, but to see it... is something else entirely.
There is a need for better hygiene, better handling of food, better storage, etc. There is that need... but.... from a practical angle, I don't see much changing for decades. Chinese people from the countryside are often extremely backward, and are mostly uneducated. City people are generally better, but with the numbers involved, there are a lot of people who don't get a proper education.. and never really learn anything beyond the job that gets them fed each night.
And while China is making a lot of money.. it's also a very expensive country to maintain.. and develop. I dunno. I don't really see how anyone is going to force change when it would cost so much to do it all... and you'd need non-chinese workers, since most things built in China tend to be really poor quality.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Well, first off, there has always been discrimination against foreigners in China... and there are heaps of benefits too. Being a foreigner elevates you above the common Chinese person in so many ways... The point though is that discrimination in China tends to happen at the official level... which is why most foreigners will avoid the attentions of the police or the government. This situation with Covid pushes foreigners into the view of the government. However, there are heaps of foreigners who are naive and complete muppets, believing that China today is not the same as China of the cultural revolution... they expect the same treatment as they would in their own countries (and often better treatment), and then get shocked when they don't.
I assume you're white? Maybe you should have a chat with my black Dutch friend who spend time living in China if you think being a 'foreigner' elevates you above the Chinese. Maybe being a white foreigner, yes.Secondly... collective responsibility. What one foreigner does in China, reflects on the rest of foreigners. It doesn't matter where the foreigner comes from, that judgement is passed on to the rest of us. Recently there have been a variety of foreigners who have broken quarantine, refused to follow the distancing guidelines, and abused Chinese people who objected to it... Those incidents are made public through the NetCitizens, and then picked up by the state run media, giving the Chinese people the impressions that foreigners don't respect China or the containment procedures they have in place.
I think you'll find that that's exactly what the rest of the world calls 'racism'.And they're not far wrong.. I've gotten photos/vids from foreign friends at large parties organised by foreigners... There are many people who aren't taking the whole thing seriously, and that comes back to bite all foreigners.
Again, why is it alright for them to tar entire groups of people with the same brush, when they can't take it when it's done to them?As for direct racism, I've been on the receiving end of very little during my time in China. Most expats I know are similar because we make the effort to find the pot-holes... A few clubs will say no to foreigners, but in all honesty, there are so many benefits to being a foreigner, that the small discriminatory remarks/attitudes are easily dismissed.
Again, if you're white.First. They didn't create the virus. No more than Africans created AIDS. :rolleyes:
They did create the perfect conditions for it, though, didn't they? After they were told exactly what not to do the last time.Second, you're sounding like Trump. Collective responsibility for 1.4 billion people is just sickening. I can remember how Irish people were treated in the UK when the IRA were active, and everyone complaining about how unfair it was...It's bad enough when the Chinese people do it about foreigners in China.. we're a distinct minority there, with the vast majority of Chinese people never having a conversation with a foreigner. They don't understand us at all.. and many of them won't ever get the chance. But it's pretty awful when westerners get up on some perceived superior moral pedestal and behave the same as them.. But somehpw it's different. There will be "Reasons". :rolleyes:
And yet you've just defended them doing exactly that to foreigners.Third, it's traditional Chinese culture. They cannot be held responsible for something negative. The impact of face means that they will always react aggressively to such comments. They know they're at fault for what happened... they just won't ever acknowledge it to a foreigner.
If someone acted like this on a personal level, they'd be called cowardly, weak and irresponsible. There's nothing remotely positive about it. Why are we supposed to pretend it's OK when it's a group of people and it's their 'culture'?They don't have us by the balls. Western countries could outsource to a dozen other countries instead of China. They just didn't. It's not as if China has some way of blackmailing Western people into buying their products or having western companies do business there. In fact, China is incredibly difficult to do business in as a foreigner, and yet, western companies beg to be allowed in...
Good. Hopefully they will.0 -
+1. China wouldn't be the industrial giant it is without the increasing madness of western consumerism. We've become obese with "stuff" and crave the hit of more "stuff" and that's mostly made in China, or as you note other third world places where wages are measured in bowls of rice. Where often the Chinese have outsourced as their costs go up and their demographics shift.
The west needs to go on a consumerist diet. How many bloody phones do we need to buy? Ask the average westerner how many phones they've bought in the last ten years? How much other tat that gets thrown out or gathers dust? If we halved our consumption of same and brought more manufacturing back to Europe China would be forced to cop on and we'd be the better for it financially and mentally.
I practice what I preach as much as I can. I've long avoided buying stuff from China because of well, them being a totalitarian state with a long list of human(and animal) rights abuses. If I could buy a non Chinese made phone or laptop I would(both I use are five years old).
Still can't understand why we can't manufacturer products here. Automation has advanced a lot providing still relatively cheap products and still create well paid jobs. I reckon there's too many middle men selling the products back to the west from China. That's the big problem.0 -
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Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »Still can't understand why we can't manufacturer products here. Automation has advanced a lot providing still relatively cheap products and still create well paid jobs. I reckon there's too many middle men selling the products back to the west from China. That's the big problem.
China became an almost one-stop-shop integrated supply chain for many industries. We handed them the world's supply chain, chiefly because they had a pliant cheap workforce. Very difficult to move away from reliance on China for many companies although it could be done.
Samsung moved an awful lot of their manufacturing capabilitity to Vietnam for instance, although they still have some critical functions in China.0 -
lainey_d_123 wrote: »I assume you're white? Maybe you should have a chat with my black Dutch friend who spend time living in China if you think being a 'foreigner' elevates you above the Chinese. Maybe being a white foreigner, yes.
Yup. I'm white. Many of my friends over there are black, or arabic. They do experience racism, and discrimination. Asia is famous for how they perceive black people, and black people continue to go there.
As for thinking that being a 'foreigner' elevates you above the Chinese.. no.. I know it does. Being given seats in busy restaurants, the owners of businesses leading you past long queues, getting the best seats, etc. And that's without even talking about the elevation in terms of sexual relationships and dating..
There is discrimination. You seem to think I'm denying it, but anyone who did the most basic of research before going to China would know about it. Same with Japan, Vietnam, etc.I think you'll find that that's exactly what the rest of the world calls 'racism'.
Actually... I find most people term it as an unreasonable fear, distrust or hatred of people based on their race. Quite like a phobia. And there is a scale in severity which seems to be ignored nowadays.Again, why is it alright for them to tar entire groups of people with the same brush, when they can't take it when it's done to them?
They can take it. They dismiss foreigners as being rude, ignorant, and hypocritical. They're not far wrong. They react as humans do. They find an echo chamber of opinions, so that they can fuel their outrage. You find similar behavior in the West for all manner of issues.Again, if you're white.
Nope. I have black friends who have been in China for over a decade. We have talked about the subject of discrimination or racism. I've spend extensive time with them while outside.. and nah. There are some differences but not that much. It really depends on where in China you are. Some cities/regions are more tolerant of foreigners whereas others are, indeed, outright hostile to black people or Arabs.
Ahh well, I'm different from you. I knew what China (or Asia in general) was like before I moved there. I know the racism or discrimination was both cultural and institutional. I expected it, and wasn't shocked when it happened. I also accepted the reasons why it happens.
Most Chinese people will not have a conversation with a foreigner longer than 5 minutes. Most don't speak English to the level of being able to truly know someone, and most foreigners don't learn enough Chinese for that kind of interaction. Then there's the numbers. There's less than 5k foreigners in my city, and it has a population of 9 million. The Chinese media likes to highlight the misbehavior of foreigners and encourage the stereotypes to remain. And lastly, many foreigners do behave badly in China, acting in ways which they would never do in their own country.
So, I can appreciate the reasons for the divide, and the differences in perception regarding us in China. That makes it easier to accept. For both white and black people. It's just that some people expect China to change just for them... and to do it instantly on their arrival.They did create the perfect conditions for it, though, didn't they? After they were told exactly what not to do the last time.
As do dozens of other countries around the world.. and China is an extremely traditional place. They're not going to change established practices easily. You seem to think a magic wand can be waved and everyone will fall into line. It doesn't work that way.And yet you've just defended them doing exactly that to foreigners.
Nope. Nuance. I didn't defend them. I understand why they do it. There's a difference.If someone acted like this on a personal level, they'd be called cowardly, weak and irresponsible. There's nothing remotely positive about it. Why are we supposed to pretend it's OK when it's a group of people and it's their 'culture'?
Because they're the dominant culture in their region, and ranting that it should be otherwise, is like spitting into the wind.Good. Hopefully they will.
I doubt it, but it's good to dream.0 -
Very informative and disturbing documentary from 60 minutes Austraila :-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEQcvcyzQGE
The Chinese leadership cover-up exposed , and I worry about our own leader trying to build closer ties with it.
The Donald does not come out great either.
Worrying times.0 -
BanditLuke wrote: »But yet all we hear is wall to wall orange man bad coverage from the media (and he is a bad dose in fairness) whilst they completely ignore for the most part Xi Jinping and the harm he's done. This is why the media can't be trusted.
I dont think comparing media coverage of Trump v Xi is useful. For one Trump is a one man news making machine for the media, he Tweets up to 60 or 70 times a day and gives them enough content to fill websites and newspaper columns many times over. Xi on the other hand is a dictator, communicates his missives to State tv and doesnt do transparency and accountability to the media. Trump has press conferences while Xi has radio silence.
I agree there should be a lot more media focus on China but its not like Xi gives them much to work with, information is a tightly held secret for the CCP.China became an almost one-stop-shop integrated supply chain for many industries. We handed them the world's supply chain, chiefly because they had a pliant cheap workforce. Very difficult to move away from reliance on China for many companies although it could be done.
Samsung moved an awful lot of their manufacturing capabilitity to Vietnam for instance, although they still have some critical functions in China.
Thats probably the long and short of it. We all remember the iPhone and how when it launched just about everyone in the west had to have one, it was a revolutionary product and Apple shipped hundreds of millions of them. Assembly was outsourced to Foxconn who could put together a work force of over 100,000 people in a short space of time to manufacture them. They ruled them with an iron fist ( a fair few committed suicide due to being overworked) to ensure the massive demand for iPhones was met.
I doubt there are many other places in the world that could meet such a fervent and insatiable western demand for IPhones as China did back then. We wanted our iPhones and we wanted them yesterday and Foxconn sorted it out.0 -
auspicious wrote: »Outsourcing industries for cheaper labour is one significant cause of stalled economy in certain markets. Alternate 'homegrown' solutions must be made viable to counter future regional threats to reduced GDP output.
-...this pandemic marks a sea change and that "2019 was the year of peak supply chain fragmentation".
...it seems that Covid-19 can only accelerate that process...-
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-52104978
Maybe when we achieve a semblance of normality, where it matters, attitudes will change.0 -
We just need to decouple from CCP and Sanction0
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I think we're going to have to look at global standards for biosecurity in agriculture and food chains if we are going to have a global freedom of movement by air. Apart from the death toll, this thing has just cost the US and EU at least €2.2 trillion each and that's only the proposed bailouts. Add in all the other countries impacted and you're into at least the same again.
If there's a genuine risk coming from places with high risk food production activities, the net benefit of tourism and easy going travel to/from them would be MASSIVELY outweighed by the cost of this. That's just the practical reality of it.
It needs to be tackled on the basis of international treaty and quite quickly and to be taken very seriously by all involved.
It's hugely negative for countries like China too. Even a domestically contained virus like this breaking out again has the potential to collapse an economy or cause massive civil unrest. This incident has cost China probably a couple of trillion too - it's done serious damage to their domestic economy and slumped world demand for Chinese goods.
Whatever the causes, they need to be found and regulated out of existence and if that annoys some traditionalists who like a particular type of market - they'll just have to get over it.
Many public health breakthroughs over the years were simple hygiene measures. Basically sewerage systems and potable water probably saved countless millions of lives. It's often quite simple, non-technical measures like this that are the big breakthroughs in public health.
Firmly held beliefs and traditions do not exempt things from criticism or being hugely problematic.
Great post.0 -
Very informative and disturbing documentary from 60 minutes Austraila :-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEQcvcyzQGE
The Chinese leadership cover-up exposed , and I worry about our own leader trying to build closer ties with it.
The Donald does not come out great either.
Worrying times.
That propaganda piece has been published numerous times. Ozzies are of course terrified of a rising China, so you can see why they would be hostile to it.0 -
We just need to decouple from CCP and Sanction
Keep hearing that, not ever hearing how it would work in practice.
I do agree that selling out industry to Asia ( not just China) is a disaster of historical proportions, but it was western capitalists who did it, and western economists who praised it.
If globalisation collapses then the different regions would be tarriffing each others goods and services. Assuming that a EU/US trade deal would appear in that scenario is insane.
The US would have the choice of one smartphone, a doggier version of the iPhone built with US parts, Asia would have most of the Android phones, and Europeans would have to get used to Nokia again.0 -
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